Finally. Microsoft incorporates iOS into phone link.

[Aaron44126]

2 hours ago, kojack said:

I get spam messages on my imessage now, so I don't think Beeper is going to change anything in that regard.  I am thinking I may just sign up using the mini farm side of beepr and have reliable connection. You did this correct?

 

I was using the "cloud" version of Beeper for a while, but I have not been using it since I got an actual Mac.

[kojack]

4 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

 

I was using the "cloud" version of Beeper for a while, but I have not been using it since I got an actual Mac.

I am probably going to go that route as well.  I need imessage, I do NOT need an iphone.  I just cracked the seal on my pixel 8 pro and OMG what a piece of hardware.  I am not doing anything until I get a case.  The wife is impressed with her's too. 

[Aaron44126]

On 12/11/2023 at 1:24 PM, Aaron44126 said:

Anyway, because of this risk, I fully expect Apple to continue to expend effort getting this blocked, and I will be surprised if they are not at least partly successful by the end of the week.

 

On that point...

[Sandy Bridge]

This has reminded me of Beeper's existence, so I'm now on its likely-long waitlist.

 

I'd love to see chat returned to its '90s/2000's glory days.  Being able to chat from computers with real keyboards, and without all the baggage that social networks bring.  Having a Pidgin equivalent so I don't need 15 applications to reach all the people who use Facebook Messenger or WhatsApp or Signal or Telegram or eleven other options.  They've certainly got the right idea.

 

Not sure if they're going to succeed on the iMessge front against the 8000-pound gorilla, but even if they don't, the other networks probably make it worth it.  Though I would love to be able to have extended iMessage conversations from my PC, like I used to have on AIM.  It's just not fun typing that much on a virtual keyboard; if a conversation is getting lengthy on a phone, I give up on text messaging and make a phone call.  But there was something to be said for the AIM/Yahoo! Messenger/Live Messenger/gChat experience, especially when it wasn't convenient for one side or the other to talk out loud on the phone.

[Aaron44126]

Yeah, I did appreciate having iMessage, Facebook Messenger, and Discord all in one place. I use the latter two infrequently enough though so it is like “meh” and going with separate apps is fine, especially since they don’t really have to be apps, just browser tabs. (I did use Trillian back in the day for a multi-network chat client.)

 

I’ve also been wondering if Beeper is opening themselves up to legal trouble with Apple. They claim that they’re safe because they’re using reverse engineering for interoperability, which is allowed… but they are also trying to make a profit off of someone else’s infrastructure, and if it was not clear before that Apple doesn’t want third parties trying to get in the mix with the iMessage network, it should be now.

[Aaron44126]

Interesting drama here with a bipartisan group of lawmakers asking the DOJ to take a look at Apple's "anti-competitive behavior" as they crack down on Beeper trying to use iMessage.  (Apparently, now approximately 60% of Beeper users can't use iMessage.  Last Wednesday, it was just 5%.)

 

https://www.theverge.com/2023/12/18/24006037/apple-beeper-doj-investigation-imessage-letter-android

 

I highly doubt that the courts would be willing to force Apple to let Beeper utilize their messaging infrastructure without some sort of DMA-like law being passed here in the U.S., and something like that will never get through the current dysfunctional Congress.  However, in the EU they are still trying to figure out if iMessage qualifies as a "core" service under the DMA, and if it does, Apple may be forced to allow interoperability.  (I am wondering if that is the reason for their newfound willingness to implement RCS, to sort of head this off...)

[Aaron44126]

Beeper's latest "fix" requires that you have access to a real Mac, be it yours or your friend's or your uncle's or whatever.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/12/19/24007919/beeper-mini-cloud-android-imessage-fix

 

They're not routing messages through the Mac (as was their old solution), but they do use it to generate "registration data" that can be handed to either Beeper app and use that to access the iMessage network.  The "registration data" must be periodically refreshed, so you've got to keep your Mac powered on.

 

Seems like they were using their "fleet" of Mac servers to provide this registration data before, but Apple has keyed in on a single Mac being used for hundreds or thousands of iMessage connections and is blocking those.

 

This new method might work as long as Beeper's implementation of the protocol is close enough to a real Mac's so that there is nothing in the traffic that could serve as something for Apple to use as a block flag.  However, it is a bit more cumbersome than what they were promoting a few weeks ago and I don't think it will see nearly as much adoption as what they could see if a physical Mac was not required.

[kojack]

On 12/18/2023 at 11:46 AM, Aaron44126 said:

Interesting drama here with a bipartisan group of lawmakers asking the DOJ to take a look at Apple's "anti-competitive behavior" as they crack down on Beeper trying to use iMessage.  (Apparently, now approximately 60% of Beeper users can't use iMessage.  Last Wednesday, it was just 5%.)

 

https://www.theverge.com/2023/12/18/24006037/apple-beeper-doj-investigation-imessage-letter-android

 

I highly doubt that the courts would be willing to force Apple to let Beeper utilize their messaging infrastructure without some sort of DMA-like law being passed here in the U.S., and something like that will never get through the current dysfunctional Congress.  However, in the EU they are still trying to figure out if iMessage qualifies as a "core" service under the DMA, and if it does, Apple may be forced to allow interoperability.  (I am wondering if that is the reason for their newfound willingness to implement RCS, to sort of head this off...)

As far as been reported there is a dma law that states if something is reverse engineered for the purpose of interoperability between platforms etc, it's not illegal.  Beeper knew of this law and I think that is why they did what they did.  They know that law can and more than likely will be upheld.  Beeper = chess. Apple = checkers. 

