*Official Benchmark Thread* - Post it here or it didn't happen :D

[tps3443]

1 hour ago, Papusan said:

Look at this.... Asus 4060 ROG Strix OC = 537.65 United States Dollar here home. Yep with the nice 25% Norwegian tax😬 And the cheapest of the 4060s is 427.30 United States Dollar and not so much better. Garbage is bad. But what can we say about overpriced Garbage? Double Garbage?

 

 

 

You can get a 3070 for 324.90 United States Dollar in the used market here. And you get up to 4 years free warranty if the card was bought last year. I compared the 2 years old 3070 vs 4060 results from Techspot.com https://www.techspot.com/review/2701-nvidia-geforce-rtx-4060/

 

Why pay up to 65% more for the 4060 Strix OC over a used 3070? The 6800XT in the used market is still all too expensive. Same for the 6800. So thats not an option.

 

 

Why does the new 4060 even need to exist? I really hope Nvidia will be screwed on this one.

I think a used 2080Ti is good option too for 2023! Especially a good 2080Ti A bin. Back when I ran a 2080Ti it was easily providing substantial gains over the 3070Ti and It had the 11GB VRAM. 
 

Now that I think about it. The 2080Ti is really really old. But for 1080P. Man, it would still be fast. 

[Papusan]

10 hours ago, tps3443 said:

I think a used 2080Ti is good option too for 2023! Especially a good 2080Ti A bin. Back when I ran a 2080Ti it was easily providing substantial gains over the 3070Ti and It had the 11GB VRAM. 
 

Now that I think about it. The 2080Ti is really really old. But for 1080P. Man, it would still be fast. 

Yep, that's also an viable option. But you have to pay 417.35 United States Dollar for the cheapest card here in the used market. But at least you get the Strix card that don't burn up, HaHa. The GPU market have been difficult the last few years. And from what I see it looks even worse now if you think about buying new cards. 4090 is the only choice as I see it. And I'm not keen on any Radeon card, so.... Maybe a damn cheap 1080Ti would still be fun card in 1080P 🙂

 

4060 = Overpriced for what you get. This is a 4050 tier card
4060Ti the same tragedy. 
4070 is still all too expensive.
Same for 4070Ti.
4080 is DOA card and way too expensive. 
Then the 4090. Have good value due the minimum price hike over previous gen and the huge performance uplift.

 

So minimal point go for the 4000 series cards. Only the 4090 have some value.

 

Then the higher end of the 3000 series cards. They are still all too expensive. Remember they are already + 2 years old. And I don't like AMD cards. Not much to go with if I look after the list, LOOL

 

I think I went the right direction with the 4090 HOF and same time continue with my older sub 120$ cards. There is nothing in between for me. And limited options for those that want true 1080P and 1440P gaming for normal amount of money. But there is still some Stupids out there that can't see there is better options. So expect nvidia will still sell their 4050 at +300$

[tps3443]

3 minutes ago, Papusan said:

Yep, that's also an viable option. But you have to pay 417.35 United States Dollar for the cheapest card here in the used market. But at least you get the Strix card that won't burn up. The GPU market have been difficult the last few years. And from what I see it looks even worse now if you think about buying new cards. 4090 is the only choice as I see it. And I'm not keen on any Radeon card, so.... Maybe a damn cheap 1080Ti would still be fun card in 1080P 🙂

Im not planning to upgrade for a while still, few times came across where I almost bought a 4090 came very close, but didn’t want to waste the money and didn’t do it. I don’t mind turning down a setting or bumping DLSS to the next faster notch up for 4K. Neither option has been needed just yet. Now it looks like RTX5000 series is not coming out until 2025? All the more reason to keep my 3090 I guess lol. Hopefully it runs good with Bethesdas new Starfield game at 4K! 🫣

 

 

[Papusan]

4 minutes ago, tps3443 said:

Im not planning to upgrade for a while still, few times came across where I almost bought a 4090 came very close, but didn’t want to waste the money and didn’t do it. I don’t mind turning down a setting or bumping DLSS to the next faster notch up for 4K. Neither option has been needed just yet. Now it looks like RTX5000 series is not coming out until 2025? All the more reason to keep my 3090 I guess lol. Hopefully it runs good with Bethesdas new Starfield game at 4K! 🫣

