RTX 4000 mobile series officially released.

[1610ftw]

18 minutes ago, Papusan said:

Moore's law is Dead rambling about Nvidia's newest laptop scam... 56:51 RTX 4070 / 4060 / 4050 Laptop Reviews

 

4050 to 4070 being so gimped that more power does not do anything for them is ridiculous and almost amounts to false advertising - why advertise a TGP of 140W if you only have 100 or 105W when it counts? Nvidia better address that!

 

 

20 minutes ago, Papusan said:

What a Joke. And the 4080/4090 series laptops ain't less of a Joke. Overpriced scam.

 

A 4080 laptop for 2500 and a 4090 laptop for 3000 aren't that bad compared to the last generation so I will not be too harsh there. What annoys me more is that these are hardly what I would call proper DTRs any more and the workstations that could fill in will usually be power limited and/or gimped with regard to things like undervolting, power limits or fan control, not to forget the memory money grab from Dell.

 

I was really looking forward to an 18" laptop with a powerful CPU and a middle of the road GPU but I also want storage and memory in sufficient quantities and those thin and light laptops just don't offer it and overall are hard to take seriously.

 

 

 

[ryan]

i want a smart car with 30 seats(size is in question and is relevant)? does that sound reasonable to any one?  are you guys joking or serious?

[Etern4l]

2 minutes ago, ryan said:

i want a smart car with 30 seats? does that sound reasonable to any one?  are you guys joking or serious?

 

I want a sedan with 5 seats. Nvidia's new model only has 3, they cut the number of seats hoping people will be OK with it because it's a new and shiny model. 

[ryan]

its not the same size!

 

It is not the same SIZE?

 

so there is a model of the same size with 5 seats>? post a link to the mobile 4090 with the same seats as the desktop 4090.

 

ridiculus and I just couldn't resist. its a joke if you think a huge 1 foot desktop card should perform like a 2 inch laptop card. and its funny that it happened in the past but desktop users got the shaft. 

[Etern4l]

It's the same size, however, it has two extra spare tires in place of the 2 removed passenger seats at the back :)

Nobody asked for that, but it's cheaper for the manufacturer, while the price of the "upgraded" car went up. 

 

(referring to the slashed memory bus/bandwidth, in case that wasn't obvious) 

[1610ftw]

2 hours ago, ryan said:

i want a smart car with 30 seats(size is in question and is relevant)? does that sound reasonable to any one?  are you guys joking or serious?

 

It has been explained here and in other threads that laptops used to have higher TDPs, more memory and storage slots and they were also more modular.  No need for people to delude themselves into thinking that laptops couldn't be better as clearly they could be.

 

Subpar GPUs are probably the biggest hindrance to greatness followed by a combination of slim and light and abandonement of socketed GPUs and CPUs. Those developments were not necessary for all laptops and there was a  market for bigger and higher perfomance units until AMD, Nvidia and Intel stopped supporting socketed designs and all of that was accelerated by the thin and light trend that now means we do not even get thicker BGA books any more.

[KING19]

4 hours ago, Papusan said:

Moore's law is Dead rambling about Nvidia's newest laptop scam... 56:51 RTX 4070 / 4060 / 4050 Laptop Reviews

 

What a Joke. And the 4080/4090 series laptops ain't less of a Joke. Overpriced scam.

 

Yeah you're screwed either way. But at least with the RTX 4080 and RTX 4090 you get a good bang for your buck especially when the prices start to drop later in the year.

 

Mind well post this video for relevance

 

[VEGGIM]

1 hour ago, 1610ftw said:

 

It has been explained here and in other threads that laptops used to have higher TDPs, more memory and storage slots and they were also more modular.  No need for people to delude themselves into thinking that laptops couldn't be better as clearly they could be.

 

Subpar GPUs are probably the biggest hindrance to greatness followed by a combination of slim and light and abandonement of socketed GPUs and CPUs. Those developments were not necessary for all laptops and there was a  market for bigger and higher perfomance units until AMD, Nvidia and Intel stopped supporting socketed designs and all of that was accelerated by the thin and light trend that now means we do not even get thicker BGA books any more.

