Precision 7670 & 7770 pre-release discussion (Alder Lake)

[Ionising_Radiation]

14 hours ago, Asleep said:

Oh no, that's a 100% deal-killer for me. I must have power and ethernet on the back of a laptop.

I'd say having ports on the back drastically reduces the surface area available for cooling, and in turn reduces the maximum potential performance for a given form factor. Without ports, designers can effectively have the motherboard stop halfway through the chassis and have the entire rear section dedicated to cooling and fans (which looks like what we're going to get, which is really nice). 

 

I already have cables sticking out of all three sides on my laptop (USB mouse and keyboard, USB-C charging cable, USB-C-to-3.5mm adaptor, power, Ethernet); for me, it's a net positive to reduce the number of sides cables are attached to. 

 

That said, I want to have my cake and eat it too: I don't like ports on the side (especially power, what a pain), and I would like both cables on the back and extra cooling. 

[Aaron44126]

14 minutes ago, Ionising_Radiation said:

I'd say having ports on the back drastically reduces the surface area available for cooling, and in turn reduces the maximum potential performance for a given form factor. Without ports, designers can effectively have the motherboard stop halfway through the chassis and have the entire rear section dedicated to cooling and fans (which looks like what we're going to get, which is really nice).

 

After mulling it over for a few days now, I am basically in agreement with you here.

 

I'd like to keep the ports on the back but I'm willing to trade them off for the increased cooling potential that it looks like we are getting.  I really just care about power and Ethernet on the back.  At least they put these together at the very back of the left side.  I'll use a right angle adapter for power to get the plug pointed "backwards" and I think that it will be fine, actually not very different than the normal position of the power jack (before 7X50).  Ethernet can just bend around and I will tie the Ethernet and power cords together.

 

(Used to using right angle adapters to free up space.  On both of my current systems, I use a right-angle USB adapter on the right side for the mouse, and also for a 3.5mm headset.)

 

I would say, if you don't want the increased cooling potential, you could look at Precision 3000-series which should have Alder Lake H CPUs and not HX....  But it looks like those are going to have ports on the side, too.  😕  The model shown briefly at the Intel CES presentation seems to have an identical port configuration to the existing Precision 3560/3561 systems.

[Asleep]

Aaron, didn’t you have a 7760 and returned it? What was your experience with it, good & bad?

 

 I kinda need to buy something soon and the 7770 seems to be at least months away from being deliverable. 
 

I’ve always appreciated how dead quiet my M6700 remained, liked the heat exhaust and ethernet/power out the back. 

[Aaron44126]

1 hour ago, Asleep said:

Aaron, didn’t you have a 7760 and returned it? What was your experience with it, good & bad?

 

I've never seen a 7760.  I do have a 7560 as my work system and I like it.  The best thing about it is the new fan management system that Dell has implemented — the fans can run at much more granular levels now, they are often running around 1000-1200 RPM (on but silent) whereas previous systems had no speeds for them to run at between 0 and ≈2300.  I have never considered the M6700 to be "dead silent".  It has a fan cycling on-off behavior that really bothers me and led to me producing fan management software to control how it behaves.

 

The worst thing about the 7560 for me is the PCIe4 "drive disappearing" issue which I have addressed in the second post of the 7X60 owner's thread here.  I don't like taking off the bottom cover, since it "wraps around" the sides of the chassis and also covers up the ports, I feel like I am pressing down on the USB-C ports and getting them bent out of position when I am putting it back on.  Oh, and there's the lack of dedicated Home/End and PgUp/PgDn keyboard buttons which I ended up solving for myself with some "creative" key remapping.  Otherwise, I can't think of any issues with it really, it does its job well.

[Ionising_Radiation]

5 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

Oh, and there's the lack of dedicated Home/End and PgUp/PgDn keyboard buttons which I ended up solving for myself with some "creative" key remapping. 