 

 

 

Why AMD's Exclusive Starfield Partnership Has GeForce RTX Owners Freaking Out

 

No need for new modern card if the stupids can keep up like this. I won't buy AMD for this 🙂

 

[tps3443]

1 hour ago, Papusan said:

 

Why AMD's Exclusive Starfield Partnership Has GeForce RTX Owners Freaking Out

 

No need for new modern card if the stupids can keep up like this. I won't buy AMD for this 🙂

 

What’s funny is Starfield was gonna be a Sony PS5 exclusive lol. Then Microsoft went and bought Zenith/Bethesda studios just to prevent this. So now it will be on Game Pass for PC and Xbox on launch day 🤣 consoles are all on AMD hardware though so FSR2 being in Starfield makes sense. It still works on Nvidia though right? 

[ryan]

newer is better

 

Microsoft Has Just Admitted That Windows 11 Has a ‘Nasty Bug’ Users Should Be Aware Of

 

Microsoft Has Just Admitted That Windows 11 Has a ‘Nasty Bug’ Users Should Be Aware Of (msn.com)

 

pure gold

[Papusan]

7 hours ago, tps3443 said:

What’s funny is Starfield was gonna be a Sony PS5 exclusive lol. Then Microsoft went and bought Zenith/Bethesda studios just to prevent this. So now it will be on Game Pass for PC and Xbox on launch day 🤣 consoles are all on AMD hardware though so FSR2 being in Starfield makes sense. It still works on Nvidia though right? 

 

Modder Promises DLSS 3 Integration Early in 'Starfield'

[tps3443]

4 hours ago, Papusan said:

 

Modder Promises DLSS 3 Integration Early in 'Starfield'

That’s really awesome. I’ve been waiting years for this game. Bethesda is the absolute best. I played the Morrowind elder scrolls when I was like 12 years old and I loved it so much I got hooked, the. Years later Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas, Skyrim, and Fallout 4. 
 

I hope it’s good. I feel bad for the guys on Sony though. 

[Papusan]

Where is the pict lover @electrosoft? On summer vacation? Gues whats in the package bro @ryan ? And if you don't see it. I have bought brand new all black crocs😀 The sad part.... The damn rain is back and with all the holes in the crocs I will become very wet on my feets, HaHa

 

 

Very good packed in. A 1000$ card couldn't be better packed in, HeHe

 

[electrosoft]

6 minutes ago, Papusan said:

Where is the pict lover @electrosoft? On summer hollidays?🙂 Gues what in the package bro @ryan ? And if you don't see it. I have bought brand new all black crocs😀

 

 

 

 

 

When I go shoe shopping tomorrow with my daughter I think I'm going to try on a pair just to see what they feel like!

 

But that is an assault to the eyes! 🙂

 

" @Papusan HOF Crocs Special Edition" 🤣

 

[Papusan]

1 hour ago, electrosoft said:

 

When I go shoe shopping tomorrow with my daughter I think I'm going to try on a pair just to see what they feel like!

 

But that is an assault to the eyes! 🙂

 

" @Papusan HOF Crocs Special Edition" 🤣

 

More to come here bro @electrosoft And yep, try the crocs🙂 But do your daughter like black shoes? I'm quite sure they feel better on the feets in that nice color😆

 

Say hello to Papusan's new little baby... Galax GTX 970 HOF. This GTX 970 card use exactly same PCB, cooling and power delivery as the bigger bro GTX 980 HOF. The only difference is the GPU cores. Aka very overbuilt even for a 980. So I really like what I so far have seen from this 970. The card looks as in mint condition and the seller (young lady) used it for grafisk design. 

 

 

 

Here the big brother with the little cute sister. 2847g vs 1280g. If I have put on the crown on the 4090 HOF it would be close to 3000 gram. Or 2.34 times the weight of the 970 HOF. But the smaller Galax card is still very heavy for its class.

 

 

[Papusan]

When I talked about overbuilt. 

 

Asus GTX 970 Strix OC cooling

 

Asus GTX 970 come with Single 8 pin. And the bigge bro Asus GTX 980 Strix OC use 8+6 pin

 

Galax GTX 970 HOF cooling

 

970 HOF come with dual 8 pin and a hell lot better PCB and power delivery.

[Papusan]

Btw. When we first have talked about Asus.... The usual daily damage.

