The problem with Windows 11, as I see it...

[Etern4l]

Windows 10 and 11 (to expand/clarify the system classification: the casual user, gamer and general corporate worker-oriented OSes) are resource hogs compared to Linux, and quite a bit slower. With Linux we are talking about sub 1GB RAM utilization on some distros. No need to invoke the Amiga OS strawman.

[Steerpike]

On 11/2/2022 at 7:34 PM, Etern4l said:

The problem with Windows with general is that you leave too much performance on the table. Casual users don't mind, which is what this system is all about.

 

I understand what you are saying but I would suggest 'casual user' is not the right term. Heavy duty business users don't give a hoot about 'performance' - they want stability (no OS crashes, no App crashes, etc). Windows 10 was probably the most stable OS I've ever used, and ... so far ... windows 11 has been equally rock-solid (no BSODs, no lock-ups, no need to reboot to 'cure' a problem, etc - THOSE are the things that make an OS suck!).  'Performance' generally means 'speed', and speed is only an issue for gamers, heavy-duty video editors, and perhaps those hosting multiple VMs. I intentionally throttle my laptop's performance simply to stop the fans from running, and it doesn't affect my use of any app in any meaningful way. I don't consider myself a 'casual user'; I'm on my laptop for at least 8 hours a day (though I don't play games and don't edit videos any longer). 

On 11/3/2022 at 1:15 PM, GeekBear80 said:

The standards of today are very low, though and compared to Android 12/13 (which are the worst systems I have ever encountered),

... 

compared to the absolute filth that is Android 12/13 in 2022, ...

What bugs you so much about Android 12/13? I've been an Android user since about 2014, which (have to look it up ...) suggests Android 4.4 (Kit Kat).  All I've noticed as I've progressed through the versions is that things have become more responsive - tapping on something is now almost instantaneous. I attribute this to the improved hardware, though - I've progressed from Samsung S5 to S10+ over the years (new phone every 2+ years).  Looks like my current S10+ has Android 12. 

 

Other than responsiveness, I can't say I've noticed anything significant with the different versions.  My biggest gripe about any smartphone is the limited screen size, and that's not the fault of the OS. 

[Aaron44126]

Likewise, I'm on Windows but I do not consider myself a "casual user" in the least.  What's keeping me on Windows isn't performance.  It's as simple as: If I were to switch to Linux, I wouldn't be able to run apps that I use.  Some apps have open source equivalents that I could try (Photoshop, Lightroom, Outlook, Visual Studio, SSMS) — I've dabbled around and generally found the experience and feature set to be compromised.  Some apps that I use heavily simply have no viable alternative on Linux without just resorting to running a Windows VM (OneNote, Quicken, iTunes for iOS device management).

 

Not that I'm not interested.  I'd love to give Microsoft the boot.  I use Linux in a VM regularly and I used to manage Linux servers, so I am rather comfortable with it.  I have an actual list of 25 or so bullet points of items that I'd have to address to switch to it as my daily driver.  (Some of those are just along the lines of "understand this better" or "figure this out", but several of them are actual missing apps.)  It doesn't seem possible to whittle that list down to 0 right now.  For now, the "computing experience compromise" is not worth a few %'s of performance boost that I most likely wouldn't notice.

 

The sort of sad thing is, (aside from gaming) it would be easier for me to switch to macOS than Linux, mostly just because of the apps that I use (most of them exist on Windows and Mac but not Linux).  But I can't stand Apple's laptop hardware, so that's not happening either.

[Etern4l]

13 hours ago, Steerpike said:

I understand what you are saying

 

That's cool, although for this to be deeply true, you would need to be a power user with lots of Linux and Windows experience. Some of the points you have made contradict that though.

 

13 hours ago, Steerpike said:

'casual user' is not the right term.

 

I accept that and propose an improvement: a light user. People who don't really require a particularly powerful computer.

 

13 hours ago, Steerpike said:

I intentionally throttle my laptop's performance simply to stop the fans from running, and it doesn't affect my use of any app in any meaningful way.