What I ended up doing was to just disable Num Lock, and enable it when needed (I need Home and End more often than I need the numpad). With an external keyboard I keep it enabled, because I have a 100% keyboard. 

[Aaron44126]

7 hours ago, Ionising_Radiation said:

What I ended up doing was to just disable Num Lock, and enable it when needed (I need Home and End more often than I need the numpad). With an external keyboard I keep it enabled, because I have a 100% keyboard. 

 

I was going to say, "No way I can do this because I use the numpad to enter special characters all of the time."  Things like Alt+0151 for em dash —.

 

...But I tried it just now and this actually works whether num lock is on or off.  So, maybe I will experiment with this too and see how I like it...

[Aaron44126]

This just in.  Consumer Alder Lake CPUs support ECC memory.  (Workstation chipset required.)

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-enables-ecc-on-12th-gen-core-cpus

 

So, it seems likely that there will be no differentiation between workstation and non-workstation CPUs for the Alder Lake HX line.  (Alder Lake H CPUs have the chipset built in, so they will not have ECC support unless separate workstation versions are introduced.)

[Aaron44126]

Link

 

2022.02.22 = Дата регистрации нотификации / Registration date

2022.03.04 = Дата публикации нотификации / Publication date

 

Also interesting: Precision 5470 and 5570 models (no 5770?), also some XPS, and AMD G15+Alienware systems.

 

For context: Precision 7560/7760 was registered on 2021-03-01, formally announced on 2021-05-11 (with Intel's Tiger Lake H45 announcement), and orderable on 2021-06-15.

[Aaron44126]

Core i9-12900HX showed up on GeekBench.  8P+8E, 2.5 GHz base, 4.9 GHz boost (or so it appears — that's probably the maximum clock speed that occurred during this run).

https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/4414406

[Aaron44126]

Intel is now saying that they're going to have a presentation on their new Arc laptop GPUs on March 30.  This will probably be followed by new laptop model announcements from various manufacturers.

 

...Not expecting Alder Lake HX or Precision 7X70 news at this event, but we could maybe see news for XPS or Precision 3000/5000 systems?  Precision "3570" was shown briefly at CES 2022 and it will be available with the new Intel Arc dGPU.

 

[Edit]

Found this page on Precision 3570.  Not sure how valid these details are or where they came from but it looks reasonable to me.

https://www.laptop6.com/us/laptops/dell/precision-3570-(2022)-8850

I've been really curious about Dell's Windows 10 / Alder Lake support and this is the first real hint of it.  All of their currently shipping Alder Lake systems ship with Windows 11 only.  (I'm still thinking Microsoft may backport some Thread Director support to Windows 10.  Dell/OEMs would probably already know of these plans, under NDA, and Dell would be waiting for that to happen before shipping Alder Lake business systems.)

[serpro69]

On 3/15/2022 at 12:36 PM, Aaron44126 said:

I'm still thinking Microsoft may backport some Thread Director support to Windows 10

 

What if that doesn't happen (or takes too long). I really wouldn't bet on Microsoft to accommodate users in a good and timely way when it comes to this. I wonder if that would delay Dell's Alder Lake business systems, or they'd just ship them with Win11.

[Aaron44126]

On 3/17/2022 at 5:00 AM, serpro69 said:

What if that doesn't happen (or takes too long). I really wouldn't bet on Microsoft to accommodate users in a good and timely way when it comes to this. I wonder if that would delay Dell's Alder Lake business systems, or they'd just ship them with Win11.

 

Well if that doesn't happen, I'm planning to run Windows 10 on Alder Lake anyway (until such a time that there is a LTSC Windows 11 release).  It isn't that bad, there are just some edge cases where you have to sort of be aware of how the process scheduler works.

 

References:

• Most tests show Windows 10 and 11 performance basically the same on Alder Lake, with Windows 11 a tad faster in some cases.
• Tests involving below normal priority processes show pretty bad performance from Windows 10 + Alder Lake.
• Handbreak forum has a good post on this issue.