Thing is laptops don't really have a certification standard with the only exception being amd advantage which is for all amd gaming laptops and Intel evo which is for Intel ultrabooks. 

 

At least it's not as compared to someone's so called "standard" i.e

 

 

If anyone thought this works I wonder what they are smoking. Although this post was from the same person that wanted a bga socket with interposed even though I don't think that's the best long term solution for bga connections.

[ryan]

woah was not expecting this attention.

 

desktop big!

laptop small!

 

so laptop must be less powerfull right! so i thought lol...love nbrs nbt

 

 

also I'd like to add...

 

Here at NBT I feel like im the only one excited about 4090 mobiles performance...I'm personally content for 3090ti and up performance in a portable unit.

[1610ftw]

14 hours ago, ryan said:

woah was not expecting this attention.

 

desktop big!

laptop small!

 

so laptop must be less powerfull right! so i thought lol...love nbrs nbt

 

 

also I'd like to add...

 

Here at NBT I feel like im the only one excited about 4090 mobiles performance...I'm personally content for 3090ti and up performance in a portable unit.

 

Don't worry, you are among friends here.

 

Many of us remember better days when it comes to laptops and for those of us the current situation is kind of depressing and Nvidia trying to sell us a 4080 chip in a laptop as a 4090 is silly.

 

Misleading naming conventions aside there will be a lot of power to be had in the top units, no reason to not be happy with that if that is what you need, if not go with a desktop for better bang for the buck. Looking at the first incoming results from this laptop generation it looks like for QHD the 4080 will be good enough and for 4K even the 4090 will be borderline so I would go with the 4080 if I was into mobile gaming and considering that the 4070 has turned out to be quite the disappointment.

[1610ftw]

Very thorough review showing a bunch of disappointing scores for the 4070 compared to the 3070 Ti and also what is the reason for it. The subs are pretty good and it's definitely worth a watch.

 

 

 

[Etern4l]

10 hours ago, 1610ftw said:

Very thorough review showing a bunch of disappointing scores for the 4070 compared to the 3070 Ti and also what is the reason for it. The subs are pretty good and it's definitely worth a watch.

 

 

 

 

"4070 is an IQ test card" lol

[1610ftw]

3 hours ago, Etern4l said:

 

"4070 is an IQ test card" lol

IQ test as in you are stupid if you are buying it instead of a currently much cheaper 3070Ti laptop 😄

Of course this is not completely true as there may be other reasons for getting a laptop that has this GPU like a superior CPU and/or a bigger screen.

[Papusan]

On 3/1/2023 at 5:08 PM, 1610ftw said:

4050 to 4070 being so gimped that more power does not do anything for them is ridiculous and almost amounts to false advertising - why advertise a TGP of 140W if you only have 100 or 105W when it counts? Nvidia better address that!

All of the laptop models with 4000 mobile are gimped.

3 hours ago, 1610ftw said:

IQ test as in you are stupid if you are buying it instead of a currently much cheaper 3070Ti laptop 😄

Of course this is not completely true as there may be other reasons for getting a laptop that has this GPU like a superior CPU and/or a bigger screen.

Stupid product often match stupid purchases, LOOL

 

You get what you paid for, HaHa

 

Does that tell who'm you are? You the one that falled for the scam. 

 

And you don't need high IQ to understand you willingly being scammed or screwed. 

 

In short.... This will never be wrong bro @Mr. Fox

 

[Mr. Fox]

3 hours ago, Papusan said:

You get what you paid for, HaHa

Although there is a degree of truth to this, I do not think it is accurate with computers, and ESPECIALLY not turdbooks.

 

I think the revision should says something like this:

 

If you pay extra, you are less likely to get screwed as badly as if you paid less.

 

But, even then it's not totally accurate. For example, you'll pay more for an Alienware and get screwed worse than if you paid less for something else.

 

But, yes Brother @PapusanRon White is right though... "stupid is forever" LOL.

[ryan]

[ratchetnclank]

On 3/1/2023 at 5:30 PM, ryan said:

i want a smart car with 30 seats(size is in question and is relevant)? does that sound reasonable to any one?  are you guys joking or serious?

 

Nobody here is asking for a smart car. We are asking for large laptops to have great performance, not a single person on this site wants a thin and light jokebook and nobody really cares about size and weight.

