The problem with Windows 11, as I see it...

[GeekBear80]

I gave up on smartphones in 2018 and I haven't seen a single sign of anything getting better yet. So what I did was eventually to get an iPhone SE as a "digital wallet", which is what I use it for and the rest is done on a PC. 

My requirements are such that no device in 2022 is even close to fulfilling them even if the devices I did use in 2010 managed to tick a lot of the boxes. Android 9 Pie is when I drew the line and developed a strong antipathy against smartphones and the users defending them (I really have a hard time with users defending restrictions and other stupidities). 

When there's a proper pocketable Linux device or Windows ditto that can dock to desktop, I will be a happy camper. The closest here are the OneNetbook A1 and the GPD Micro PC. 

The problem is also that Google did dumb down Android to such an extent that a new ROM isn't the solution either since it would be necessary to go back to Nougat or even better Lollipop as a base in order to get something decent, which in turn would be a far more complex project than ROM developers usually can handle plus that such a system would be pretty much incompatible with all Google "API artificial restricted" App Bundles (appb). 

It would be like someone "redesigning" Windows 11 into a version with Windows 7 interface and layout including a fully restored Control Panel. Even if the source code would be available, it would be a huge undertaking. 

[Reciever]

2 minutes ago, GeekBear80 said:

I gave up on smartphones in 2018 and I haven't seen a single sign of anything getting better yet. So what I did was eventually to get an iPhone SE as a "digital wallet", which is what I use it for and the rest is done on a PC. 

My requirements are such that no device in 2022 is even close to fulfilling them even if the devices I did use in 2010 managed to tick a lot of the boxes. Android 9 Pie is when I drew the line and developed a strong antipathy against smartphones and the users defending them (I really have a hard time with users defending restrictions and other stupidities). 

When there's a proper pocketable Linux device or Windows ditto that can dock to desktop, I will be a happy camper. The closest here are the OneNetbook A1 and the GPD Micro PC. 

The problem is also that Google did dumb down Android to such an extent that a new ROM isn't the solution either since it would be necessary to go back to Nougat or even better Lollipop as a base in order to get something decent, which in turn would be a far more complex project than ROM developers usually can handle plus that such a system would be pretty much incompatible with all Google "API artificial restricted" App Bundles (appb). 

It would be like someone "redesigning" Windows 11 into a version with Windows 7 interface and layout including a fully restored Control Panel. Even if the source code would be available, it would be a huge undertaking. 

Kinda got that point in your first post. 

 

Pocketable Linux devices have been around for a while, none of them were enticing enough for me personally but perhaps the landscape has changed since I last looked closer at it. 

 

 

[Aaron44126]

Here they are (maybe eventually) allowing users to add seconds to the taskbar clock, addressing one of my major gripes about this OS. It might seem like a small thing, but I rely on this on a regular basis.

 

https://www.neowin.net/news/windows-11-will-soon-let-you-enable-seconds-in-system-tray-clock/

 

(Still plan to wait for the next LTSC before considering a switch.)

 

[Edit]

Today's Insider build also includes the option to show seconds on the taskbar clock.

https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2022/11/18/announcing-windows-11-insider-preview-build-25247/

[Etern4l]

The seconds are very handy, it's baffling why such a basic limitation exists in Windows. It's one of those things I guess. 

 

The conspiracy theorist in me is suggesting this could be because seeing seconds fly by might make users more conscious and anxious about the time wasted watching ads... Sounds plausible, actually. 

[Papusan]

On 11/17/2022 at 1:18 PM, Aaron44126 said:

Here they are (maybe eventually) allowing users to add seconds to the taskbar clock, addressing one of my major gripes about this OS. It might seem like a small thing, but I rely on this on a regular basis.

 

https://www.neowin.net/news/windows-11-will-soon-let-you-enable-seconds-in-system-tray-clock/

 

(Still plan to wait for the next LTSC before considering a switch.)

 

[Edit]

Today's Insider build also includes the option to show seconds on the taskbar clock.

https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2022/11/18/announcing-windows-11-insider-preview-build-25247/

And you'll get fantastic features as subscription services deeper into the Windows 11 operating system. Isn't that nice?

 

You will also get more nice features as etc websites recommendations to Start menu. Microsoft will do everything for you. Just pick the right OS 

 

Yep, Microsoft make their latest and greatest worse and worse for each new major update. Can't beat that. A OS filled with useless features only to gain themself.

