sager (Sager NP8358F2/Clevo PB51DF2) Strange bug regarding display output. Doesn't output to external monitor depending on GPU setting in BIOS...

[JQM]

Last year my screen broke and since then I've been using it as a "halftop", without the screen. So I took the screen off. It looks like a Commodore now. Kind of neat. I never bothered replacing the screen due to the extreme difficulty of doing so and sourcing one, and because I strongly suspect the backlight assembly is on the motherboard itself and that it might've shorted, as when I took the screen out I saw the antenna for my internal Wi-Fi card was FUBAR (wire shielding stripped and touching the display cables). The Wi-Fi card also doesn't work on any computer anymore. Anyway...

If the BIOS are set to "MSHybrid", the BIOS (and any non-OS menus, like Advanced Startup, GRUB, etc.) do not output to an external screen. Just an OS. Inside the OS, I see that the dedicated GPU, an RTX 2070 Super, is clearly the only one being used, proper behavior for HDMI/USB-C screen out. Intel HD Graphics do appear as an option, but nothing defaults to it, even mono-GPU games or programs from decades ago. The RTX 2070 Super is the dominant one.

If I set the BIOS to "Discrete", the BIOS (and any non-OS menus, like Advanced Startup, GRUB, etc.) DO output to an external screen. However the OS will not. Using TeamViewer, I can see see things, and that the OS doesn't even recognize there's actually a GPU! It only uses Microsoft's basic display driver (and only via TeamViewer), because it literally does not see a GPU, at all.

To my knowledge this feature I am describing is called the "MUX switch"?

My BIOS version, reported by the CMD command "wmic bios get smbiosbiosversion":
SMBIOSBIOSVersion
1.07.07LS1

 

The main BIOS screen looks kind of like this: https://slimbook.com/en/blog/guides-2/post/como-entrar-en-bios-katana-kde-bios-v2-insydeh20-141

I have tried output via USB-C and HDMI. Same results for both "MSHybrid" (Integrated) and "Discrete" (Dedicated) options. Is there any way to fix this?

[incendery]

hmm strange issue, looking at the block diagram the mux only handles the internal display connection.

 

this would explain why you don't see advanced startup grub etc if they're defaulting to the igpu which doesn't have a way to output to the external monitors.

I'm unsure why the DGPU doesn't wake up in windows that is quite odd, it may be something to do with the vbios perhaps? there is 2 roms onboard for optimus and dgpu only behaviour and perhaps there is an issue with the dgpu ROM?



In the details for microsoft display adapter what is the hardware ID reported if any?

 

[JQM]

So this is pretty interesting. I tried reproducing my steps to see the "Microsoft Display Adapter" today and saw something different, possibly from driver updates over time.

 

If you're curious, I hooked up my backlight-less screen and, carefully rigging it to stay up and using flashlights, select "Discrete" instead of "MSHybrid" in my BIOS. Painful, very painful, but I did it...

 

It's displaying the RTX 2070 Super now. Except there's an issue with it? It says "Code 43". I tried clicking "Driver Details", but it crashed the Device Manager menu.

 

https://i.imgur.com/JGf9ASO.png

https://i.imgur.com/zRz2Owh.png

 

I decided to update my drivers, been having an odd issue with my monitor's resolution sometimes not being recognized after starting up. Not always, but sometimes, and it's annoying.

 

And, the drivers work with the "Discrete" setting. I even loaded the "Driver Details" menu.

 

 

But you know how you have to restart after a driver update? I mean, I'd have to restart at some point anyway. So I did. Then they don't work again. So then I just switched it back to MSHybrid, and here I am posting again. No proper BIOS access, and so on...

 

I think you're onto something with the VBIOS not waking up (if the Discrete setting is there), as I imagine a driver update forces it to "wake up" for a little bit, right? Is this something that can be fixed?

[JQM]

I truthfully have no clue what VBIOS really are, or if they're even modifiable for a laptop without the manufacturer (Nvidia's ChatGPT-using support says they're a part of the laptop's BIOS, if that's the case only Sager can help me here), but I did find this if anyone would know what to look for inside VBIOS...?

 

It's Tongfang's RTX 2070 Super Mobile VBIOS: https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/260760/260760

 

While my laptop is based on Clevo (Sager is a redistributor for Clevo), not Tongfang, I wonder if there's anything to look at there?

[JQM]

Sorry for a triple post, but I found something else that may be of interest. I figured out how to dump my VBIOS with GPU-Z. When I tried to upload it, to my surprise (as I looked around and did not find it at all), it's been uploaded already. Here it is.