 

An 18inch laptop should have a higher TDP than 250w combined between cpu and gpu.

[ryan]

most people don't want that though. The majority are into thin and lights or somewhere in between. being esoteric is not an entitlement. if you think a big desktop should perform like a small laptop thats fair? I guess. makes no sense to me but who am I

 

 

it's not that Im arguing for or against, it was just my take. a smart car with 30-40 seats seems unreasonable and so does desktop level performance in a laptop where the desktop is not castrated. we all have opinions and I fear mine is different. wrong? maybe? who knows. I disagree and I don't see how thats subjectively bad.

 

heres another take from someone else as i'm not heard

 

NVM.

 

https://www.makeuseof.com/reasons-desktop-always-better-than-laptop/

 

Is a laptop bigger than a desktop?

 

 

This type of computer is usually much bigger than a laptop. A fully working 'set' should consist of the workstation itself, a monitor, a keyboard and a mouse.

 

It's not just me, many people agree desktops are larger than laptops! so in a sense a laptop is like a smart car compared to the SUV desktop. Suv has 5 seats(power) laptop has two(power) seats. if you want more seats(power) buy a desktop. this my friend is simple logic and iv'e mentioned IQ tests alot and this question would be one the simpler side of the cube.

 

 

https://www.makeuseof.com/reasons-desktop-always-better-than-laptop/

[SapphiraTriX298]

5 hours ago, ratchetnclank said:

 

Nobody here is asking for a smart car. We are asking for large laptops to have great performance, not a single person on this site wants a thin and light jokebook and nobody really cares about size and weight.

 

An 18inch laptop should have a higher TDP than 250w combined between cpu and gpu.

 

Should vs Could. I think the market dictates otherwise.

 

I would also suspect that those in the unique position to desire a True Desktop Replacement of Old, ala 5kg M1730 or 4.5kg Ultras are a VERY small minority of the notebook-needing community, and an even smaller part of the overall computer buying community.

 

While notebook manufacturers are certainly capable of building such behemoths (the new MSI 4090 is not too far off in anything but weight and height) the number of those sold vs those that compromise on size over power are absolutely going to outsell the true DTR's on a logarithmic scale. Further the justification in developing a niche product like this is not one that can be spread over all the manufacturers, the market is too small.

 

Therefore at most only 1 or 2 manufacturers would even consider building something like this (mainly Clevo and Alienware, and neither has decided to do that this time around).

The ROI on those products is going to be less than that of any of the thinner and lighter models, so justifying the cost of design/tooling/production/support, is going to be less desirable than what already works, particularly when those companies are already redesigning numerous components to allow for things like Mini LED screens, RGB (yes, but it sells), etc.

 

Some will point out that prior to the 3080/4080 series parity between laptop/desktop was closer. To which I will gently remind that the power draw between a desktop 4080 and a laptop 4090 is enormous unlike that of the 2080. Did we mention fan noise?

 

Even if Nvidia allowed for higher power draws, companies would have to design a cooling solution for that particular design alone, and a larger power supply since even limiting the GPU to 250w would require either a double PSU (remember those beasts?) or an even larger single supply of around 400w or more. (It isn't obvious to me that even raising the 175w TDP another 25w would be enough of a difference to make a difference so a larger jump would be required).

 

Would that be worth around $6000 to most people? Or would more people point out the even greater ridiculousness of buying one of those vs 'just getting a desktop' which has already been stated multiple times in this thread? The closer you get to desktop performance the greater the cost. So where is the ideal price/performance ratio at? Where the manufacturers have built at.

 

So it is not so much that they won't, but why would they? Most will accept the compromises already made by notebook manufacturers, of the rest who complain, only a portion of those would actually follow through and buy a $6k true DTR, while the rest would want a nigh-impossible combination to include power consumption to rival a small desktop while still being somewhat small and portable, and a 'reasonable' price.

I could certainly use a DTR like that, but I wouldn't want to pay for one.

[SapphiraTriX298]

On 3/4/2023 at 8:22 AM, 1610ftw said:

IQ test as in you are stupid if you are buying it instead of a currently much cheaper 3070Ti laptop 😄

Of course this is not completely true as there may be other reasons for getting a laptop that has this GPU like a superior CPU and/or a bigger screen.

