Precision 7670 & 7770 pre-release discussion (Alder Lake)

[yslalan]

The highest-end mobile chip which has been released by Nvidia is NVIDIA RTX A5500 16GB VRAM.

From what we know, A5500 has almost the same chip as the RTX 3080ti mobile. Only if there is an RTX3090 mobile or something, there would be an equivalent RTXA6000 mobile provided on MWS.

1000nits Display - that may be possible if Dell wants to use mini-LED

Those SSD specs are totally bullshit, we cannot expect Dell to equip 4 U.2 or E1.L SSD on such a "tiny" laptop

Xeon W-12985 - Why there is no "m" suffix here

Dedicated Southbridge is suspicious, I suppose the 12th gen H series chip has integrated the southbridge on-chip.

 

IT home is a kind of large media platform sharing technology-oriented news in China. That's ridiculous to just post a piece of news based on an unreliable source. I saw many websites forward their article lol.

[Aaron44126]

45 minutes ago, yslalan said:

Dedicated Southbridge is suspicious, I suppose the 12th gen H series chip has integrated the southbridge on-chip.

 

It's been understood for a while now that Alder Lake HX ("S-BGA") will not have an integrated PCH like the H series CPUs do.  It will be a separate component on the motherboard like it is for the Alder Lake S (desktop) CPUs, and also like it is with Tiger Lake H45.  I believe this allows for a more robust PCIe configuration than you could get with Alder Lake H (full 16-lane PCIe4 GPU connection + 4×4 PCIe4 NVMe drives, etc.).

 

A5500 (mobile) and RTX 3080 Ti (mobile) both use the GA103S chip from NVIDIA with practically identical specs.  A difference that I saw is ECC vRAM for the A5500 (and A4500).  Going any higher would require a GA102 chip which doesn't seem feasible for a laptop right now.

[Frosty]

On 4/16/2022 at 10:58 AM, Aaron44126 said:

Not sure if this is real, but, notes:

• 64GB max ECC memory?
• Not sure what this business is with CAMM interposers for the memory.  Is CAMM a new replacement for SODIMM?  I can’t find any information about this; maybe it is Dell proprietary like DGFF?
• PCIe4 for all NVMe slots.
• Looks like you might need a battery upgrade to fit 4 NVMe drives in the 7770.
• (Not that worried about it saying A5000 instead of A5500, probably a misprint of sorts, there is ample evidence that A5500 is coming to both systems.  Thought that only one of them was getting Intel Arc graphics, though…)

I came across this article that mentions CAMM:  https://videocardz.com/newz/dell-precision-7670-laptop-to-feature-compression-attached-ddr5-memory-module

[Aaron44126]

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

I came across this article that mentions CAMM:  https://videocardz.com/newz/dell-precision-7670-laptop-to-feature-compression-attached-ddr5-memory-module

Cool, that’s from the same guy who “leaked” the stuff I posted yesterday…

• First photo of the 7670 (completely assembled anyway).  Nice thin bezels (can’t see the top though).  Chassis cutouts do appear to be to support the hinge, which has a new design.
• 7670 has “thin” or “performance” chassis options (as @yslalan mentioned).
• OLED display, 16:10, 500 nits.
• CAMM is a Dell proprietary interface for memory modules, as I speculated.  It seems that you can somehow install SODIMM modules, with an adapter, but you have to use CAMM to get 128GB of RAM in the system.  So, probably CAMM is just about increasing memory density (per module) and saving physical space over SODIMM.

[yslalan]

That newly designed hinge on 7670 makes it look like a convertible laptop.

Precision 7670 (That's thin version I guess)

Precision 5530 2in1

2 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

Cool, that’s from the same guy who “leaked” the stuff I posted yesterday…

• First photo of the 7670 (completely assembled anyway).  Nice thin bezels (can’t see the top though).  Chassis cutouts do appear to be to support the hinge, which has a new design.
• 7670 has “thin” or “performance” chassis options (as @yslalan mentioned).
• OLED display, 16:10, 500 nits.
• CAMM is a Dell proprietary interface for memory modules, as I speculated.  It seems that you can somehow install SODIMM modules, with an adapter, but you have to use CAMM to get 128GB of RAM in the system.  So, probably CAMM is just about increasing memory density (per module) and saving physical space over SODIMM.