On 11/17/2022 at 1:47 PM, Etern4l said:

The seconds are very handy, it's baffling why such a basic limitation exists in Windows. It's one of those things I guess. 

 

The conspiracy theorist in me is suggesting this could be because seeing seconds fly by might make users more conscious and anxious about the time wasted watching ads... Sounds plausible, actually. 

Microsoft explains why it won't add seconds to Windows 11.....

[Etern4l]

5 hours ago, Papusan said:

Yep, Microsoft make their latest and greatest worse and worse for each new major update. Can't beat that. A OS filled with useless features only to gain themself.

Microsoft explains why it won't add seconds to Windows 11.....

 

" The company has removed the feature entirely and one of the reasons could be performance issues."

 

LOL. Well, non-technical people could well buy this. How much power do you need to refresh the miniscule fraction of the screen containing seconds? In the unlikely case there was a legitimate concern, which I highly doubt, they could have added a power-saving mode where the second updates are suspended when there is otherwise no load on the machine. Honestly, I like my explanation better :)

[Ishayin]

On 11/10/2022 at 12:36 AM, GeekBear80 said:

I gave up on smartphones in 2018...

 

I have to agree with a lot of what you have said in your posts. I've taken to leaving my phone switched off, and only switch it on maybe once a week or less if say I'm expecting a delivery, or need an SMS OTA code. It is Android 4, with perfectly working hardware and a battery I can very cheaply and quickly replace in a matter of seconds. The frustration is that an increasing number of apps are no longer supporting Android 4, and even those that claim to are becoming more buggy as they skimp on testing on it.

So after getting my mother a new phone earlier this year I managed to inherit her old Android 8 device as part of the deal, and have been fixing it up to be (more or less) Google free. I have to say, that F-Droid is so much nicer to use than Google Play, and that change alone goes a lot of the way towards feeling like I actually own my phone (and anything you really need from the Play store you can get via the Aurora Store alternative front-end).

I seriously considered installing /e/OS, and it looks like it has matured a lot over the past couple of years, but apart from losing the default camera app, the main concern I had with it was that it would upgrade me to an Android 10 base, which from hearing from others here I'm not sure is really an upgrade.

 

When I (and most other people) do all the exact same tasks with my phone as I did 10 years ago, on hardware that was perfectly capable of the job then. I really can't understand why everyone feels the need to buy new devices so regularly. And the same goes for our larger computing devices too. To me it really highlights why we so badly need the longer term resilience of open standards along with open source software.

 

On a personal level, I no longer have any desire to expend my limited lifespan towards either developing or learning proprietary systems which are inevitably destined to disappear for one stupid reason or another. I've just had yet another crucial piece of Windows software (that was also relied on by many others – geosetter.de), die on me because of a single developer's personal circumstances. I really feel for people in that position, but if you insist on keeping your babies to yourself, they will never flourish.

 

Oh, this is supposed to be a Windows 11 thread... Ack, nobody cares about Windows 11! 

[Aaron44126]

Yeah, well, I have a big work project finishing up at the end of the year that's been consuming all of my time.  I'm thinking about taking a week off and just spending it messing with Linux and see if I can make that feasible to switch to.  😛

(If I don't do something like that, I'll never have time to look into it.)

[Ishayin]

 

27 minutes ago, Aaron44126 said:

Yeah, well, I have a big work project finishing up at the end of the year that's been consuming all of my time.  I'm thinking about taking a week off and just spending it messing with Linux and see if I can make that feasible to switch to.  😛

(If I don't do something like that, I'll never have time to look into it.)

 

If you do so I'll certainly be interested to hear how you get on. Especially regarding the state of WINE nowadays with e.g. Bottles etc.

I'm also leaning that way myself, and learning more about Linux a little at a time. Though I'm in no particular rush as expect to get a good few more years out of my main Windows 8.1 machine yet.

[Etern4l]

I haven't had a chance to play around with Wine yet. Everything I need is available as a native Linux version or a better alternative, with the slight exception of Libre Office which is a bit more clunky than Office, but still workable at this point. Should I need support for native Windows apps, I would indeed try Wine quickly, but then just run Windows in a VM if that fails. 

[Aaron44126]

I have some apps that I know won’t work well in Wine. OneNote is a good example. (You can run it in Wine with some work, but syncing notebooks online is not possible.) There’s no comparable Linux product. I fully expect that if I were to switch, I’d still be running a Windows VM basically full-time.