 

 

All clear, you are a light user. There is nothing wrong with that, and none of my remarks apply to your computing experience or system requirements. You will be very happy with either Windows or a Mac system.

 

13 hours ago, Steerpike said:

Heavy duty business users don't give a hoot about 'performance'

 

That's a bit of an overgeneralization mixed with a contradiction. A huge swathe of business users are not really that 'heavy duty' in the system performance sense, and consequently have at best a vague idea of basic concepts around computer system performance to begin with. As long as Edge and Office work, all is fine. Those business users constitute prime Windows customer base although many also use Macs mainly for reasons such as style, aesthetics and niche software compatibility.

 

For clarity's sake, heavy duty / power users would include creative people like 3D artists, architects, video editors, but also many (but not all) software developers, data scientists, some engineers, and indeed most gamers and gaming industry professionals. As you can see the spectrum is wider than what you suggested, and I am sure the list could be further expanded.

 

13 hours ago, Steerpike said:

Windows 10 was probably the most stable OS I've ever used, and ... so far ... windows 11 has been equally rock-solid (no BSODs, no lock-ups, no need to reboot to 'cure' a problem, etc - THOSE are the things that make an OS suck!).

 

There isn't a huge complaint regarding stability of the recent versions of Windows, although your experience seems somewhat idealized. This is a function of both the distance you have covered trying to push the system, and your reference points (which appear to be historical versions of Windows).

 

BTW reliability and high performance are not mutually exclusive.

 

I would say that even people who claim they don't give a damn about performance, sometimes haven't really had a chance to appreciate the benefits of a more responsive system. It's a comfort zone trap and affects all of us to some extent. I recall thinking at one point "who apart from gamers needs a 120Hz monitor, 60Hz is fine".. until I had a chance to explore and experience a 120Hz monitor 🙂

 

13 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

For now, the "computing experience compromise" is not worth a few %'s of performance boost that I most likely wouldn't notice.

 

The potential performance boost is more in the 10-30%+ range depending on the distribution and applications. Whether the "Linux computing experience" is a compromise or not depends on the extent to which the performance improvements contribute to it, the use cases,  open mindedness to alternatives, the raw technical skills and the general levels of satisfaction one derives from working in a *nix environment (from non-technical people the last component will be nil). For example, I have seen a definite improvement in computing experience over Windows.

 

Rather than pointlessly argue for light users to switch to Linux (those who have some motivation will find a way), I would tease Microsoft to try and bridge the performance gap - although that seems like a pretty tall order as well, especially given the direction of travel. Should that miracle happen though, all Windows users would stand to strictly benefit, whether they currently think they would notice the improvement or not.

[Steerpike]

On 11/4/2022 at 2:39 PM, Etern4l said:

 

That's cool, although for this to be deeply true, you would need to be a power user with lots of Linux and Windows experience. Some of the points you have made contradict that though.

...

I accept that and propose an improvement: a light user. People who don't really require a particularly powerful computer.

...

All clear, you are a light user. There is nothing wrong with that, and none of my remarks apply to your computing experience or system requirements. You will be very happy with either Windows or a Mac system.

 

 

FWIW, I've been a programmer/IT professional since 1982, and spent much of my career running IT departments for startups in silicon valley.  I've setup linux boxes on AWS hosting numerous business applications, and supported thousands of end users with laptops in the field. I'm semi-retired now, but I understand the needs of real business users - people who need computers to get their jobs done. 

 

You are correct that there are several types of users who need 'performance', and I'd agree that developers are in that mix, as well as 3-D designers, in addition to the others I mentioned. My objection to the term 'casual user' (and 'light user') is that it implies limited exposure / needs - sounds like someone who fires up their laptop for an hour or so to check on social media, or stock prices, or to send/receive an email.  'Workers' of many types need reliable, efficient access to information through their computers, and they need it 8 hours a day.  The complaints I heard from users were predominantly reliability-based - crashes, lockups, reboots, BSODs, etc.  When performance was an issue, it was almost always network based, or, server-side application based. 