 

[Aaron44126]

56 minutes ago, yslalan said:

That newly designed hinge on 7670 makes it look like a convertible laptop.

7770 has similar “cutouts” in both the bottom chassis cover and the display enclosure, so it seems like it will have a similar hinge.

 

At the very least, it should be able to lay flat 180 degrees again.

[Ionising_Radiation]

Oh man, these new Precisions look really good. Slight bummer about the (proprietary) CAMM—it looks like they are dropping to 64 GB SODIMMs only because there will only be 2 slots, and the CAMM is needed to go up to 128 GB.

I am also betting the DGFF also changes this time around. 

Even so, I am going to see if my university is nice enough to bump my 7560 up...

[Aaron44126]

14 hours ago, Ionising_Radiation said:

I am also betting the DGFF also changes this time around.

 

It looks like the left-side port configuration is (back to front):

Power, Ethernet, HDMI, USB A, USB C, USB C

(No space in between the ports really.)

 

...So, with no mDP, it seems like a sure thing that the DGFF physical form factor is changed.  ...I can't even figure out how they could have HDMI attached directly to the card, like they have had in the Precision since DGFF was introduced.  (You'd think surrounding Ethernet and USB ports would need to be attached to the main logic board.)  So it may be the case that the HDMI port connects though the system display mux (like the USB-C ports do on the Precision 7X30-7X60) and the DGFF card has no direct output ports at all.

 

(Edit: Especially the case since the CAMM card seems to be pretty close to the HDMI port as well.  The CAMM card would be near the CPU.  The DGFF card must be more on the other side of the system.)

 

You can see a CAMM module illustration in this picture.  Lots of memory chips piled on.  Presumably, these would be double-sided like DIMMs are, so there are just as many on the other side.  Not sure but it seems likely to me that there are just two of these slots and one of them will still be hidden under the keyboard.

 

 

Weighing out 128GB RAM vs 64GB ECC RAM and I'm definitely leaning towards the former.  DDR5 does have on-die ECC which does have partial protection (fixing errors in memory on the chip, but not errors in transmission).  This guy explains it pretty well.

 

 

[Aaron44126]

So, this is interesting.  I found these entries in the parts list — some CAMM, some DIMM.  128GB is listed as "1×128".  Also, I think the bottom chunk is for modules purchased separately as aftermarket upgrades (hence placeholder prices).  It also lists a 128GB option, so it seems that you could buy a single module with 128GB capacity.

 

 

Maybe there is just one CAMM slot, and if you use the SODIMM interposer/adapter, it somehow provides two SODIMM slots via the single CAMM slot?

 

Also...  128GB is listed as 3600 speed and not 4800?  Is it DDR4?  If that's the case, I will have to think harder about the tradeoff.

 

[Edit]

Yesterday's leak photo does specifically say 128GB DDR5.  I can't find anything out there on existing DDR5 modules that run at a speed that low, though.

 

[Edit 2]

Looking at "NS" (non-ECC) options vs. CAMM, the SODIMM route seems to be a little cheaper.  We'll see if that holds true when you can actually order a system.

[Peksha]

5 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

Также... 128 ГБ указана как скорость 3600, а не 4800? Это DDR4? Если это так, мне нужно больше думать о компромиссе.

It's desktop CPU specs for 128 GB. Only 3600MHz for 2DPC 2R dimms. And max 4400 MHz if you setup 1dimm (64GB using 1 channel via CAMM??))

This CAMM is a very strange option. the most logical thing is not to offer such a solution at all. It is likely that the next generation will receive a normal 128GB DDR5 support if the implementation for DDR4 is removed.

 

[yslalan]

6 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

Also...  128GB is listed as 3600 speed and not 4800?  Is it DDR4?  If that's the case, I will have to think harder about the tradeoff.

That speed is really interesting, you can also check on some Precision desktop model with the 12th gen intel, the 128G memory all run @3600Mhz.

Precision Tower 3660 spec sheet

[Aaron44126]

6 hours ago, Peksha said:

It's desktop CPU specs for 128 GB. Only 3600MHz for 2DPC 2R dimms. And max 4400 MHz if you setup 1dimm (64GB using 1 channel via CAMM??))