[Etern4l]

And that's OK. A VM is really not that different from other apps in practice, just need to pay the extra RAM cost. What I would do though is have a look for alternatives. In this case, the first hit looks surprisingly promising - almost 5 stars on flathub is rare. One click to install, looks fine - not sure if it supports pen inputs (that's how I tried using OneNote for a while).

 

https://alternativeto.net/software/microsoft-onenote/?license=opensource

 

No built-in import from One Note, but some tools are available: https://discourse.joplinapp.org/t/importing-notes-from-other-notebook-applications/22425

 

 

I personally use XMind for note taking, Linux version available straight in the software center. 

[Steerpike]

Not sure if this is a Windows 11 specific issue, but I just ran into it tonight and it confused the heck out of me.  I wanted to test 'speech to text' in outlook (and other office apps).  I've never used the microphone for anything on this laptop yet, so this was to be the first ever use, and I had no idea if it was working or not. So I go into settings / system / sound, 'input' section, 'Microphone array', and there I see ... 

 

Note the button 'Don't Allow'. Now, is that telling me 'the current state' (currently not allowing ...) or, is that telling me the 'button action' (currently allowing, but if you click this, it will 'not allow' ...)?  The logical thing would have been to have a radio button or slider type thing, not a single button with an 'action' on it.  But anyway, I tried the 'start test' button below, and ... didn't work. So I then hit the 'Don't Allow' button (which then changed to 'Allow'), and re-did the 'Start test'.  Still didn't work!  

 

I then remembered that my LG Gram laptop had an overriding 'security' feature to disable microphone and webcam (neither of which I've ever used) - Function + F4. Once I hit that, to 'enable' mic and camera, I was able to successfully test and set up the microphone. 

 

So - in what state is that button above when the microphone is working?  It's WORKING when it says 'Don't Allow'! So "Don't Allow" means, 'currently allowing, but if you click me I will disallow the function'.  I'm not going to argue that this is WRONG, but I'm certainly going to argue that this is ambiguous and could be handled infinitely better! 
 

 

[Aaron44126]

9 hours ago, Steerpike said:

So - in what state is that button above when the microphone is working?  It's WORKING when it says 'Don't Allow'! So "Don't Allow" means, 'currently allowing, but if you click me I will disallow the function'.  I'm not going to argue that this is WRONG, but I'm certainly going to argue that this is ambiguous and could be handled infinitely better!

 

Yes, not "wrong" but definitely not good design.  They could fix it by just adding some text like "Microphone access is currently allowed" near the "Don't allow" button.  (Or better yet, just have a drop-down or radio buttons like you suggested.)

 

The whole thing with microphone access controls is kind of funny.  This has been tacked onto Windows (I'm not sure if they added it in Windows 8 or Windows 10, but it did not exist before), and there are ways for apps to go "around" this function and access the microphone even if access is not allowed according to this control panel setting.

 

——————————————————————————————

 

As an aside, I've been reading some of the complain-y articles by Felipe Contreras on the state of certain things on Linux, and this recent one on GNOME 3 strikes me as echoing some of my complaints about Windows 11.  For those that don't know, GNOME is a desktop environment for Linux, and for a long time it was the most widely used DE, but in 2011 they released GNOME 3 as a major overhaul to much controversy.  Things were dumbed down a fair bit, and there was no way to get back a GNOME 2-like environment, other than continuing to run GNOME 2 (or one of the forks that popped up).

 

GNOME developers were chasing "hypothetical" less techy users with their GNOME 3 design and from their statements you can see that at least some of them think they know what the users want better then the users do, and the project as a whole just did its own thing without really paying attention to user feedback.

 

(.....Sound familiar?)

 

Which runs counter to Linus Torvald's own running on Linux (there is a video about it embedded in that post), which is a philosophy that I really like: don't break user applications or user workflows.  If they make a kernel change and it breaks an application, the kernel change is nearly always reverted, even if the application was "in the wrong" in the way that it was developed or using the Linux API.  Same thing for user workflows using Linux tools.  They might be adding new things on top all of the time, but they won't take away options or workflows that people use.  If something works in a certain way, you can expect it to continue to work that way after the next update.  There is a video on the subject featuring Linus himself embedded in the blog post linked above.

 

(Linux desktop environments like GNOME are outside of Linus's management.)