 

Clevo's RTX 2070 Super Mobile VBIOS: https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/224041/224041

 

While I'm sure any possible fix for this would require Sager to send me new BIOS, if anyone here can look at it to see if they spot an issue (if it's even possible, as I have no idea what's in these files if it's anything you can even diagnose), that would probably help them a lot, and me.

[Maks0098]

4 hours ago, JQM said:

Sorry for a triple post, but I found something else that may be of interest. I figured out how to dump my VBIOS with GPU-Z. When I tried to upload it, to my surprise (as I looked around and did not find it at all), it's been uploaded already. Here it is.

 

Clevo's RTX 2070 Super Mobile VBIOS: https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/224041/224041

 

While I'm sure any possible fix for this would require Sager to send me new BIOS, if anyone here can look at it to see if they spot an issue (if it's even possible, as I have no idea what's in these files if it's anything you can even diagnose), that would probably help them a lot, and me.

https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/210160/210160

I think this vbios is suitable for your laptop.

this vbios definitely fits Clevo PB51RF-G. I'm not sure if these laptops are the same. I'd like to see a screenshot of your GPU-Z.

 

you can see for yourself the device id in gpu-z and on the vbios techpowerup page(10DE 1F50). it is the same with this laptop. i did not find a screenshot of gpu-z with your laptop model.

[JQM]

I find that odd because I should have the RTX 2070 Super, why would it have the same ID as yours?

[incendery]

7 hours ago, JQM said:

I truthfully have no clue what VBIOS really are, or if they're even modifiable for a laptop without the manufacturer (Nvidia's ChatGPT-using support says they're a part of the laptop's BIOS, if that's the case only Sager can help me here), but I did find this if anyone would know what to look for inside VBIOS...?

 

It's Tongfang's RTX 2070 Super Mobile VBIOS: https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/260760/260760

 

While my laptop is based on Clevo (Sager is a redistributor for Clevo), not Tongfang, I wonder if there's anything to look at there?

Vbios is the ROM that initializes the GPU when you turn the computer on :), it's either stored in a separate chip from the normal bios or it can be included in the main bios ROM.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_BIOS some good information to get context here

if you can load up GPUZ and screenshot the main windows that would be great

Ignore this part I have just seen your new post*

Cheers
 

[JQM]

2 hours ago, incendery said:

Vbios is the ROM that initializes the GPU when you turn the computer on :), it's either stored in a separate chip from the normal bios or it can be included in the main bios ROM.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_BIOS some good information to get context here

if you can load up GPUZ and screenshot the main windows that would be great

Ignore this part I have just seen your new post*

Cheers
 

So, it could be on a different chip? I guess I have to wait to see if Sager says it is? nVidia's ChatGPT-using support claims only my manufacturer can change it and not them, which is odd if it was a different chip.

 

I wonder if anything can be done about this? Is there anything else I can post to help investigate the issue? Sager usually checks their tickets every few days, so if I was able to update them on where the issues are (like if anything looks off in the VBIOS posted, or something?) that would be great, to save them time.

[JQM]

It looks like Sager probably isn't going to help. They're claiming "The Nvidia GPU is down, it is not the bios issued.....   we might need you to ship the laptop in for service.... sorry...." which seems... strange since this is the only GPU fault I am having.

 

It's also very irritating, as I went through this last year with their support when my screen initially broke and I can't afford repairs which they were estimating would be "a minimum of 400$, more if the backlight assembly on the motherboard is fried......". I doubt they've since made the repairs free.

[JQM]

After several emails (Sager only replies once a day for some reason) of them asking for my address/phone/etc. to set up a replacement or repair (he wasn't clear), he finally said "charges may apply". They literally know I cannot afford a repair or replacement... we went through this ordeal last year... I also wouldn't be using a screenless laptop if I had endless cash, now would I, Sager?

 

I guess the issue can't be solved if the VBIOS are tied to my actual BIOS and Sager refuses to help.

[incendery]

it's a bit of an oddball solution but perhaps something like this could work?
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/1005004111527529.html

[JQM]

32 minutes ago, incendery said:

it's a bit of an oddball solution but perhaps something like this could work?
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/1005004111527529.html

I've seen those before and have no idea what they are for as it doesn't say. Is it a board that lets you turn the eDP wire from your laptop into an HDMI wire for an external monitor? Or does it turn your laptop screen into an HDMI monitor?

 

It's a bit expensive to gamble on.

[Maks0098]

9 hours ago, JQM said:

I've seen those before and have no idea what they are for as it doesn't say. Is it a board that lets you turn the eDP wire from your laptop into an HDMI wire for an external monitor? Or does it turn your laptop screen into an HDMI monitor?