 

4 hours ago, yslalan said:

That speed is really interesting, you can also check on some Precision desktop model with the 12th gen intel, the 128G memory all run @3600Mhz.

 

Thanks for the feedback.  Indeed, if the 128GB CAMM module was DDR4, I was thinking that maybe I'd just get a 64GB CAMM module (DDR5) and see if they would release a 128GB DDR5 module in 2023 for the Precision 7X80 systems.

 

But, 3600 does seem to be the correct speed for 128GB @ DDR5, so it looks like all of the configurations will be DDR5.  When I was looking at "example configurations" I guess I ignored the very high capacity workstation DIMMs, which I should not have.  Also, 3600 is probably a bit too high for that amount of memory at DDR4.

 

Lower speed doesn't bother me too much (presumably CL will also be lower).

 

@Peksha, I guess if they can offer a module that uses 128GB via two channels, it makes sense that they could offer a module using 64GB via one channel.  I think that Dell's goal with CAMM is to be able to offer high-capacity memory configurations with less physical space than 4 SODIMMs need, so it will probably be sticking around for future generations (and maybe it will even spill over into other product lines like Alienware, as DGFF did).  Hopefully, the modules will have some degree of compatibility between systems and generations.

 

[Edit]

Crazy to think that 128GB of RAM will fit on a single CAMM card.  Looking at the photo, though, it looks like there is some room to make the CAMM card longer and stick another row of memory chips on it.

[Aaron44126]

Precision 3470 has not been formally announced, but the spec sheet is live.  It could launch soon along with the other Precision 3000 & 5000 systems.

• Alder Lake P CPUs
• Up to 64GB DDR5 RAM
• 14" 1080p panel
• NVIDIA T550 graphics (4GB) - optional

Precision 7X70 spec sheet pages have been posted, but are locked down at the moment.

 

[Edit]

Someone posted 7670 and 7770 spec sheet pages —

https://www.docdroid.net/JzfmNLV/precision-7670-spec-sheet-pdf

https://www.docdroid.net/FjViEwl/precision-7770-spec-sheet-pdf

Have other stuff to do right now but I will digest and post back soon.......

[Aaron44126]

Precision 7670

• The dGPU that you choose seems to determine which chassis you will get ("thin" vs. "performance").
• There is a UHD+ OLED panel listed as 400 nits.  (Yesterday's leak said 500 nits.)  There is a FHD+ panel that is 500 nits.  (There is another cheapo FHD+ display that is 250 nits.  Don't get that.)  No non-OLED 4K option.  (Wonder about burn-in, if you have the system for many years?)  All displays are 60Hz.
• "Thin" vs "Performance" dimensions and weight are listed in the spec sheet.  I think the difference is pretty minimal, you'd probably have to look closely to tell the difference.

Precision 7770

• Just two display options, FHD and UHD; no OLED; UHD is still 120Hz.
• For thermals it says: "Advanced thermals (vapor chambers, DOO fans, GORE™)"; not sure what those last two mean.
  • [Edit] Actually found this in the document:
    Dual Opposing Output (DOO) fan with liquid polymer blades
    Dual intake venting
    Thermal insulated material, GORE™
  • I think "Dual opposing output" just means that the air goes out both sides of the fan enclosure, as seen in the illustration below?
• One of the leak slides mentioned an "upsell battery" is necessary for four NVMe drive slots.  I think that this may have been inaccurate.  There are two battery options available; 83 WHr and 93 WHr.  You'd think, if anything, the smaller battery would be needed to gain an NVMe slot.  I don't see anything in the spec sheet about a configuration change depending on which battery you select.  (7670 has the same battery options, and I'd expect that they'd use the exact same battery part between the two systems.)