 

I don't doubt that linux systems are more 'efficient' from a pure performance standpoint, and linux for servers seems reasonably mature (redhat, etc); but getting reliable linux drivers for the latest 'consumer laptop' hardware still seems to be a challenge.  At the consumer level, WiFi drivers, bluetooth drivers, graphics drivers, chipset drivers, fingerprint reader drivers, keyboard backlight drivers, etc all seem to be a challenge for linux at the laptop/desktop level. I'm not interested in spending my time going down such rabbit-holes in pursuit of some benchmark improvement. 

 

Edit To Add - I just did some reading about linux on the two new laptops I just bought - Samsung NP950XDB and LG Gram 17 (2021). Both have driver issues; the Samsung has issues with fingerprint reader, keyboard backlight, and more; the LG gram has issues with webcam (Greg KH Recommends Avoiding Alder Lake Laptops - Intel Webcam Linux Driver Long Ways Out - Phoronix).  

[Reciever]

Neither of those systems come with official support. If they didn't support windows out of the box it would be a highly illogical choice to make based on that criteria. 

 

You would probably be looking at Dell since they officially support Ubuntu iirc and maybe perhaps Lenovo. 

 

 

[Etern4l]

22 hours ago, Steerpike said:

I'm not interested in spending my time going down such rabbit-holes in pursuit of some benchmark improvement. 

 

 

Spending your semi-retirement time as you please is your prerogative, though this is understandable: there is indeed little point in pursuing Linux installation without reasonable motivation. Even a very modest PC will do fine for light use on Windows, and gaming - if that's relevant - is still Windows' domain presumably.

 

22 hours ago, Steerpike said:

 I'm semi-retired now, but I understand the needs of real business users - people who need computers to get their jobs done. 

 

More precisely, it's safe to assume you understand the needs of the very small subset of business users you have come across throughout your career going back to the respectable 1982. It is also safe to assume you have had a more limited exposure to business activity in the last decade. It is interesting that you are not aware of the limitation of your experience and call that small subset of business users "real business users" (I suppose that makes me an unreal business user, I'm happy with that 😊 ). Furthermore, the above is mostly an elaborate objection to the designations "casual" and "light". I would actually sustain the latter term as accurate enough. If a person works 8 hours/day mostly in MS Office and the browser, they don't need powerful laptop/desktop hardware, and sticking with a Windows desktop for these users is very reasonable, especially in a large organization built around Microsoft software. In fact, in some large corporations these days they would just get a virtual desktop terminal. I should clarify "light" in this context is not to be confused with "lightweight", or worse still "intellectually so".

[KING19]

On 11/2/2022 at 4:07 PM, 6730b said:

lol

Considerably more businesses running Windows 7 than Windows 11
https://betanews.com/2022/10/10/businesses-running-windows-7-than-windows-11/

People just aren't switching to Windows 11
https://betanews.com/2022/11/01/windows-11-low-share/

 

Im not surprised because there isnt many improvements over Windows 10. Plus older PCs dont support TPM 2.0 which was a dumb move on Microsoft's part.

 

Also Windows 11's marketshare wont improve much as Windows 12 is supposed to be released in 2024

[Etern4l]

1 hour ago, KING19 said:

 

Im not surprised because there isnt many improvements over Windows 10. Plus older PCs dont support TPM 2.0 which was a dumb move on Microsoft's part.

 

Also Windows 11's marketshare wont improve much as Windows 12 is supposed to be released in 2024

 

I was kind of forced to move to Win 11 a few months ago. Felt like an open beta, definitely less stable than Win 10, more bloatware. Large businesses will be upgrading to this in 2030 if at all.

The quality of this fine OS motivated me to move to Linux. Doesn't seem like I will be looking back.