I have been looking at some of the major US retailers, Amazon, Newegg, and Best Buy, and it looks like a lot of the 3070-3080 laptops have either sold out at this point, or the prices make them hard to justify vs the newer/equivalent 4000 series. The market has adapted to the demand.

[Reciever]

8 hours ago, ryan said:

most people don't want that though. The majority are into thin and lights or somewhere in between. being esoteric is not an entitlement. if you think a big desktop should perform like a small laptop thats fair? I guess. makes no sense to me but who am I

 

 

it's not that Im arguing for or against, it was just my take. a smart car with 30-40 seats seems unreasonable and so does desktop level performance in a laptop where the desktop is not castrated. we all have opinions and I fear mine is different. wrong? maybe? who knows. I disagree and I don't see how thats subjectively bad.

 

heres another take from someone else as i'm not heard

 

NVM.

 

https://www.makeuseof.com/reasons-desktop-always-better-than-laptop/

 

Is a laptop bigger than a desktop?

 

 

This type of computer is usually much bigger than a laptop. A fully working 'set' should consist of the workstation itself, a monitor, a keyboard and a mouse.

 

It's not just me, many people agree desktops are larger than laptops! so in a sense a laptop is like a smart car compared to the SUV desktop. Suv has 5 seats(power) laptop has two(power) seats. if you want more seats(power) buy a desktop. this my friend is simple logic and iv'e mentioned IQ tests alot and this question would be one the simpler side of the cube.

 

 

https://www.makeuseof.com/reasons-desktop-always-better-than-laptop/

 

This is also false.

 

OEMs just want to put their already in place motherboards into multiple SKUs and sell it as a different product family.

 

See Latitude 5430 and Mobility Precision, same chassis, slightly differing board, same keyboard, same panels, same outputs.

 

its an effort to streamline manufacturing while appearing to maintain different product families. There was a reason why Eurcom released the 780w AC Adapter, there was a market for it.

 

You dont get to create an inferior product, then say "whelp, theres no market!" then charge the same or money for it. Of course the market is going to look elsewhere, if you go long enough then those on the older systems will either buy somethign they dont want or grab some cheap yesteryear system to suffice the mobile needs while they move to desktops for what they want.

[1610ftw]

55 minutes ago, SapphiraTriX298 said:

 

Should vs Could. I think the market dictates otherwise.

 

I would also suspect that those in the unique position to desire a True Desktop Replacement of Old, ala 5kg M1730 or 4.5kg Ultras are a VERY small minority of the notebook-needing community, and an even smaller part of the overall computer buying community.

 

While notebook manufacturers are certainly capable of building such behemoths (the new MSI 4090 is not too far off in anything but weight and height) the number of those sold vs those that compromise on size over power are absolutely going to outsell the true DTR's on a logarithmic scale. Further the justification in developing a niche product like this is not one that can be spread over all the manufacturers, the market is too small.

 

Therefore at most only 1 or 2 manufacturers would even consider building something like this (mainly Clevo and Alienware, and neither has decided to do that this time around).

The ROI on those products is going to be less than that of any of the thinner and lighter models, so justifying the cost of design/tooling/production/support, is going to be less desirable than what already works, particularly when those companies are already redesigning numerous components to allow for things like Mini LED screens, RGB (yes, but it sells), etc.

 

Some will point out that prior to the 3080/4080 series parity between laptop/desktop was closer. To which I will gently remind that the power draw between a desktop 4080 and a laptop 4090 is enormous unlike that of the 2080. Did we mention fan noise?

 

Even if Nvidia allowed for higher power draws, companies would have to design a cooling solution for that particular design alone, and a larger power supply since even limiting the GPU to 250w would require either a double PSU (remember those beasts?) or an even larger single supply of around 400w or more. (It isn't obvious to me that even raising the 175w TDP another 25w would be enough of a difference to make a difference so a larger jump would be required).

 

Would that be worth around $6000 to most people? Or would more people point out the even greater ridiculousness of buying one of those vs 'just getting a desktop' which has already been stated multiple times in this thread? The closer you get to desktop performance the greater the cost. So where is the ideal price/performance ratio at? Where the manufacturers have built at.