Both

• There appears to be visible antennas on the front/sides of the system.  (WLAN antennas, I guess?)
• Looks like the touchpad is now a MacBook-like "clickpad" (no buttons at the bottom).
• As expected, Alder Lake HX "Core" CPUs only; no Xeon or other workstation-specific CPUs on offer.
• Not clear what the difference between i9-12900 and i9-12950 is, other than maybe vPro?  (Same for 12800/12850.)
  • [Edit] Actually, base frequency for P cores is different between 12800 and 12850.
• It looks like CAMM memory configurations up to 128GB will be available at launch, with SODIMM configurations available "soon" after.
• 7670 says three NVMe slots, 7770 says four.
• GeForce 3080 Ti is listed on the spec sheet in both systems.  GeForce is no longer a fully "hidden" configuration item.  I guess it is still not clear if you can only order it through a rep or if it will show as an option on the web site.  (I've got to decide between 3080 Ti and RTX A5500.  Any thoughts?)
• Intel Arc graphics not listed, not even with "coming soon" text.
• HDR 500 support is listed for the UHD panels in both systems.
• Both systems have 180W and 240W power adapters listed in the spec sheet.  Maybe which you get depends on which CPU/GPU you have configured?  (A little sad that 240W power is still the cap, but at least with NVIDIA Dynamic Boost 2.0, power can shift between the CPU/GPU better depending on the load.  And... at least I can reuse all of my existing PSUs.)
• Webcam finally bumped (back) up to 1080p...  (Didn't 7X60 have a 720p webcam?)
• WLAN card is Intel AX211.  Prior-gen got AX210.  I think that AX211 is not a standalone NGFF card, it is CNVi and partly relies on the Intel system/chipset support for Wi-Fi?
• WD19DCS is still listed as the dock for these systems.  No new dual-connect dock.
• Windows 10/11 "Pro for Workstations" is not listed as available.  No more MS cash grab for workstation CPUs.
• Can't find a good shot of the keyboard to see if it is different at all...  I can tell that the number of keys from "Esc" to "Delete" is the same as before.
• I was wondering if Ethernet would be higher than one gigabit.  There is nothing in the spec sheet about the Ethernet speed (so I think that it is unlikely that they improved it).

[Aaron44126]

There is a shot of the cooling system.  Still a two-fan design, but far from the design you typically see in high-end laptops.  The image is the same in both spec sheets so I'm not sure which system it is.  (Probably the layout is pretty much the same in both.)

 

 

Definitely wondering about the effectiveness of the huge rear exhaust port, if the fans are both on one side.

 

[Edit]

Actually you can see the position of three NVMe drives slots, WWAN and Wi-Fi cards, and the CAMM module.  (Aside from CAMM, the layout of these slots looks pretty similar to 7X50 and 7X60.)  I'm supposing this is 7670.

 

[Edit 2] Guessing the CPU is in the "top right" here, where the black thing is, and that thing is a vapor chamber.  GPU must be just to the left of that.

 

[Edit 3] Hmm, wait, does this mean that there is actually some degree of active cooling for the primary NVMe drive slot now?

[Ionising_Radiation]

Now that I see the full spec sheet, my reactions are mixed.

 

Many of these changes are great—16:10 display, new hinge, slimmer chassis, massive power and cooling improvements, year-on-year spec bump, quad speakers in front so the laptop can be used in clamshell mode.

 

At the same time, Dell has sacrificed and removed things that have been so useful, like mDP (has Dell marketing really surmised that none of their customers uses it?), the physical buttons for the trackpad, 4 SODIMM slots, moving to the CNVi version of the AX210, aka AX211... 

 

In many ways, the 7670/7770 chassis are a bit of a step back from the 7530/7730. Definitely the latter were a pain to take apart, but at least they were almost entirely modular, down to the cables for the track pad. I'm thoroughly not fond of the proprietary direction Dell has taken for the memory—the Precision 7000s were the last bastions of not-crazy-thick notebooks with 4 SODIMM slots. 

 

I guess this is the XPS effect bleeding over to the Precision 7000s. 

 

One wonders what HP has in store for its ZBook Fury G9...

[rzamz]

1 hour ago, Ionising_Radiation said:

One wonders what HP has in store for its ZBook Fury G9...

 

I also considered the ZBook Fury series, but GPU performance was quite poor for the A5000:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/HP-ZBook-Fury-15-G8-workstation-review-The-Quadro-RTX-A5000-is-a-beast.570149.0.html

"GPU board power draw would stabilize at 78 W when running gaming loads compared to its 90 W TGP target. We're able to attain a draw of 93 W albeit only for a short period during the start of the test."