 

It's a bit expensive to gamble on.

what he shared is that it takes the edp signal from the motherboard and converts it to an hdmi output, but if you take its adapter, you will only need an edp cable and a power supply

[JQM]

11 hours ago, Maks0098 said:

what he shared is that it takes the edp signal from the motherboard and converts it to an hdmi output, but if you take its adapter, you will only need an edp cable and a power supply

So eDP cable from my laptop, into the adapter, then HDMI from the adapter, into a monitor/TV, would work?

[JQM]

I rigged up the broken screen and flashlights again to switch to Discrete because I wanted to check on something (if Ctrl+Shift+Win+B, the hotkey to restart your graphics driver, would fix it), and saw that there was an option called "GPU Performance Scaling" that was set to Enabled in my BIOS. I had disabled it, and then... briefly, Windows actually boots and displays. It doesn't last long though. After about a minute, the GPU stops outputting anything and Device Manager reports the usual Code 43, seen via TeamViewer.

 

I don't understand. If I had a spare screen (because BIOS access is... sometimes necessary, would hate to break it), one thing I'd like to do is see what the screen looks like disassembled, and if there's a PCB or something that it just "needs" for some reason. Weirdly, if I have it set to Discrete, and have the broken screen plugged in the eDP port, outputs fine to my monitor. BIOS, boot screen, Windows, all of it. No Code 43, just works.

[incendery]

3 hours ago, JQM said:

I rigged up the broken screen and flashlights again to switch to Discrete because I wanted to check on something (if Ctrl+Shift+Win+B, the hotkey to restart your graphics driver, would fix it), and saw that there was an option called "GPU Performance Scaling" that was set to Enabled in my BIOS. I had disabled it, and then... briefly, Windows actually boots and displays. It doesn't last long though. After about a minute, the GPU stops outputting anything and Device Manager reports the usual Code 43, seen via TeamViewer.

 

I don't understand. If I had a spare screen (because BIOS access is... sometimes necessary, would hate to break it), one thing I'd like to do is see what the screen looks like disassembled, and if there's a PCB or something that it just "needs" for some reason. Weirdly, if I have it set to Discrete, and have the broken screen plugged in the eDP port, outputs fine to my monitor. BIOS, boot screen, Windows, all of it. No Code 43, just works.

looking at the EDP standard you may need to pull HotPlugDetect to 3.3v, I wonder if a display not reporting EDID data would let the GPU work properly too

 

[JQM]

3 minutes ago, incendery said:

looking at the EDP standard you may need to pull HotPlugDetect to 3.3v, I wonder if a display not reporting EDID data would let the GPU work properly too

 

What would be a method of doing this? I assume there's no "eDP dummy parts" I can buy here so what would need to be rigged up?

[incendery]

not sure exactly how or if it would work but I would be thinking of using the dead LCD as a starting point, it's already somewhat of a breakout if you trace the signals 🙂

[JQM]

After much more teeth-pulling from Sager's "support" team, they've said this:

 

"Great,  we're on the same page now,   this MUX is not something we can change or modify in BIOS. it has  to have the laptop LCD to be detected in order for the detection to work properly.   That's why this laptop is called,  Hybrid system, there is no solution for this."

 

It's a method to create e-waste. They intentionally set the MUX up to be useless in the event of lacking a screen. How disgusting.

 

This could've been a great mini-PC-style machine after its life as a laptop given it has a great cooling system, a still good i7 10875H, and a RTX 2070 Super. But its ability to be one is too limited given if the OS goes kaput, well, it's basically over.

 

Oh, but Wesley made sure to beg me again to send it in. 🙄 For "400$... may be more depending on repairs, we would tell you during...". Which is just... blackmail, because he'd keep finding reasons it'd "need to go up...", gotta add the ellipsis because despite a typical American name and working for a US-branch of the company, his English and comprehension is absolutely piss poor, it took 25 messages for him to FINALLY understand how the MUX switch in the laptop works even though I outlined it in the first post here which he's seen...

 

If I had money I'd buy a new computer instead of trying to get my computer to pretend it's Lazarus trying to come back to life.

[JQM]

More delicious developments from Wesley:

 

Wesley: where is your original lcd for this laptop?

 

---

 

Me: On a shelf. With no backlight. And it doesn't display about half of the screen. Remember that it's broken?

So you've said you can't help me with it outputting anything to a monitor, because of the intended e-waste mechanic of how the MUX works...

Will you send me a new LCD so I can just put it on myself? 

 

NOTE: I felt it important to ask for the LCD myself because he claims that ones online "can't be trusted". I also don't feel I should have to pay for any part of this given I only NEED a replacement LCD because of their bogus "MUX" switch.

 

---

 

Wesley: sorry.... LCD replacement has to came in......sorry.

 

---

 

Me: And will you pay for that?

 

NOTE: Again, this has come up countless times. Wesley refuses to acknowledge that I'm not buying a service that is a minimum of 400$ and "can go higher... if more parts are broken...".