 

Posted 3 hours ago

Asus 4090 OC + EKWB + ABP + Cablemod 180 Type A + Cablemod custom Cable

[tps3443]

You know there was a guy who melted his connector on his 3090 and his plug was not connected all the way, he even admitted to that on the overclock forums, that his plug wasn’t fully seated. So is all this 4090 connector stuff just from the plug not being seated properly? 

[electrosoft]

41 minutes ago, tps3443 said:

You know there was a guy who melted his connector on his 3090 and his plug was not connected all the way, he even admitted to that on the overclock forums, that his plug wasn’t fully seated. So is all this 4090 connector stuff just from the plug not being seated properly? 

 

There have been plenty of cases where the plug was fully seated and fused/melted to the connector.

 

While every brand has been susceptible, the most common combo is Asus + CableMod.

 

I haven't had even a lick of problems with my MSI Suprim Liquid X using the stock cable.

 

All it took was that initial CM cable to start shutting off on its own >300w to sour me on them. I don't need aesthetics that badly. They sent me a brand new 4 position EVGA -> 12vhpwr cable and it is sitting in the drawer brand new. I'm loathe to even take a chance because I know statistically speaking I will never land another 4090 like this one again just on the new 1.07v nerf alone to all models shipping now never mind 2820-2835 OOB boosting and 3120-3160 OC boosting on stock BIOS and stock AIO cooling and near zero coil whine along with >=+1600 on the memory. It literally checked all my "pretty please" boxes right out of the box. Just imagine this on the HOF BIOS and chilled water.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Fox]

3 hours ago, Papusan said:

When I talked about overbuilt. 

 

Asus GTX 970 Strix OC cooling

 

Asus GTX 970 come with Single 8 pin. And the bigge bro Asus GTX 980 Strix OC use 8+6 pin

 

Galax GTX 970 HOF cooling

 

970 HOF come with dual 8 pin and a hell lot better PCB and power delivery.

Asus has been an overrated "more bark than bite" poser in the enthusiast space for a few years now. It's unfortunate they they are going to be the only real player left in the game now with EVGA bowing out on motherboards. Galax HOF products, while pretty amazing, are too difficult for most people to acquire due to no direct purchasing access and limited availability to count them in the mix. Galax (HOF) and EVGA (Classified/Kingpin) have been the only two companies demonstrating serious and genuine effort to produce unmatchable superior products for overclockers quite a while. All of their competitors are focused on making gamerboys happy.

 

MSI has the potential to rise to the occasion to bridge the gap. I hope they come out with some really serious threat products equivalent to the HOF and Kingpin brands. The quality of their flagship products is good. I wish they would release a Z790 Unify-X. That is a really killer board. The Suprim GPU is also awesome, although they could have done some more overkill things with it than they did... such as releasing a voltage override tool like the Kingpin and HOF offer. The Unify-X was a "more zing than bling" product that they should be very proud of. The focus on rainbow puke and gimmicky crap is just a smokescreen to obscure mediocrity.

[Papusan]

10 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

Asus has been an overrated "more bark than bite" poser in the enthusiast space for a few years now. It's unfortunate they they are going to be the only real player left in the game now with EVGA bowing out on motherboards. Galax HOF products, while pretty amazing, are too difficult for most people to acquire due to no direct purchasing access and limited availability to count them in the mix. Galax (HOF) and EVGA (Classified/Kingpin) have been the only two companies demonstrating serious and genuine effort to produce unmatchable superior products for overclockers quite a while. All of their competitors are focused on making gamerboys happy.

 

MSI has the potential to rise to the occasion to bridge the gap. I hope they come out with some really serious threat products equivalent to the HOF and Kingpin brands. The quality of their flagship products is good. I wish they would release a Z790 Unify-X. That is a really killer board. The Suprim GPU is also awesome, although they could have done some more overkill things with it than they did... like releasing a voltage override tool like the Kingpin and HOF offer.