 

Now, I know that the Windows team has a strong commitment to backwards compatibility for applications, and I comment them there.  (Most applications written for Windows 95 still work on Windows 11, after all.)

 

I just wish that they would also take an approach like that when it comes to core functions of the OS, especially those that "power users" are likely to use.  Things like missing an option for seconds on the taskbar clock, not allowing free placement of pinned items on the Start Menu, removing pretty much all of the customization options with regard to the taskbar, not allowing rounded corners on windows to be turned off, and even adding arbitrary/unnecessary hardware requirements (CPU+TPM) just run counter to this philosophy and that's at the core of one of my major complaints about Windows 11.

 

Or really, I guess I am complaining less about Windows 11 specifically and more about this new direction that Windows has been heading towards since Windows 10's launch.  It's not just about the specific features that I just listed, its also about the fact that now I have to consider the fact that any (obscure?) functions that I make use of to make my life easier may not be there in the next release or the one after that.  And that Microsoft apparently feels that they can change things whenever they want and not stick to a release schedule or allow users to defer updates.  This is partly why I am on Windows LTSC, and also no longer using Windows's built-in file manager or application launcher (and I'd love it if someone could come up with a better/alternate taskbar...).

[Etern4l]

1 hour ago, Aaron44126 said:

As an aside, I've been reading some of the complain-y articles by Felipe Contreras on the state of certain things on Linux, and this recent one on GNOME 3 strikes me as echoing some of my complaints about Windows 11.

 

With all due respect, I don't these comments and Linux in general are in any way comparable to the Win 11 situation. Those are just one or two viewpoints by deeply opinionated people of which there are thousands in the Linux community - consequently, there will always be an opportunity to identify and point out critical opinions regarding virtually any area of the system, and Gnome has always been divisive. This is kind of similar with Windows I guess, but this is where the similarities end. Linux users have far more choice in terms of customisation of the system (don't like Gnome, use one of the several other window managers available). The experience of Gnome (and others, KDE in particular) can be fairly deeply adapted to users' liking via Tweaks and Extensions, something Microsoft doesn't really provide beyond bare basics and the ability to turn off eye candy.

Moreover pretty much anyone can get directly involved in the development to some extent (including testing, feature requests etc.), which is obviously not possible in the Windows world to any meaningful degree apart from beta testing in which all users do involuntarily participate lol 

[Aaron44126]

1 hour ago, Etern4l said:

With all due respect, I don't these comments and Linux in general are in any way comparable to the Win 11 situation.

 

Yeah, I know it's not a super deep connection, and I was definitely aiming the "complaint" sort of comparison at GNOME 3 in particular, not Linux as a whole.  It just sort of rings similar on the "GNOME/Microsoft does what they want, removing features / ignoring the needs of the more techy users / largely ignoring feedback from such users (or at least not giving enough time for feedback before launching their redesign)", something that occurred to me when I read the article.  Otherwise like you say it is a very different situation, I fully realize the situation on Linux is very different — not the least of which is that no one is tied to GNOME on Linux, but Windows users don't have an option to switch out the desktop environment.

 

And I wanted to point out how much I respect Linus Torvalds's approach to running things (clearly different from the GNOME approach) and how I wish Microsoft would be more like that, especially when it comes to bending over backwards to not break/remove things that end users actually use, even if its a small number of users.  😛

[Etern4l]

No forced updates on Linux BTW. Installation of 22 H2 Windows decided to kick off for me in an untimely manner should have been my decision.

[Steerpike]

9 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

...

GNOME developers were chasing "hypothetical" less techy users with their GNOME 3 design and from their statements you can see that at least some of them think they know what the users want better then the users do, and the project as a whole just did its own thing without really paying attention to user feedback.

 

(.....Sound familiar?)

 

This trend also seems to apply to Apple. I've never been a big fan of MacOS but I do occasionally use it, and I've noticed they have taken away many, many features over the years in the interest of streamlining / dumbing down the user interface, and I have a feeling that they are leading that trend.  It seems to be a 'too many choices confuses users' mentality - which impacts 'power users' for the (presumed) benefit of newbies. For whatever reason, many people think Apple's UI is the gold standard and thus, other UI's tend to follow whatever trend MacOS sets. 

[Aaron44126]

1 hour ago, Etern4l said:

No forced updates on Linux BTW. Installation of 22 H2 Windows decided to kick off for me in an untimely manner should have been my decision.