[GeekBear80]

On 11/4/2022 at 1:13 PM, Aaron44126 said:

Likewise, I'm on Windows but I do not consider myself a "casual user" in the least.  What's keeping me on Windows isn't performance.  It's as simple as: If I were to switch to Linux, I wouldn't be able to run apps that I use.  Some apps have open source equivalents that I could try (Photoshop, Lightroom, Outlook, Visual Studio, SSMS) — I've dabbled around and generally found the experience and feature set to be compromised.  Some apps that I use heavily simply have no viable alternative on Linux without just resorting to running a Windows VM (OneNote, Quicken, iTunes for iOS device management).

 

Not that I'm not interested.  I'd love to give Microsoft the boot.  I use Linux in a VM regularly and I used to manage Linux servers, so I am rather comfortable with it.  I have an actual list of 25 or so bullet points of items that I'd have to address to switch to it as my daily driver.  (Some of those are just along the lines of "understand this better" or "figure this out", but several of them are actual missing apps.)  It doesn't seem possible to whittle that list down to 0 right now.  For now, the "computing experience compromise" is not worth a few %'s of performance boost that I most likely wouldn't notice.

 

The sort of sad thing is, (aside from gaming) it would be easier for me to switch to macOS than Linux, mostly just because of the apps that I use (most of them exist on Windows and Mac but not Linux).  But I can't stand Apple's laptop hardware, so that's not happening either.

I agree with this with the exception of a Mac in 2022, which wouldn't work for me in the slightest even if I used Macs for many years before switching to Windows full-time. As a long time Mac OS X user, I just can't stand the interface design of 'macOS' or the way it has been dumbed down over the last years (last version I used was 10.9.5 Mavericks), while I am perfectly comfortable with Ubuntu MATE as an example. The latter is way more 'similar' to Mac OS X in terms of features and usability than 'macOS', which just rubs me the wrong way like Android 9 and newer (which I absolutely loathe).

As long as I can run my older Windows applications in WINE with a supplemental VM I wouldn't mind switch over to Linux as a daily driver and I would most certainly do so the day it turns out that I am 'stuck' with the Windows 11 interface and can't revert it back to a usable state (i.e. Windows 7 styling). I am way more comfortable using Ubuntu MATE than Windows 11 'stock' in terms of GUI.

 

Since I do have experience of the transition from 68K to PowerPC and also Mac OS 9.x to Mac OS X including the Classic Environment, I wouldn't hesitate with WINE and/or VMs for those applications that need such a solution if need be. 

 

Considering that 'macOS' is 100% incompatible with my Mac OS X library due to Apple policies, I am certainly far more comfortable with Linux/WINE/VM than the frustration I always feel when I use a new Mac since I always benchmark it against my older ones, which really sets me off.

My benefit is probably that I usually prefer older applications, which are easier to run in WINE and the like since I usually don't appreciate 'new' stuff that feels dumbed down unless we are talking about products that are mostly 'intact' since their Windows 7 days with just bug fixes and some features added.

[Etern4l]

28 minutes ago, GeekBear80 said:

while I am perfectly comfortable with Ubuntu MATE as an example

 

MATE desktop is really nice (and super-lightweight), worth checking out if someone hasn't had a chance.

[GeekBear80]

On 11/4/2022 at 3:44 PM, Steerpike said:

 

I understand what you are saying but I would suggest 'casual user' is not the right term. Heavy duty business users don't give a hoot about 'performance' - they want stability (no OS crashes, no App crashes, etc). Windows 10 was probably the most stable OS I've ever used, and ... so far ... windows 11 has been equally rock-solid (no BSODs, no lock-ups, no need to reboot to 'cure' a problem, etc - THOSE are the things that make an OS suck!).  'Performance' generally means 'speed', and speed is only an issue for gamers, heavy-duty video editors, and perhaps those hosting multiple VMs. I intentionally throttle my laptop's performance simply to stop the fans from running, and it doesn't affect my use of any app in any meaningful way. I don't consider myself a 'casual user'; I'm on my laptop for at least 8 hours a day (though I don't play games and don't edit videos any longer). 