Yep. MSI should go back to the old days and start with Lightning cards. And they shouldn't cost much more than their Suprim X models. Aka much cheaper option than Asus and Galax. There is nothing special with the PCB and the power components on Asus Strix OC cards. They are pretty vanilla as other flagship cards. Not even close to the HOF cards. But if you can get a HOF they shouldn't be much more expensive than the Strix OC. And you get more for around same amount money. Asus couldn't even add two 12VHPWR connector on their new Matrix 4090 flagship. Neither managed a nice feature as force max fans/power limit with a physical button on the GPU I/O shield. Just more bling, better bin and the fancy AIO with improved software/monitoring IC for (Telemetry). Almost as a jazzed up Strix OC but for more $$$$$.

 

They all will still have the same problems. The bin quality is a lottery. And will be. Not what you really pay for. You pay the extra for the bling factor, name and somewhat better cooling. And a couple extra power phases you really don't need. 

 

I accept pay 300$ extra for a high end card. But it has to be the best of the best. Nothing more or nothing less. Best bin, best, cooling and best PCB. 

[Mr. Fox]

21 minutes ago, Papusan said:

Yep. MSI should go back to the old days and start with Lightning cards. And they shouldn't cost much more than their Suprim X models. Aka much cheaper option than Asus and Galax. There is nothing special with the PCB and the power components on Asus Strix OC boards. They are pretty vanilla as other flagship cards. Not even close to the HOF cards. But if you can get a HOF they shouldn't be much more expensive than the Strix OC. And you get more for around same amount money. Asus couldn't even add two 12VHPWR connector on their new Matrix 4090 flagship. Just more bling, better bin and the fancy AIO with improved software/monitoring (Telemetry). Almost as a jazzed up Strix OC but for more $$$$$.

 

They all will still have the same problems. The bin quality is a lottery. And will be. Not what you really pay for. You pay the extra for the bling factor, name and somewhat better cooling. And a couple extra power phases you really don't need. 

 

I accept pay 300$ extra for a high end card. But it has to be the best of the best. Nothing more or less. 

Yes. That is true. Kingpin GPUs have binned chips and I believe the OC Lab HOF do as well. You get superior build quality and cherry picked chips, so it is worth the extra money. The bling is just stupid crap that adds cost for children to feel special, even though they are not.

 

Asus should start by fixing all of their broken garbage software. There is not one piece of software for their products that functions correctly. Everything (literally) is broken... Armory Crate, AI Suite, TurboV Core, the original Aura software. They bundled Aura with Armory Crate, made it UWP filth (a very grievous and tragic show of poor judgment) and on top of that it won't even function for most people that try to install it. AI Suite and TurboV Core won't work on any version of Windows 10 past like 1803 or 1909.

 

ASUS software is bloated to a degree that defies the imagination. Armory Crate is probably the most flagrant example of bloated digital feces the world has ever seen. Besides not even being functional most of the time, it adds dozens of background services and more than 1,000 registry keys. It is truly a cancerous piece of malware that you can't even use 90% of the time because it won't launch, LOL.

 

Edit: GPU Tweak still works. I have to give credit for that since I did not. So, "almost all of their software is broken" LOL.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Mr. Fox
GPU tweak mention

[Papusan]

55 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

Yes. That is true. Kingpin GPUs have binned chips and I believe the OC Lab HOF do as well. You get superior build quality and cherry picked chips, so it is worth the extra money. The bling is just stupid crap that adds cost for children to feel special, even though they are not.

 

Asus should start by fixing all of their broken garbage software. There is not one piece of software for their products that functions correctly. Everything (literally) is broken... Armory Crate, AI Suite, TurboV Core, the original Aura software. They bundled Aura with Armory Crate, made it UWP filth (a very grievous and tragic show of poor judgment) and on top of that it won't even function for most people that try to install it. AI Suite and TurboV Core won't work on any version of Windows 10 past like 1803 or 1909.

 

ASUS software is bloated to a degree that defies the imagination. Armory Crate is probably the most flagrant example of bloated digital feces the world has ever seen. Besides not even being functional most of the time, it adds dozens of background services and more than 1,000 registry keys. It is truly a cancerous piece of malware that you can't even use 90% of the time because it won't launch, LOL.

 

Edit: GPU Tweak still works. I have to give credit for that since I did not. So, "almost all of their software is broken" LOL.

 

Gpu tweak is a good software from Asus. The only software that can let you adjust voltage on a few older AMD and Nvidia graphics cards. And for most brands cards. Totally opposite vs many other OC tools. Msi Afteburner and Evga software can’t do this. Neither the other brands crap graphics OC tools. So you was spot on. 
 