 

Yes, the lack of control over your own system is ... out of control.  Another reason that I am on Windows LTSC which doesn't ever get forced updates to a newer version/build, just a monthly security update package.  Windows LTSC works a lot like how older versions of Windows worked from a maintenance perspective (pre-Windows 10), so I'm OK there, but licenses are sort of a pain for ordinary users to acquire.  In any case, I've been a Windows user for ... a few decades ... and a reasonably happy one for much of that time (once I got off of 9x and onto the NT kernel anyway), and I just have to complain about the direction that they have been taking things in the past few years.

 

I'm very interested in switching to Linux as a daily driver at some point.  I have done a fair amount of thinking on it and I have a literal list of things that would have to be addressed in order to make the switch.  The main problem is, I use some professional software that isn't available on Linux, so basically I have to choose between three options, none of which I especially like:

• Try to run the software in Wine (...I've done some limited testing with this and it didn't go well).
• Run the software in a Windows VM which I basically leave running at all times.  (What's the point of switching then?  It's just going to make my whole setup that much more complicated.)
• Don't switch and just keep using Windows.

Other than that, the other issues that I have mostly require time to overcome.  One is that I would have to reimplement my custom laptop thermal solution on Linux.  (Everything that I need for this is available on Linux, it's just a matter of stringing the pieces together.)  The others just require time to understand how certain things work (full disk encryption + TPM unlock, remote access to a running desktop session, dealing with NVIDIA/Intel hybrid graphics, DPI scaling with Linux applications, DPI scaling with Wine applications, selecting a full system backup solution, .....and like 15 other things....), and then do some trial and error with the available solutions, and decide what I like.  It sounds like a kind of fun thing to tackle, actually, but I don't really have time to commit to it these days.

 

I've been thinking about making a thread about this over in the Linux subforum; my specific issues on switching to Linux are sort of out of scope for this thread.

 

54 minutes ago, Steerpike said:

This trend also seems to applies to Apple. I've never been a big fan of MacOS but I do occasionally use it, and I've noticed they have taken away many, many features over the years in the interest of streamlining / dumbing down the user interface, and I have a feeling that they are leading that trend.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with macOS as well and Apple likes to shuffle stuff around even more than Microsoft does (or at least that was the case until recently).  I do like Apple for a lot of reasons, but I don't think that I could switch to a Mac as my daily driver (though in some ways it would be easier than switching to Linux).

[Etern4l]

3 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

 

Yes, the lack of control over your own system is ... out of control.  Another reason that I am on Windows LTSC which doesn't ever get forced updates to a newer version/build, just a monthly security update package.  Windows LTSC works a lot like how older versions of Windows worked from a maintenance perspective (pre-Windows 10), so I'm OK there, but licenses are sort of a pain for ordinary users to acquire.  In any case, I've been a Windows user for ... a few decades ... and a reasonably happy one for much of that time (once I got off of 9x and onto the NT kernel anyway), and I just have to complain about the direction that they have been taking things in the past few years.

 

I'm very interested in switching to Linux as a daily driver at some point.  I have done a fair amount of thinking on it and I have a literal list of things that would have to be addressed in order to make the switch.  The main problem is, I use some professional software that isn't available on Linux, so basically I have to choose between three options, none of which I especially like:

• Try to run the software in Wine (...I've done some limited testing with this and it didn't go well).
• Run the software in a Windows VM which I basically leave running at all times.  (What's the point of switching then?  It's just going to make my whole setup that much more complicated.)
• Don't switch and just keep using Windows.

Other than that, the other issues that I have mostly require time to overcome.  One is that I would have to reimplement my custom laptop thermal solution on Linux.  (Everything that I need for this is available on Linux, it's just a matter of stringing the pieces together.)  The others just require time to understand how certain things work (full disk encryption + TPM unlock, remote access to a running desktop session, dealing with NVIDIA/Intel hybrid graphics, DPI scaling with Linux applications, DPI scaling with Wine applications, selecting a full system backup solution, .....and like 15 other things....), and then do some trial and error with the available solutions, and decide what I like.  It sounds like a kind of fun thing to tackle, actually, but I don't really have time to commit to it these days.

 

I've been thinking about making a thread about this over in the Linux subforum; my specific issues on switching to Linux are sort of out of scope for this thread.