What bugs you so much about Android 12/13? I've been an Android user since about 2014, which (have to look it up ...) suggests Android 4.4 (Kit Kat).  All I've noticed as I've progressed through the versions is that things have become more responsive - tapping on something is now almost instantaneous. I attribute this to the improved hardware, though - I've progressed from Samsung S5 to S10+ over the years (new phone every 2+ years).  Looks like my current S10+ has Android 12. 

 

Other than responsiveness, I can't say I've noticed anything significant with the different versions.  My biggest gripe about any smartphone is the limited screen size, and that's not the fault of the OS. 

Android 12/13 is toy systems with serious artificial restrictions such as SafetyNet, locked bootloaders (can't reflash the device with a proper system), rootblocks (i.e. can't elevate permissions in the locked down system), a dumbed down interface (such as Google reducing and dumbing down quick settings, kiddie styled graphical elements everywhere, hidden settings, 10 second timers that pop up warning for dangers when changing specific settings and so on). They also break features (such as when Android 8.x/Oreo broke my WiFi automation), implement automatic permissions reset, implement artificial app blocks (i.e. prevent older apps from running), providing 'different interfaces on different devices' that make people ask me why app X has one look on one device and a different look on another one et al), ads galore (that can't be fixed in a proper way without root since SafetyNet break apps when rooting the device)... The list goes on and on.

I started to use Android on 2.2 Froyo and the last version I accept is 7.1.x Nougat and even at the time, I started to encounter annoying issues with using flash drives due to Google restrictions (I had to use StickMount to make it work properly). So I would say that 5.1.x Lollipop was the last version I really liked that just worked and it worked fast.

Another thing is that the performance of newer Android versions are atrocious when I compare to something like Lollipop and even Nougat. I do have a Nokia 6.1 with Android 10 and it is far, far slower than my 2016 Xiaomi Mi Max running Nougat. It is a huge performance difference and the same can be noted with Android x86 where every new version is getting slower and slower.

It is also telling that a device with 2GB RAM could run Lollipop perfectly fine with everything configured, Xposed Framework running with several modules and so on and Google now offer 'Android Go' - a really dumbed down system for that kind of hardware. I.e. far less features and zero flexibility in a dumbed down system due to their drastically increased system requirements. Yes, Windows seems to be super-optimized in comparison considering that I can run LTSC perfectly OK on a 4GB RAM PC.

Responsiveness wasn't an issue with Android before 2014 either. I still have devices from that time and they run Lollipop perfectly fine and fast to boot.

 

So I simply don't like anything about newer Android versions beginning with Pie (Oreo is a version I don't like but I can accept it) and they make me really annoyed, even more so when people start defending them with such arguments as "it doesn't matter that feature X is removed because ordinary people doesn't use it" or "I haven't rooted for X years so it doesn't matter that the device is rootblocked" or "It doesn't matter that the bootloader is locked because I never reflash my device" and so on. 

My latest encounter with Android 12 made me quickly rename the system 'iDiotdroid' and I also did write an ironic song about the beautiful little timers of Google (i.e. 10 seconds of countdown to allow sideloading et al).

Android hardware in 2022 isn't my cup of tea either; every single device in the market is downright annoying because of stupid design choices paired with the dumbed down idiotic operating system. The narrow 18-21:9 displays also make me really frustrated and the same goes with the rubbish hardware sold at insane price tags ($1500 is just offensive for such a trash toy as an Android device) with really retarded arguments such as: "It has the best camera" and "it has the best display" (yes, like people said every year since it seems like everything revolves around those two features). 

 

So no, Android is not my cup of tea and I just don't like the system, the hardware or the arguments used to defend the situation (when people are making excuses on behalf of Google/OEM/carriers and try to 'explain away' artificial restrictions and dumbdowns my blood really boils and it just make me dislike the system even more).