 

Maybe the upcoming Lenovo P16 will be a worthy competitor for a user who needs higher GPU performance.

[wallstreetbets]

So there is no 7570 coming right, just 7670/7770?

 

I guess Intel is not going to release Xeon mobiles for this? So no ECC RAM going forward? This also means Windows for Workstations is dead

[Asleep]

I'm going to see if I can find a right angle down RJ45 adapter and a 90* backwards RJ45 adapter to get the ethernet cable down and under that power line with the rear of the laptop elevated. 

 

I expect the power in will already be right angle... if not I'd have to get a 90* for that, too. 

 

I dunno... this XPS 17 is looking better and better short term.  

[Aaron44126]

4 hours ago, Ionising_Radiation said:

Now that I see the full spec sheet, my reactions are mixed.

 

Trying not to play the Dell/Precision fanboy.  I have mixed reactions as well.  However, having watched what Dell is doing with these systems for over a decade...  I can say that I understand their decision making (even if I don't agree with it all the way) and, to an extent, it seems like the Precision 7X70 couldn't have turned out any other way.  Everything I see is like, "Well, of course they did that."

 

Got to keep in mind...

• Dell is, of course, under pressure to shrink the system while also increasing performance and cooling potential; generally, they have been delivering on this every time they refresh the chassis.
• Especially given that these systems are mostly purchased by businesses and not by individuals, the percentage of people who do GPU upgrades or even simpler things like swapping out memory modules is a tiny slice of their target market.
• Dell aside, the selection of high-end systems is going to be smaller than ever before, with Intel "dumbing down" Alder Lake H (compared to Tiger Lake H), in terms of memory support & PCIe lanes...  I'd only be interested in Alder Lake HX systems and it seems like there aren't going to be that many to choose from, as most OEMs have already launched flagship gaming laptops with Alder Lake H.  I honestly don't know where else I would turn to other than Dell.  HP seems to consistently under-deliver compared to Dell (offering systems with comparable specs that are a bit larger, typically a bit more expensive, and perform a bit worse).  I don't really trust Lenovo, and no one else has the track record for workstation-class laptops.

So, I don't want to sound like I'm going against or belittling your opinions, just adding in my takes:

• Modulatiry in general.  I don't feel like this is gone.  The memory module is still a separate, discrete component, even if it is not SODIMM.  The GPU module is still separate (presumably), even if it is not MXM.  They should still have a separate trackpad cable and such.
• Serviceability in general.  It remains to be seen how the Precision 7X70 will fare here, but Dell is one of the only (or maybe the only) major laptop vendors that provides full servicing instructions with pictures and everything, with no special membership or cost required to access the information.  (There have been some blatant missteps here, like making the coin cell battery hard to access in the newer Precision systems.)
• mDP.  Honestly, don't care, I was expecting this to happen.  I feel like the industry is moving to USB-C  over mDP for display output.  It gives you a multi-purpose port; USB-C can carry a DisplayPort signal.  USB-C to DP/mDP adapters are cheap and easy to find.  If you don't want a dongle sitting around, you can just get a USB-C to DisplayPort cable to connect to a monitor (that's what I plan to do).  HDMI is obviously not going anywhere as long as it is the standard on projectors and TVs.  (Apple, king of dongle-land, even went and put the HDMI port back on their latest laptops.)
• Trackpad.  Basically ambivalent.  I never use it, I carry a mouse everywhere.  But...  I guess I feel like a "clickpad" would not be bad if they can match the level of responsiveness that you'd see on a modern MacBook and also offer a similar tactile feel to the "clicking" function.  I've always felt like the touchpad in Precision systems was on the passable-but-mediocre side.  (I haven't tried the trackpad on the newer XPS systems.  I know that they've been working on it.)
• CAMM.  That's a tricky one.  I feel like the best situation would have been for a group of OEMs to get together and decide on a standard for memory modules that allowed for a more dense per-module storage capacity than SODIMM, and roll that out at the same time as DDR5.  (That seems to be the driving force; four SODIMM ports+modules just takes up too much space.)  Failing that, it seems like something like this was bound to happen eventually.  I was hoping for the option to save some money by purchasing memory modules aftermarket (...especially for non-business users who might want to pick up one of these systems for individual use, but find the cost to be a bit steep).  But...  Given the option to either keep SODIMM, or instead put that space to increasing the cooling potential & performance of the system, I can see why Dell went the way that they did and I don't fault them for it.  At least the RAM is not soldered to the motherboard.
  • SODIMM modules are still supported up to 64GB with the interposer, and that will be fine for many people.  However...  You'd have to pay Dell for the cheapest interposer configuration, and then throw those modules away to install your own.  Hopefully, that configuration has a similar price point to the entry CAMM configuration.  Also, hopefully they won't make it hard to pick up the SODIMM interposer separately.