But how long was Adam in paradise? Maybe they kill that software as well. Nothing will last fantastic forever. Everything shall be dumbed down. All in one package that will be riddled with bugs that will never be fixed. 

[Papusan]

4 hours ago, Papusan said:

Asus couldn't even add two 12VHPWR connector on their new Matrix 4090 flagship.  Neither managed a nice feature as force max fans/power limit with a physical button on the GPU I/O shield. Just more bling lights, better bin and the fancy AIO with improved software/monitoring IC for telling you how long you have played with the card(Telemetry). Almost as a jazzed up Strix OC but for more $$$$$.

If you click the boost feature button on the I/O backplate, that will disable any OCP/OVP and enable max fans without the need for software. How can this be so difficult to do for other graphics cards flagship? You get it even with the much cheaper x/x70 series cards. Here below you can see the difference between the old button design and the one for the newer cards. Now you get green light when you have enabled it. I would be happy whatever design if that was implemented for all brands cards. Very nice that Galax continue with such features and don't follow the new modern trend (removing everything that cost them slightly more money). 

 

 

 

Removed some dust. Very easy to do properly with an eletrical dust cleaner. A must have.

 

Yep, dual PSU is worth its weight in gold 🙂

 

[tps3443]

3 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

Yes. That is true. Kingpin GPUs have binned chips and I believe the OC Lab HOF do as well. You get superior build quality and cherry picked chips, so it is worth the extra money. The bling is just stupid crap that adds cost for children to feel special, even though they are not.

 

Asus should start by fixing all of their broken garbage software. There is not one piece of software for their products that functions correctly. Everything (literally) is broken... Armory Crate, AI Suite, TurboV Core, the original Aura software. They bundled Aura with Armory Crate, made it UWP filth (a very grievous and tragic show of poor judgment) and on top of that it won't even function for most people that try to install it. AI Suite and TurboV Core won't work on any version of Windows 10 past like 1803 or 1909.

 

ASUS software is bloated to a degree that defies the imagination. Armory Crate is probably the most flagrant example of bloated digital feces the world has ever seen. Besides not even being functional most of the time, it adds dozens of background services and more than 1,000 registry keys. It is truly a cancerous piece of malware that you can't even use 90% of the time because it won't launch, LOL.

 

Edit: GPU Tweak still works. I have to give credit for that since I did not. So, "almost all of their software is broken" LOL.

 

I don’t believe I have ever installed armory crate before, maybe with the Z690 Apex just to see how bad it was. So many bad things I have heard though. I leave it be and don’t mess with it. I never installed it with my Z790 Apex.

 

PS: The new FW and bios is absolutely solid solid solid though. DDR5 8600c38 worked perfectly for hours of gaming yesterday, and all day today while working within virtual machines and apps. This specific 8600 profile is just a base line profile to fine tune those timings your self. But once dialed in it is very low latency and very very fast. Your 2x24GB DDR5 8000 kit should be able to take full advantage of that.
 

[Mr. Fox]

1 hour ago, tps3443 said:

I don’t believe I have ever installed armory crate before, maybe with the Z690 Apex just to see how bad it was. So many bad things I have heard though. I leave it be and don’t mess with it. I never installed it with my Z790 Apex.

 

PS: The new FW and bios is absolutely solid solid solid though. DDR5 8600c38 worked perfectly for hours of gaming yesterday, and all day today while working within virtual machines and apps. This specific 8600 profile is just a base line profile to fine tune those timings your self. But once dialed in it is very low latency and very very fast. Your 2x24GB DDR5 8000 kit should be able to take full advantage of that.
 

I believe you are correct and I am expecting good results. Delivery was delayed until tomorrow due to a mechanical failure.

 

I was able to get it stable at 7800 34-44-44-44-42 and 480 tRFC. That is 1000 MT/s more than the Z690 Apex was capable of, but a far cry worse than how well these sticks perform on the Dark mobo. At only 7800 it is still better than most motherboards can do. It is definitely good enough to keep and not RMA, even if it goes into my work PC and the Dark goes back on the open bench. I like it enough and it performs at a level that a replacement might not. I think I am in a good place where I can choose the better of the two for benching as opposed to only having one impressive  motherboard and one that is disappointing.