 

The best version of Android I ever used was 4.3 PAC with honorable mention of 4.4.4 KitKat and 5.1 Lollipop. Android 12/13 is downright offensive when I compare and really feels like toys made for kids who need their hands held at all times since they can't think for themselves and need 'Mama Google' and 'Papa OEM' to guide them at all times... Not to forget the carrier, which filters the market since those sheep think the only brand ever is Samsung (their devices are just irony so that's a plus, though - I really appreciate when they can warm my coffee cup or even burst into romantic flames, which is so beautiful in the night). 

 

Claiming that Android 12 would be a good system because it is "smooth" remind me of those users arguing about their 120 Hz displays and make it sound like they got erotic sensations just by stroking their devices... "It is so smoooooth when I scrooooll on this 120 Hz device in comparison with the other one with 'only' 60 Hz..." 

The camera arguments, especially the "it is worth paying more to get the best camera" when it is a driver we are talking about (since the actual hardware is a standard Sony sensor in many cases) are also funny, even more so when those people behave like they are talking Hasselblad vs Leica vs Nikon vs Canon when the subject is smartphone cameras in auto mode to boot....

So no, Android 9 Pie and newer isn't my cup of tea and is downright 100% annoyances.

 

On 11/8/2022 at 12:50 PM, Etern4l said:

 

MATE desktop is really nice, worth checking out if someone hasn't had a chance.

I really like MATE and it kind of reminds me of Mac OS 8.x/9.x to some extent with sprinkles of Mac OS X (10.0->10.6.8). So I'm really comfortable with that environment.

[Papusan]

Why so upset about this fantastic new modern OS? Microsoft try so hard they can to make Win 11 to a better experience for you all. So give them some credit, LOOL

 

Microsoft is bringing more ads to Windows 11

[Reciever]

I just Nova Launcher to get back to the AOSP feel of things

[GeekBear80]

On 11/8/2022 at 2:17 PM, Reciever said:

I just Nova Launcher to get back to the AOSP feel of things

I am afraid that I don't see how Nova Launcher (which I have been using since ICS) could ever compensate what Google did beginning with Android 9 Pie in terms of regression. It's a great launcher but it doesn't solve the underlying issues, which are many. 

 

On 11/8/2022 at 1:34 PM, Papusan said:

Why so upset about this fantastic new modern OS? Microsoft try so hard they can to make Win 11 to a better experience for you all. So give them some credit, LOOL

 

Microsoft is bringing more ads to Windows 11

They learned from a system named Android, which is no 1 in terms of being ad filled. 

What I would argue, though is that this exact behavior is what Android users enable with their arguments about "removing features in the name of simplicity", "things must be simple for the casual user at the expense of removing features", "restrictions are good for the casual user" and so on and so forth. Microsoft could see where the winds are blowing and it seems like ads, "friendly highlights" and "tips" are highly appreciated nowadays.

Google is certainly very pushy for their services so I wouldn't expect Microsoft to act any differently in todays climate.

[Etern4l]

21 minutes ago, GeekBear80 said:

They learned from a system named Android, which is no 1 in terms of being ad filled. 

What I would argue, though is that this exact behavior is what Android users enable with their arguments about "removing features in the name of simplicity", "things must be simple for the casual user at the expense of removing features", "restrictions are good for the casual user" and so on and so forth. Microsoft could see where the winds are blowing and it seems like ads, "friendly highlights" and "tips" are highly appreciated nowadays.

Google is certainly very pushy for their services so I wouldn't expect Microsoft to act any differently in todays climate.

 

All of that would be kind of understandable if Windows was free. So, now Microsoft figured they can charge for the OS and stuff it with ads too. Nice.

[Papusan]

1 hour ago, GeekBear80 said:

They learned from a system named Android, which is no 1 in terms of being ad filled. 

What I would argue, though is that this exact behavior is what Android users enable with their arguments about "removing features in the name of simplicity", "things must be simple for the casual user at the expense of removing features", "restrictions are good for the casual user" and so on and so forth. Microsoft could see where the winds are blowing and it seems like ads, "friendly highlights" and "tips" are highly appreciated nowadays.

Google is certainly very pushy for their services so I wouldn't expect Microsoft to act any differently in todays climate.