If I were going to complain about these systems, I'd say:

• Ports on the back.  At least power and Ethernet.  The huge exhaust port seems great, but now seeing the design of the cooling system, it seems like those two ports could have been moved "around the corner" to the back and the exhaust port could have been shrunk just a bit to accommodate them, and the cooling would be no worse off really.
• Fix the keyboard layout, already.  It needs dedicated Home/End and PgUp/PgDn buttons.  (Can't confirm that they haven't made any changes, yet, but it looks to me like it's going to be the same as 7X50/7X60.)
• ...I miss the "old days" when you could remove the bottom panel by taking out just two screws.  (That said, I hope that I'm opening this system up for tinkering much less often than I did with my M6700.)  ...You could also get the battery out by pulling a latch and it didn't require removing the whole bottom cover.
• (Not a problem yet, but the day that they start trying to hawk a proprietary SSD form factor is the day that I stop buying these systems.)

2 hours ago, wallstreetbets said:

I guess Intel is not going to release Xeon mobiles for this? So no ECC RAM going forward? This also means Windows for Workstations is dead

 

Precision 7X70 will be available with ECC memory; regular Core CPUs support it now (if paired with an appropriate PCH/chipset).  You are right...  There is no Precision 7570, and Windows "Pro for Workstations" is dead (for laptops anyway).

 

1 hour ago, Asleep said:

I'm going to see if I can find a right angle down RJ45 adapter and a 90* backwards RJ45 adapter to get the ethernet cable down and under that power line with the rear of the laptop elevated. 

 

I expect the power in will already be right angle... if not I'd have to get a 90* for that, too.

 

I found right-angle Dell power adapter things on Amazon and I'll be picking up some of those.  Ethernet cords are pretty "bendable" so I'll just tie the Ethernet and power cords together and plug the Ethernet straight in.  We'll see how that goes...

[yslalan]

On 4/18/2022 at 10:07 AM, Aaron44126 said:

Hmm, wait, does this mean that there is actually some degree of active cooling for the primary NVMe drive slot now?

The Precision 5760 I have has very low-temperature nvme drives due to the cooling air flow from dual fans. I guess that would come to 7670 as well.

[yslalan]

I also see the DGFF FPC

Dual DGFF FPCs = pcie4.0 x8 I guess

On 4/18/2022 at 10:07 AM, Aaron44126 said:

 

This cooling system structure is really similar to Precision 5530 2in1. 

[yslalan]

On 4/18/2022 at 9:52 AM, Aaron44126 said:

GORE™)"; not sure what those last two mean.

GORE is the thermal insulating material previously used on Precision 5000 series and XPS series, for insulating heat between motherboard and keyboard

[yslalan]

 

Precision 5770 and 5570 has been released in China market

About 8,700 US$ for i9+A3000.

 

[Peksha]

3 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

CAMM.  That's a tricky one.

SODIMM modules have exactly the size they are designed for - up to 2*8(9) chips. this is their physical limitation - chip have standard sizes. Inventing some new carrier for all the same chips with the same capacity, it is foolish to believe that the size of this module will be less than sodimm with the same number of those de chips. on one CAMM module, as in the pictures, you can exactly see the same amount - 2 * 8 * 2 with DSDR - this is a maximum of 64 GB for 16Gb chips. For 128GB, this should be either a double-sized module with the number of chips 2 * 2 * 8 * 2, or chips of a double capacity (which no one has yet seen live and it is not known whether they exist at the moment ), but then it is possible to assemble a couple of SODIMM modules