 

 

Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with macOS as well and Apple likes to shuffle stuff around even more than Microsoft does (or at least that was the case until recently).  I do like Apple for a lot of reasons, but I don't think that I could switch to a Mac as my daily driver (though in some ways it would be easier than switching to Linux).

 

If he said Windows apps are something you would spend most of your time interacting with, then Indeed unless you manage to run them in Wine, the rationale looks weaker. But it's not completely pointless. If you run just some apps on a VM, that's an isolated setup: full image backups are trivialised, any exposure to Windows system or security issues are limited - you are just losing or struggling with a VM, not the main system.

 

Case in point: Windoze 11 auto-launched 22H2 update in background which killed my Windows installation just now, probably because I wasn't ware of this and restarted... If you're going to force background system upgrades on people, implement this robustly (somehow), morons. How difficult would it have been to display a dialog "Windows upgrade is in progress, are you sure you want to restart?".

[Steerpike]

4 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

dealing with NVIDIA/Intel hybrid graphics, DPI scaling with Linux applications, DPI scaling with Wine applications,

I can imagine DPI scaling could be a big challenge. Since my eyesight is not great, and my laptop is higher resolution than I need, I have DPI scaling set to 150%. It seems to work better now in Windows 11 than it ever did in Windows 10 (and MUCH better than in Windows 7) but ... a few apps are still problematic (Quicken is a pain / looks like crap, and Adobe Photoshop Elements was a pain last time I tried, etc). I can imagine things being far worse in Linux! 

[Etern4l]

33 minutes ago, Steerpike said:

I can imagine DPI scaling could be a big challenge. Since my eyesight is not great, and my laptop is higher resolution than I need, I have DPI scaling set to 150%. It seems to work better now in Windows 11 than it ever did in Windows 10 (and MUCH better than in Windows 7) but ... a few apps are still problematic (Quicken is a pain / looks like crap, and Adobe Photoshop Elements was a pain last time I tried, etc). I can imagine things being far worse in Linux! 

 

I don't use this day to day but just tested in Gnome. Just two issues:

1) Only coarse scaling, e.g. 200, 300, 400% - I understand KDE supports fractional scaling down to 6.5% or something like that

2) Some apps needed to be restarted to redraw with new scaling.

 

Other than that, ran through several, including Libre Office - with no  material issues. No surprise since this is based on X Windows which is scaling / DPI aware, and was running on serious workstations at a time when DOS ruled PCs, and Bill Gates was busy copying Mac OS :)

[Aaron44126]

  

37 minutes ago, Steerpike said:

Since my eyesight is not great, and my laptop is higher resolution than I need, I have DPI scaling set to 150%.

 

Windows has very robust high-DPI support (since around Windows 10, version 1703) and it is probably better than any other desktop OS.  But you do have to sort of get how it works in order to use it effectively.  Scaling issues are virtually always the fault of the application, not the OS, often because the application is claiming a level of DPI awareness that it does not actually have, or claiming to be DPI aware but implementing it wrong.  (I use some Java applications at work that claim full DPI awareness but are not actually aware, so they just render everything very tiny on a 4K display set to 200% scaling for example.)  There are options in Windows to override the scaling behavior by-app so in my experience it is always possible to get a workable experience for any application (though you may have to resort to plain bitmap scaling which can make the applications appear blurry).  On the flip side, some apps claim to be DPI unaware but use largely standard GUI elements so no dev work is really required for them to be scaled; such apps can be safely "forced" to run with scaling enabled and they will look better for it.

 

Mainstream applications have come a long way in implementing proper scaling support, as high-DPI displays become more mainstream in both laptops and desktops.  But, I still routinely run into lesser-used business applications that have poor scaling support.

 

So, part of what I meant when I put that in my list for Linux is figuring out how to mange applications that do not scale properly, or override scaling behavior if I so choose.  Can you force applications to run with bitmap scaling if they do not implement scaling properly?  Can you run some applications at a scaling level other than what you have set at the system level?  Do applications running under Wine scale properly at all?  Etc.

 

Scaling is tricky business for a GUI developer.  It's way easier to implement scaling in a macOS application.  macOS only supports 100% and 200% scaling levels.  (All other options that they have are achieved by running applications at 200% and then using bitmap scaling to make them larger or smaller from there — the OS handles that — and it will make apps appear blurry.)  So, application developers just have to provide 1× and 2× versions of various graphical assets and the work is mostly done.  Windows supports any arbitrary scaling level (25% increments in the basic graphics settings screen, but there is an advanced screen where you can enter any scaling value that you like) so it can obviously be more of a pain for applications to properly implement scaling if they are using any custom GUI elements.