 

So it is not so much that they won't, but why would they? Most will accept the compromises already made by notebook manufacturers, of the rest who complain, only a portion of those would actually follow through and buy a $6k true DTR, while the rest would want a nigh-impossible combination to include power consumption to rival a small desktop while still being somewhat small and portable, and a 'reasonable' price.

I could certainly use a DTR like that, but I wouldn't want to pay for one.

 

 

The whole argument is not about profitability any more for a certain product or even excellence at a possible cost of losing a bit money on a flagship product - yes, companies did that - but it is about pandering to a certain lower denominator above which nobody shall rise any more. 

 

The 250W ceiling that EVERYBODY adheres to looks very much as if it is something that came about due to some backroom deals between manufacturers who do not want to compete any more for performance but for the most RGB glitz and who has the thinnest and the sleekest with the smallest screen bezels.

 

 

[SapphiraTriX298]

1 hour ago, 1610ftw said:

...but it is about pandering to a certain lower denominator above which nobody shall rise any more. 

 

Of course, because their analysts have determined it is the most profitable. Tack on a bit of RGB and you can charge more and people do buy it. Even tongfang does it, though to a lesser degree

 

1 hour ago, 1610ftw said:

The 250W ceiling that EVERYBODY adheres to looks very much as if it is something that came about due to some backroom deals...

 

That seems a possibility, but probably due in part to Nvidia not allowing a GPU TDP above a certain point. The logic behind that decision I don't fully understand. I do think raising it (sufficiently high enough to make a difference) would create a different product segment rather than replacing one.

 

But given they have the ability to test wattage/clockspeeds along the spectrum, there was probably a reason 175w was chosen. Perhaps because they do not expect the next year's Ti's to be that much better?

 

But in regard to the first part these are profit driven companies first, technological innovators secondary to the first. They would make these laptops more powerful if the market demanded.

 

That tells me that it is not sufficiently profitable to do so compared to other units, which are far from impotent on the top end.

 

But these grossly expensive laptops from $3000-$5000+ all performing largely the same is probably the best chance to make a change, IF they don't sell as well as hoped. But again, laptops and desktops are different markets, so it could play out differently

[1610ftw]

On 3/7/2023 at 6:04 AM, SapphiraTriX298 said:

 

Of course, because their analysts have determined it is the most profitable. Tack on a bit of RGB and you can charge more and people do buy it. Even tongfang does it, though to a lesser degree

 

 

That seems a possibility, but probably due in part to Nvidia not allowing a GPU TDP above a certain point. The logic behind that decision I don't fully understand. I do think raising it (sufficiently high enough to make a difference) would create a different product segment rather than replacing one.

 

But given they have the ability to test wattage/clockspeeds along the spectrum, there was probably a reason 175w was chosen. Perhaps because they do not expect the next year's Ti's to be that much better?

 

But in regard to the first part these are profit driven companies first, technological innovators secondary to the first. They would make these laptops more powerful if the market demanded.

 

That tells me that it is not sufficiently profitable to do so compared to other units, which are far from impotent on the top end.

 

But these grossly expensive laptops from $3000-$5000+ all performing largely the same is probably the best chance to make a change, IF they don't sell as well as hoped. But again, laptops and desktops are different markets, so it could play out differently

 

Looking at the current generation it looks like the goal is to have a TDP that is low enough to allow the GPU to be adequately cooled in a 6 to 6.5 lbs laptop and with 175W this does not seem to be much of an issue so now all manufacturers can deal with more important things like who has the most garish design and the most RGB bling. 

 

The Alienware m18 will be an interesting test case as it is substantially bigger and heavier than the competition so if it sells well we may again see GPU and total system TDP lifted and with it an increase in weight and size across the board.

[1610ftw]

And now back to the most disappointing card in this generation:

 

In early leaks it looked like it would be the best bang for the bucks as it supposedly was pretty close to the 4080 mobile but somebody at Nvidia possibly did not like it and changed its fate from best to worst - a roughly 50% increase in Time Spy score going from a 70 to an 80 card must be a first:

 

 

At least people with a laptop with the 2080 or better do not have to worry about upgrading - not worth it for this kind of performance.