[Aaron44126]

1 hour ago, kojack said:

As far as been reported there is a dma law that states if something is reverse engineered for the purpose of interoperability between platforms etc, it's not illegal.  Beeper knew of this law and I think that is why they did what they did.  They know that law can and more than likely will be upheld.  Beeper = chess. Apple = checkers. 

 

This is true, but I don't think that is enough to win a case here.  It would be enough if they were just reverse engineering a standalone piece of software.  They make grand claims about wanting to improve message security for everyone...  But, in addition to "reverse engineering", Beeper is accessing Apple's network/server infrastructure without permission, and trying to derive a profit from it (Beeper Mini is supposed to be a subscription app, if they can get it working properly again).  Can you think of any other case where a company has made a successful business model out of piggybacking off of another company's digital infrastructure without permission ...?

 

I imagine that Apple is evaluating their legal options and we'll be hearing something on that front in the next few weeks.  ("Unauthorized access to a computer network" is a crime in and of itself.)

 

Don't forget that they are also open-sourcing everything that they make relating to iMessage interoperability.  Again, they make claims that they are doing this so that everyone can "audit" the security of their integration, but their argument is blatantly incomplete.  This is opening the door for less scrupulous or even malicious clients and bots to be created, and that is definitely not improving security.

 

I don't see a situation where Apple would stand for this.  Short-term, they'll employ technical measures to block Beeper's access to the iMessage network (as we see already).  Medium-term, if Beeper doesn't take the hint, they'll take legal action against Beeper to get them to stop trying.  And long-term, they will make architectural changes to iMessage to make it more resilient against this sort of thing.

 

Even if Beeper could eventually prevail in court, if Apple decides to take legal action then the cost of litigation alone could basically kill them.  Apple has a top-notch team of lawyers and Beeper doesn't really have any revenue stream.  We'll see what happens, but I'm pretty sure that if Apple wants this unsanctioned integration effort to be dead, it is going to end up dead.

 

Finally, even if the EU forces Apple to open up iMessage for interoperability, you can bet that it will be done on Apple's terms and that will mean going through their designated API endpoints and not just allowing anyone pretending to be a legitimate Apple device to get in.

 

The one thing that Beeper can do that Apple wouldn't be able to do much about is what people (including Beeper) have been doing for years.  Route the messages through a real Mac, using an iMessage bridge.  There are other projects like BlueBubbles and AirMessage that do this.  Can't really complain about what people do with their own computers, and it is entirely Apple software running the iMessage traffic.  Apple could still probably (both technically and legally) block mass deployments of this technique i.e. in a Beeper data center, but if individuals want to run a bridge on their own system then what can you do?

[kojack]

I think the charging for the service was the "bait".  They knew Apple would go "nuclear", as steve would say and shut it down right away.  Therefore, getting government involved because of the DMCA act law that states reverse engineering is allowed for purposes of interoperability.  I think that Eric has a good case. Beeper mini was no different than if I had an iPhone and connecting to their server.  That's the point they are going after.  It's going to get interesting.  

 

As for the revenue, Eric has millions of dollars.  He started pebble which Fitbit purchased for 23 million dollars, I am sure he invested ALOT of that and is now quite wealthy from it.  The purchase was in 2017, so he had lots of time to grow his wealth.  

[Aaron44126]

Beeper posted a (draft?) blog post and then retracted it, but it was picked up by archive.org.  They're going to support using a jailbroken iPhone in place of a Mac to generate iMessage registration data.  If you don't have an old iPhone that can be jailbroken, they'll sell you one with everything that you need preloaded, or rent one to you for a monthly fee.

 

There is also this comment:

"Long story short - after today’s release, we will not be continuing to fight a cat-and-mouse game."

Which I take to mean that if Apple finds a way to break this again, they won't be trying harder to make it work ...?  The text next to that indicates that they are posting a response about Apple's response, but there is no link to that post, so I guess it is not ready yet.

[kojack]

2 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

Beeper posted a (draft?) blog post and then retracted it, but it was picked up by archive.org.  They're going to support using a jailbroken iPhone in place of a Mac to generate iMessage registration data.  If you don't have an old iPhone that can be jailbroken, they'll sell you one with everything that you need preloaded, or rent one to you for a monthly fee.

 

There is also this comment:

"Long story short - after today’s release, we will not be continuing to fight a cat-and-mouse game."

Which I take to mean that if Apple finds a way to break this again, they won't be trying harder to make it work ...?  The text next to that indicates that they are posting a response about Apple's response, but there is no link to that post, so I guess it is not ready yet.

I think they are going to push the court case if this fails.  Apple got screwed once this week, time for another go!

[Bullit]

I have a samsung A series and works well with  Phone link. i can see photos and download them easily, make phone calls, get messages(SMS), use phone apps including taking photos remotely. 

[Aaron44126]

3 hours ago, kojack said:

I think they are going to push the court case if this fails.  Apple got screwed once this week, time for another go!

 

Eh, it really seems like they are giving up.

https://blog.beeper.com/p/beeper-moving-forward

[kojack]

Back to Phone Link, I am loving the functionality with it and my P8P. Sharing phones with MrsKojack, messaging from my two PCs, and easy connectivity without fighting with it all the time, is great. A great app for every other device except iPhone. 

[Bullit]

I discovered last week that if i copy a text in my samsung phone it is shared to windows clipboard.

[kojack]

On 1/17/2024 at 10:36 PM, Bullit said:

I discovered last week that if i copy a text in my samsung phone it is shared to windows clipboard.

Yes, the phone link app keeps getting better.  I don't have my Flip 5 connected as it's my work phone.  I still love my Pixel way more, but the flip is a fun device too.