Windows 10 schedules below normal priority processes on E cores only by default.  Ways around this are: App developers can update their app to accommodate for this behavior; configure affected processes to run at "normal" priority instead of "below normal" or "low"; or, use the "High performance" Windows power profile which does not have this scheduling behavior.

 

Not sure what Dell will do if Microsoft does not take action.  I don't expect them to delay Alder Lake business systems past mid-year.  They're clearly working on a number of models — in addition to the Precision model number "leaks" that I've been posting in this thread, it's not hard to find Latitude ones as well.  I also don't think they'd offer them with Windows 11 only (they've got to know businesses won't like that).  Maybe they will offer them with Windows 10 or 11, and a disclaimer of some sort if you choose Windows 10.

 

[Edit]

Oh, I also wanted to mention that the Intel Alder Lake game dev guide has a direct (but vague) reference to thread director being (partially) backported.  You can just search the page for "backport" to find it.

[serpro69]

On 3/17/2022 at 11:28 AM, Aaron44126 said:

Well if that doesn't happen, I'm planning to run Windows 10 on Alder Lake anyway (until such a time that there is a LTSC Windows 11 release). 

 

Yeah, I'm not planning to move to Win11 myself, maybe not even when LTSC comes out, but that really depends on the state of Win11 and what LTSC itself has under the hood at that time. And besides, my main daily OS is still Linux and I switch to Windows only for gaming. So all in all, I couldn't care less if MS decides to backport thread director to Win10 or not.

But it would be a shame if Win10 compatibility with Alder Lake would somehow delay Dell releasing mobile Precision series. Although, I don't think that would actually happen. In the end, however much pressure MS puts on them when it comes to software, Dell and other OEMs have first and foremost their own business to think of.

[Aaron44126]

3 minutes ago, serpro69 said:

But it would be a shame if Win10 compatibility with Alder Lake would somehow delay Dell releasing mobile Precision series. Although, I don't think that would actually happen.

 

I don't think it will happen either.  If Microsoft is going to take action to improve the Windows 10 / Alder Lake process scheduling "situation", I'd be surprised if they have not shared their plans (including timing) with OEMs (under NDA).

 

So I can think of three likely scenarios for Microsoft backporting ITD to Windows 10.

1. Microsoft releases the backport as a fix to Windows 10 (version 21H2) within the next few months, as part of one of the cumulative updates; they've been holding it back as a "carrot" to get more people to upgrade to Windows 11, but realize that isn't going to go over with larger businesses which take more time to move.  It would make sense to line up this release with the push of Alder Lake business systems, which will be happening in the next few months, and there may be some light coordination between Microsoft and OEMs on this.  (I sort of expect this to happen by June, if it's going to happen at all.)
2. Microsoft will release the backport as part of Windows 10 (version 22H2), which we know is coming this fall.  That seems a bit late to me, but it could happen.  (It will be mildly disappointing if there's no way to get it active on Windows 10 LTSC 2021, but I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to do that.)
3. Microsoft doesn't backport ITD support to Windows 10 at all.

So what does Dell do?

1. In the case of #1, Microsoft and Dell have already come to some understanding of when Windows 10 ITD support will be available and when new systems will be launching.  A Windows 10 build option should be available at launch or very shortly afterwards.
2. In the case of #2, Dell releases products when they are ready.  A Windows 10 build option might not be available until around the end of the year.
3. In the case of #3, Dell releases products when they are ready, and they might be available with Windows 11 only (especially if Microsoft has some sort of OEM sales requirement that new systems can be made available with the latest version of Windows only — yucky but wouldn't surprise me either).

I think that the next interesting milestone is Intel's event on March 30.  Even if you don't care about the Intel laptop dGPUs, a pile of new systems will surely be announced right after it is done, and some interesting tidbits regarding the next round of laptops should come out of that.