 

I want the RGB to work and be set to white. I like it white. It looks fantastic with white lighting. So I am trying to get the RGB to work right so I do not have to disable it to stop the rainbow vomit circus clown $---show.

 

I will only install Armory Crate on my crash dummy OS that allows Micro$lop cancer updates with a fresh Macrium image ready to fix any mistakes. Putting it on an OS that you want to perform well is a stupid mistake because it won't if you do. It worked once and the next time I turned on my computer it won't load anymore. It opens for like one or two seconds and closes. I am using OpenRGB, but that is extremely risky is you have RGB memory. It can (and often does) brick the SPD on RGB memory modules. It happened to me three times before I figured out what was causing it, and I found dozens of reports of the same on the internet when I begin trying to figure out what was wrong. You have to disable memory RGB sensors in OpenRGB to avoid disaster, and use G.SKILL's software for the memory lighting.

 

I could never get Armory Crate to work on either of the two Z690 Strix mobos or the Z690 Apex. It worked a few times and stopped working on the Z490 Apex. 

 

It is sinfully unethical, unprofessional and disrespectful to customers for them to release such a sucky, worthless, broken piece of trash. Their customers deserve to be treated better, but it seems apparent that they do not think so and don't care 

[Mr. Fox]

On 6/28/2023 at 7:47 PM, tps3443 said:

Im not planning to upgrade for a while still, few times came across where I almost bought a 4090 came very close, but didn’t want to waste the money and didn’t do it. I don’t mind turning down a setting or bumping DLSS to the next faster notch up for 4K. Neither option has been needed just yet. Now it looks like RTX5000 series is not coming out until 2025? All the more reason to keep my 3090 I guess lol. Hopefully it runs good with Bethesdas new Starfield game at 4K! 🫣

A good 4090 is nothing short of amazing, but even the cheapest model is a very poor value. All new GPUs are a poor value to be honest. The 4090 is the king of performance and the master of poor value  I love my 4090 Suprim, but when I remember that I paid $1800 for it I regret having been so frivolous and unintelligent. We are blinded by our sickness, and that allows them to get away with screwing us. They know that and take advantage of our foolishness.

[tps3443]

33 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

A good 4090 is nothing short of amazing, but even the cheapest model is a very poor value. All new GPUs are a poor value to be honest. The 4090 is the king of performance and the master of poor value  I love my 4090 Suprim, but when I remember that I paid $1800 for it I regret having been so frivolous and unintelligent. We are blinded by our sickness, and that allows them to get away with screwing us. They know that and take advantage of our foolishness.

I’ll definitely buy the refresh CPU’s for Z790 later this year. But I’m okay on GPU’s for now. I game a few hours a week usually. Maybe 3 hours per week. I mostly work and use my CPU more 6-8+ hours a day. I did game a lot more in the past and really have thousands of hours on my 3090. So much so that if it stopped working right now I would not be surprised one bit, mainly because of the constant high wattage it has ran for so long now. EVGA really does make a good GPU. 
 

But yes the addiction is real at times. 4090 Super could launch at any time, and I would be like 🧐 🥺 haha, even though I really don’t need it one bit. 
 

 

[Mr. Fox]

14 minutes ago, tps3443 said:

I’ll definitely buy the refresh CPU’s for Z790 later this year. But I’m okay on GPU’s for now. I game a few hours a week usually. Maybe 3 hours per week. I mostly work and use my CPU more 6-8+ hours a day. I did game a lot more in the past and really have thousands of hours on my 3090. So much so that if it stopped working right now I would not be surprised one bit, mainly because of the constant high wattage it has ran for so long now. EVGA really does make a good GPU. 
 

But yes the addiction is real at times. 4090 Super could launch at any time, and I would be like 🧐 🥺 haha, even though I really don’t need it one bit. 
 

 

I like First Person Shooter games a lot, but I probably play games less than 10 hours a year. I don't usually have time for it, and when I do have time I prefer to spend it benching rather than gaming. Benching is like a game to me. You do not need a 4090 for gaming if you have a 3090, or even a 3080. Certainly nice to have a 4090, but need and nice are often used inappropriately as a synonym. Some people don't recognize that want and need mean two totally different things, LOL.