 

Some Windows applications support per-monitor scaling, which I greatly appreciate as well.  If you move application windows between monitors running at different scaling levels, the application will adjust the scaling level on the fly.  (Applications that do not support this run at the primary monitor scaling level and are bitmap-scaled up or down when running on other monitors at a different scaling level, again adding a sort of "blur" to them.)  Most Windows built-in apps, UWP apps, and web browsers support per-monitor scaling.  MS Office apps do as well (except OneNote for some reason).  I don't know if any Linux applications support per-monitor scaling.  macOS does not support this at all, it again relies on bitmap scaling to run apps at any level other than 100% or 200%.

 

(Windows has supported DPI scaling since at least Windows 98, which I have recently tested in VMware, but it was sort of a hidden away option so not many applications supported it properly until more recently.  It's only been really usable in more recent versions of Windows, since they have added support for to changing the scaling level without having to log out and start a whole new desktop session, selecting different scaling levels for different monitors in a multi-monitor configuration, overriding the scaling behavior for particular misbehaving applications, signals needed for developers to implement per-monitor DPI awareness, etc.)

 

45 minutes ago, Steerpike said:

Quicken is a pain / looks like crap

 

There's one of my key applications that I would have to figure out how to deal with to switch to Linux.  Quicken is so terrible in its own way, but every other personal finance management solution is far worse, there really is no replacement for it.

 

3 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

I don't use this day to day but just tested in Gnome. Just two issues:

1) Only coarse scaling, e.g. 200, 300, 400% - I understand KDE supports fractional scaling down to 6.5% or something like that

2) Some apps needed to be restarted to redraw with new scaling.

 

1. When I looked into this, my understanding was that KDE isn't running on Wayland yet (or at least that is not the default configuration) which means that using different scaling ratios on different connected monitors is not possible.  (When working, I have my laptop display which is 4K/200% and I pair it with a larger external display which is 4K/125%.)  GNOME and other DEs on Wayland can offer different scaling ratios for different monitors.  (But I did not realize that GNOME has to basically use full integer scaling.....)

2. This is also normal for Windows, some apps have robust support and can switch on the fly but many just use the scaling level that was set at launch need to be restarted to switch.

[Steerpike]

1 hour ago, Aaron44126 said:

 

Windows has very robust high-DPI support (since around Windows 10, version 1703) and it is probably better than any other desktop OS.  But you do have to sort of get how it works in order to use it effectively. 

Would you say that Win 10 is exactly like Win 11 in terms of this area? I was certainly 'happy enough' with Win10, which I ran at 125% on my old Samsung NP930X5J, and now I'm running my LG Gram 17 at 150%.  I couldn't live with anything less than this 25% granularity; 200% would be way too big, and 100% is just too small. And I love that I can change it on the fly (sometimes my eyes are more tired, and I need a slight 'boost'!). 

 

I'm also finding that various apps are doing a great job of handling 'on the fly' scaling. In Chrome, if I find myself on a page that is just a bit too small to read comfortably, I can use either Ctrl-+ or Ctrl-(scroll wheel) and the display scales up in 25% increments, and maintains (what looks to me like) 100% sharpness. Outlook similarly supports Ctrl-(scroll wheel) but NOT Ctrl-+ ).  Excel likewise (I have some spreadsheets that are densely packed with info, which I can zoom in on when needed, then zoom back out). Even Notepad++ (and Notepad!) and the Command Prompt allow this.  The fact that sharpness is retained suggests the OS is contributing to this overall goodness.  With the trend towards higher and higher resolution screens, this is vital for me.  I basically hardly ever used a very expensive MacBook Pro I bought a few years ago due to the display being too high res coupled with the lack of usable scaling. 

 

1 hour ago, Aaron44126 said:

Scaling issues are virtually always the fault of the application, not the OS ... macOS only supports 100% and 200% scaling levels.  (All other options that they have are achieved by running applications at 200% and then using bitmap scaling to make them larger or smaller from there — the OS handles that — and it will make apps appear blurry.)  ...

I'd suggest the OS has a significant 'foundational' role to play, in terms of providing the basic tools (as evidenced by Windows being better that MacOS in this regard), but then the Apps ALSO have to do their part, taking advantage of those foundational tools. 