 

---

 

Wesley: Nop,   this a physical damage..... not something we can cover as under warranty, but I can provide you the free labor and all you have to do is pay for the parts + both way shipping.

 

---

 

Me: So let me get this straight---your poor quality LCD broke on me, then it turns out you have an absurdly bad anti-consumer, pro e-waste BIOS set up that won't let external monitors be truly viable, and I'm still expected to pay for a replacement screen I didn't even WANT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

 

YOU pay for it.

 

NOTE: I literally did not WANT a replacement LCD. What I WANTED was the ability to use an external monitor PROPERLY and just use the laptop as a mini PC.

 

---

 

Wesley: if you don't want it in the 1st. place, why don't you refund it within 30 days?

 

---

 

Wesley, or Sager's sole tech support agent, has absolutely no ability to understand even BASIC English. He now seems to think I just bought a laptop and am unsatisfied with it.

 

It's a shame. When I was younger, Sager looked like that cool, high-quality brand that I'd love to have, but they just cost too much for me then. Their laptops looked so cool and practical, they were so much stronger than other brands, etc. They say "never meet your heroes", it goes for buying what looked like mythical goods too. Sager's quality is hideously poor (do remember that not only did the screen break, the Wi-Fi/Bluetooth card did too because of their awful wiring, the wires had shorted onto the screen's cables, which fried the Wi-Fi/Bluetooth card entirely) and riddled with anti-consumer BS like the fake "MUX switch", combined with literally no support. I swear to god that I would have a better chance of getting support from a Chinese company than I would from this supposedly Californian-based "English" company.

 

I would never recommend anyone buy from Sager. Their QA is atrocious and their support nonexistent.

[incendery]

The mux isn't the issue here as it is only hooked between the internal display, you can't use the integrated graphics externally because it isn't hooked up to it in any way that is why hybrid doesn't work on an external display. I think the issue is the default display output is set to internal for whatever reason when set to dedicated graphics only.

Not to excuse Sager's support which in all likelihood is the cheapest call centre in a country where wages are poor so they can increase profits, but this isn't a direct move to create e-waste as a laptop being used without an internal display connected is an uncommon use case.

it isn't a "fake MUX switch" it is simply a device to switch the display between integrated and dedicated graphics on the fly when using hybrid mode, this is only connected to the internal display connection which is standard on most laptops with dedicated graphics.

 

[JQM]

1 hour ago, incendery said:

The mux isn't the issue here as it is only hooked between the internal display, you can't use the integrated graphics externally because it isn't hooked up to it in any way that is why hybrid doesn't work on an external display. I think the issue is the default display output is set to internal for whatever reason when set to dedicated graphics only.

Not to excuse Sager's support which in all likelihood is the cheapest call centre in a country where wages are poor so they can increase profits, but this isn't a direct move to create e-waste as a laptop being used without an internal display connected is an uncommon use case.

it isn't a "fake MUX switch" it is simply a device to switch the display between integrated and dedicated graphics on the fly when using hybrid mode, this is only connected to the internal display connection which is standard on most laptops with dedicated graphics.

 

I absolutely would call it a fake MUX switch, because it doesn't work properly.

 

For a normal laptop, HDMI/USB-C/mDP always output via dGPU, regardless of the MUX switch setting. Where the "fake" part happens is that their implementation of the MUX switch just... swaps. It now outputs the OS via the iGPU, which is no longer "hooked up", hence why when I have it set to "Discrete", I don't have an OS on the monitor. But the BIOS/splash screen, which previously only broadcast on the iGPU or eDP port (on "MSHybrid"), now output to HDMI/USB-C/mDP, because it was just a lazy swap.

 

They literally spent more effort making the fake MUX switch than not. It's astounding.

[incendery]

unless I have got the wrong schematic I believe you are mistaken.

The EDP lane coming from the integrated graphics goes into the EDP MUX, this switches between the DGPU and the IGPU to connect them to the LCD, all other external video connections only connect to the DGPU.

When set to Hybrid the default display will be internal as the default display will be routed through the IGPU (this may be something you can change with a bios that has unlocked option menus?)  as for the no display on discrete my guess would be that there is some issue along the way initilizing the GPU past the GOP vbios state without an internal display hooked up, I am admittedly not very knowledgable in that area though so I can only hypothesize.

 

 

[JQM]

I was told by Sager that this behavior, broken as it is, is "intended". Given the trend for mini PCs or mini ITX builds nowadays, wouldn't be surprised if it was intended as an anti-recycling measure since it would mean Sager makes less sales.

 

Far as I can tell, literally no laptop with a MUX switch works in such a twisted way OTHER than Sager.