People pay near 200$ for a upgrade to the Pro version.... Minor changes vs the Home Edition but offer same amount ads Buy and Download Windows 11 Pro | Microsoft

 

At least Microsoft should at least offer an "opt out button" on the start menu for the Pro version that stop all madness coming from Redmonds' software engineers. This before you even connect to the network. It should also be implemented in the ISO for first time install. 

 

 

[Reciever]

1 hour ago, GeekBear80 said:

I am afraid that I don't see how Nova Launcher (which I have been using since ICS) could ever compensate what Google did beginning with Android 9 Pie in terms of regression. It's a great launcher but it doesn't solve the underlying issues, which are many. 

Naturally, its but one tool. 

 

You may have interest for this as well, though it only works on a limited set of devices. 

 

https://grapheneos.org/features

 

I personally miss my M7, most mod-able phone I ever had. Still supported I think in those circles.

[GeekBear80]

On 11/8/2022 at 6:19 PM, Reciever said:

Naturally, its but one tool. 

 

You may have interest for this as well, though it only works on a limited set of devices. 

 

https://grapheneos.org/features

 

I personally miss my M7, most mod-able phone I ever had. Still supported I think in those circles.

 

I have given up on smartphones altogether so I don't really see how anything based on Android 9 Pie and newer could solve any of the major issues, especially not SafetyNet unless we would get a completely independent payment system that can work on reflashed devices. 

The problem I have is when people make it sound like a new launcher somehow "solves" or "mitigates" the issues Google created when that would be like saying "Windows 11 is the best system since you can install Start11 on it". Yes, you can but it doesn't change the fact that Microsoft messed up the Start menu big time. 

Smartphones are nothing more than "digital wallets" to me nowadays and I use them as little as possible. 

 

On 11/8/2022 at 5:53 PM, Papusan said:

People pay near 200$ for a upgrade to the Pro version.... Minor changes vs the Home Edition but offer same amount ads Buy and Download Windows 11 Pro | Microsoft

 

At least Microsoft should at least offer an "opt out button" on the start menu for the Pro version that stop all madness coming from Redmonds' software engineers. This before you even connect to the network. It should also be implemented in the ISO for first time install. 

 

 

Microsoft should either remove Pro altogether or merge it with Enterprise (i.e. revert back to the Windows XP principle or Windows 2000 for that matter). It is insane that we now have a "Pro" version, which is nothing more than a glorified "Home", while the real Pro users need to go direct to Enterprise. 

The ads could be OK if there would be a "free" tier of Home edition as long as there is a way of going to Microsoft Store and "opt-out" by upgrading to a "full" version. 

I blame Google and their followers for this mess considering their "acceptance" level is so low that they are happy to pay $1500+ for an ad filled device that play ads everywhere, paired with locked bootloaders and root restrictions including SafetyNet. So if they are willing to pay top dollars for ads, Microsoft will follow and join in.

People get what their mentality deserves and since they defend the situation using different arguments (including the ability to drain the battery by connecting to a VPN to block ads), they will also receive their fair share of "ad love" from Microsoft.

Edit: I do have issues with people defending Android (Pie and newer) and they also include "explanations", especially those revolving around "regular people" or "casual users". OK fine, the system is designed for them. Good, I am not in any of those categories so I better avoid that platform like a plague, then. 

[Etern4l]

8 minutes ago, GeekBear80 said:

Microsoft should either remove Pro altogether or merge it with Enterprise 

 

Well, Pro is definitely preferable to Home, but I would not  require any features offered by Enterprise on a personal device.

They should just scrap Home, as this is essentially nothing more than dumbed down Pro (or merge Pro and Home if you like) to reinforce the renewed sense of Windows' purpose in the world ;)

[GeekBear80]

4 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

Well, Pro is definitely preferable to Home, but I would not  require any features offered by Enterprise on a personal device.