[Aaron44126]

Precision 7670 and 7770 bottom panels... now for sale on eBay 🙂

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284573177524

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284568053404

[Asleep]

12 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

Precision 7670 and 7770 bottom panels... now for sale on eBay 🙂

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284573177524

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284568053404

Power and ethernet right up against one another on the side. 

[Ionising_Radiation]

20 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

bottom panels

I'm very curious to see what they are going to do with the hinges. A return to full 180°+ hinges would be nice. 

[rahasyavadi]

On 3/18/2022 at 10:17 AM, Aaron44126 said:

Precision 7670 and 7770 bottom panels... now for sale on eBay 🙂

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284573177524

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284568053404

 

Seeing the width-to-height ratios on both, I figure that the 7760 will be 16:10 but that the 7770 will be 16:9 unless they fill the bottom chin with screen this time.

[Aaron44126]

22 hours ago, Ionising_Radiation said:

I'm very curious to see what they are going to do with the hinges. A return to full 180°+ hinges would be nice. 

 

I've been wondering what that big "cutout" on the left and right side of the back (around where the hinge should be) is for.  Mostly though, I am wondering if they are going to stick three fans in this thing (it looks like there are three heat exhaust holes).  And if they are beefing up the cooling, I am wondering if they will also start including a larger power supply, as the 240W could be maxed out if they actually significantly increase the power limit on the CPU/GPU.

 

10 hours ago, rahasyavadi said:

Seeing the width-to-height ratios on both, I figure that the 7760 will be 16:10 but that the 7770 will be 16:9 unless they fill the bottom chin with screen this time.

 

That would be an interesting situation, forcing people to decide between 16:10 or slightly improved performance + an extra NVMe slot.  (With the form factor shakeup, 7670 having lower power limits or fewer NVMe slots is certainly not confirmed.)  Anyway, we do have images of the 7770 display back panel as well, and while it's tough to determine exactly where the screen would go...  If it is something like this, then it is indeed 16:9.  (See red outline.)

 

 

Assuming they stick with pretty narrow bezels on the left and right like they have right now, 16:10 would have to look something like this (doesn't really seem realistic).

 

[rahasyavadi]

I agree: from the photo evidence you show, 7770 is highly likely to be 16:9. In that case, a 5770, if offered, would be the best Precision candidate for my use, because it would be 16:10 17". I do not expect to be in the mood to settle for 16", and definitely not 16:9 17", and the better thermal envelopes of the 7760 and 7770 would not be necessary for me, although welcome.

[Aaron44126]

16 hours ago, rahasyavadi said:

In that case, a 5770, if offered, would be the best Precision candidate for my use, because it would be 16:10 17".

 

I was wondering about this because 5770 didn't show up with the other XX70 models that I have seen reference too.

 

So, I found this spreadsheet from Dell (dell.com domain name even) which lists some Precision 5770 parts on the second tab (along with Precision 3570/3571, and Precision 5470/5570).  Even though it is a "desktops" tab, they are clearly labeled as "Mobile Precision Workstation".

 

So yes, I'd think that it is coming.  (A bit disappointing to me if they offer 16:10 for the 7670 and 5770, but not for the 7770.)

 

No hackery involved, just a Google search.  It's one thing for their supply chain to be leaking, but this comes right from the source 🙂

 

Ah!  In the spreadsheet is reference to this PDF file, which appears to be a full parts list with prices, updated weekly!  That could be interesting to glance through for new product stuff...  It's over 18,000 pages long though.

 

[Edit]

Found these part numbers possibly referencing the Precision 7770.

 

1MKVH CVR,BTM,FHD,DGPU,7770 U $19.99
329-BEJE MOD,CHAS,7770,D,NT-4K,IR-C,PLA V $320.00
340-DBNW MOD,PLCMT,QSG,WW,7770 V $99,999.00
346-BIEU MOD,PLMRST,SC ONLY,SP,7770 V $99,999.00
346-BIEV MOD,PLMRST,FPDP/SC/NFC,SP,7770 V $99,999.00
346-BIEW MOD,PLMRST,NO SECTY,SP,7770 V $99,999.00
346-BIEZ MOD,PLMRST,FPDP/SC,SP,7770 V $99,999.00
346-BIFB MOD,PLMRST,FPSY/SC/NFC,SP,7770 V $99,999.00
354-BBFH MOD,DOOR,BTM,WT,7770 V $99,999.00
354-BBFI MOD,DOOR,BTM,SC,WT,7770 V $99,999.00
354-BBFJ MOD,DOOR,BTM,SC+SSD,WT,7770 V $99,999.00
381-1287 CFI,INFO,BIOS,7770,1.0.0,FACT Z $0.00
382-5626 CFI,INFO,7770,1.0.0,FACT Z $0.00
620-ABOJ MOD,FSD,RUSB,7770 V $99,999.00

 

Mostly the different chassis options (fingerprint reader, smartcard, SSD door, etc.) with placeholder prices, though the second one appears to be the non-touch 4K+IR camera display option.  Saw references to other Precision systems in this batch (7670, 5770, etc.) around the same places as these.

 

Also saw this right next to the 7770 4K display option -- is Precision 7470 a thing?  There are no existing "7470" Dell models that these options would make sense for.  Maybe they are going for a smaller and larger 16:10 model, and then a 17" 16:9 model? 

 

Who knows if that second digit really matches up with the screen size in that case.  I wish they had posted dimensions with those chassis bottom cover pages.  A 16" 16:10 panel is weird (other than for MacBooks).  "7670" model number might just be used to differentiate it from 17" 16:9 7770.  (17.3" 16:9 is technically "bigger" than 17.0" 16:10.)

 

[Edit 2]

Precision 5770 confirmed (again).

3570/3571 and 5470/5570/5770 have QSG ("quick setup guide") entries but 7X70 does not.  Those are probably launching first (as expected).  Maybe we'll hear about them after Intel's March 30 event.

[serpro69]

I could understand 5470 as an "ultra-light" (probably not ultra-light, but still lighter and more compact) version of the 5x70 series, but 7470... I'm not sure that makes much sense for me.

 

Very interesting discoveries @Aaron44126.

[Aaron44126]

So, I was thinking "maybe 7670 has a 17" 16:10 display" with 7470 filling the hole for a smaller Precision 7000 system.  (Note, not sure that 7470 is a thing at all — the only possible reference to it is what I have in the screenshot above.)

 

With the lack of "dimensions" available, I took to counting the air intake "slats" on the bottom of the Precision 7670 and 7770 chassis to see if we could get a feel for the size difference between the systems.

 

7670 = 128 slats

7770 = 145 slats

 

Assuming the slats are roughly the same size and distance apart...

If 7670 really had a 17" 16:10 display, I'd expect them to have a much closer count than that...  With a 13% difference, I'm leaning towards the idea that 7670 has a 15" 16:10 display (same as 5560/5570/XPS 15) and the model number bump is more to indicate that it is an "upgrade" in screen size over the 7560.

 

Also suspecting Precision 5470 is basically an XPS 13.

 

Nothing concrete.  Just my supposition.  We probably won't find out for sure until these systems are actually announced.

[rahasyavadi]

In "1MKVH CVR,BTM,FHD,DGPU,7770 U $19.99", the "FHD" portion apparently indicates (if not published in error) that the 7770 offers a 16:9 1920x1080 screen; Dell calls a 16:10 1920x1200 screen "FHD+".

[Ionising_Radiation]

14 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

I found this spreadsheet from Dell

14 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

Ah!  In the spreadsheet is reference to this PDF file, which appears to be a full parts list with prices, updated weekly!  That could be interesting to glance through for new product stuff...  It's over 18,000 pages long though.

Holy crap, these resources are pure gold, direct from the horse's mouth! I hope they don't close off access to these files; it's very nice to see future details coming through.