They should just scrap Home, as this is essentially nothing more than dumbed down Pro (or merge Pro and Home if you like) to reinforce the renewed sense of Windows' purpose in the world ;)

Considering that we had Windows 2000 Professional and Windows XP Pro, I would consider it most logical to simply make "Pro" the standard "Enterprise" edition for workstations and have it as a debloated system and then reintroduce "Ultimate" for very demanding users and then let "Home" be the same more or less as the current "Pro".

I am not fond of using "Pro" as a consumer product word.

[Etern4l]

36 minutes ago, GeekBear80 said:

Considering that we had Windows 2000 Professional and Windows XP Pro, I would consider it most logical to simply make "Pro" the standard "Enterprise" edition for workstations and have it as a debloated system and then reintroduce "Ultimate" for very demanding users and then let "Home" be the same more or less as the current "Pro".

I am not fond of using "Pro" as a consumer product word.

 

The proposal to get rid of Enterprise and just offer everything in Pro (as currently priced) would sound good. As long as they don't remove Pro and start charging people who would like the basics such as remote desktop, basic encryption or bitlocker $500 for an Enterprise licence. Or rather it would be great if they did that, as the resulting pain would likely motivate more people to break free of the shackles :) 

[GeekBear80]

29 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

The proposal to get rid of Enterprise and just offer everything in Pro (as currently priced) would sound good. As long as they don't remove Pro and start charging people who would like the basics such as remote desktop, basic encryption or bitlocker $500 for an Enterprise licence. Or rather it would be great if they did that, as the resulting pain would likely motivate more people to break free of the shackles :) 

Just do this: Rename "Enterprise" into either "Ultimate" or "Pro for Workgroups" (as opposed to the Pro or Pro Workstation edition) and then make "Pro" a system similar to Windows 2000 Professional or XP Pro simply put. 

Ergo:

Windows 11 Home
Windows 11 Pro for Workstations (or just Pro)
Windows 11 Ultimate

Pro should simply be a system for work without consumer bloat. All those "consumer experiences" should be in the Home edition. 

It make no sense that "Pro" is a "Home with extra features" as opposed to a workstation system. There NT was even better when they had NT Workstation and NT Server.

[Etern4l]

They could also just offer a single Pro/Home OS and make it more customisable. They could allow the user to choose which features they prefer at install time and dynamically, Linux style.

'Home', 'Pro' would just be default templates, or discounted feature bundles.

 

The fact that they want to charge extra for "pro" and enterprise features, while keeping the pricing model simple would complicate this, hence all this editions mess. That's solvable though, and would probably generate some extra revenue for them (e.g. they could charge $10 for bitlocker, and some people would pay that, but not pay for a whole "Pro" bundle). Ads and tracking should only be present as an opt-in and this should result in a heavily discount or provision of a free licence.

 

More choice and transparency for the consumers. I think that is how Windows might move towards making people feel a renewed sense of purpose of the OS in the modern world, rather than through virtue singalling around Apple's negative PR events.

[Reciever]

1 hour ago, GeekBear80 said:

 

I have given up on smartphones altogether so I don't really see how anything based on Android 9 Pie and newer could solve any of the major issues, especially not SafetyNet unless we would get a completely independent payment system that can work on reflashed devices. 

The problem I have is when people make it sound like a new launcher somehow "solves" or "mitigates" the issues Google created when that would be like saying "Windows 11 is the best system since you can install Start11 on it". Yes, you can but it doesn't change the fact that Microsoft messed up the Start menu big time. 

Smartphones are nothing more than "digital wallets" to me nowadays and I use them as little as possible. 

Well I dont have any payments on my devices, nor do I connect any finance to my phone, I remote to my PC at home for that sort of thing. Debit and Cash takes care of all of my needs. Though others may see differently, which is fine. 

 

I didnt claim that it solves everything, just that it gets me back to AOSP feel as I had used it around the time the M7 was prominent. That with GrapheneOS puts another layer for permissions across the board even Gapps with ties to finance. You have given up, however so I guess this is a dead horse.

 

I use my phone to surf, moderate and admin this forum. It serves me well in those regards when we have reports that quickly need attention.