 

1 hour ago, Aaron44126 said:

Some Windows applications support per-monitor scaling, which I greatly appreciate as well.  If you move application windows between monitors running at different scaling levels, the application will adjust the scaling level on the fly.  ...

I don't work in 'multiple monitor' configurations that much, but when I do, this also is vital and ... works extremely well in Windows 10/11. MacOS support for multiple monitors is quite pitiful. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Aaron44126 said:

Quicken is so terrible in its own way, but every other personal finance management solution is far worse, there really is no replacement for it.

I still have to fuss a bit with some shareware apps like 'Password Safe' to get 'comfortable' font sizes, but what really, really bugs me about Quicken is - it's an expensive mainstream product with a huge user base! They've now started forcing a 'subscription model' with yearly renewals so they get even more money. Since many, many vendors have figured this out, I feel they have no excuse.  I just ran Quicken to remind myself of how bad it is; it's horribly blurry compared to everything else on my screen, and - if I switch to 'large fonts', I get bigger, but still blurry, fonts!   Have you tried any 'app specific' tweaks for Quicken to get a better experience? It's shocking just how 'ugly' (blurry) Quicken is. 

 

Edit To Add: 

For grins, I took another look at the 'per application' settings for quicken (right clicking on the app shortcut and choosing properties) and set it as follows: 'Override High DPI scaling behavior; Scaling performed by: System (Enhanced)'.  This really worked well!  I know I tried this a few years ago in Win10 and it wasn't as good. Many things could have changed since then!  But regardless - very pleased with this! 

 

 

 

 

 

[Etern4l]

7 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

  

 

Windows has very robust high-DPI support (since around Windows 10, version 1703) and it is probably better than any other desktop OS.  But you do have to sort of get how it works in order to use it effectively.  Scaling issues are virtually always the fault of the application, not the OS, often because the application is claiming a level of DPI awareness that it does not actually have, or claiming to be DPI aware but implementing it wrong.  (I use some Java applications at work that claim full DPI awareness but are not actually aware, so they just render everything very tiny on a 4K display set to 200% scaling for example.)  There are options in Windows to override the scaling behavior by-app so in my experience it is always possible to get a workable experience for any application (though you may have to resort to plain bitmap scaling which can make the applications appear blurry).  On the flip side, some apps claim to be DPI unaware but use largely standard GUI elements so no dev work is really required for them to be scaled; such apps can be safely "forced" to run with scaling enabled and they will look better for it.

 

Mainstream applications have come a long way in implementing proper scaling support, as high-DPI displays become more mainstream in both laptops and desktops.  But, I still routinely run into lesser-used business applications that have poor scaling support.

 

So, part of what I meant when I put that in my list for Linux is figuring out how to mange applications that do not scale properly, or override scaling behavior if I so choose.  Can you force applications to run with bitmap scaling if they do not implement scaling properly?  Can you run some applications at a scaling level other than what you have set at the system level?  Do applications running under Wine scale properly at all?  Etc.

 

Scaling is tricky business for a GUI developer.  It's way easier to implement scaling in a macOS application.  macOS only supports 100% and 200% scaling levels.  (All other options that they have are achieved by running applications at 200% and then using bitmap scaling to make them larger or smaller from there — the OS handles that — and it will make apps appear blurry.)  So, application developers just have to provide 1× and 2× versions of various graphical assets and the work is mostly done.  Windows supports any arbitrary scaling level (25% increments in the basic graphics settings screen, but there is an advanced screen where you can enter any scaling value that you like) so it can obviously be more of a pain for applications to properly implement scaling if they are using any custom GUI elements.

 

Some Windows applications support per-monitor scaling, which I greatly appreciate as well.  If you move application windows between monitors running at different scaling levels, the application will adjust the scaling level on the fly.  (Applications that do not support this run at the primary monitor scaling level and are bitmap-scaled up or down when running on other monitors at a different scaling level, again adding a sort of "blur" to them.)  Most Windows built-in apps, UWP apps, and web browsers support per-monitor scaling.  MS Office apps do as well (except OneNote for some reason).  I don't know if any Linux applications support per-monitor scaling.  macOS does not support this at all, it again relies on bitmap scaling to run apps at any level other than 100% or 200%.

 

(Windows has supported DPI scaling since at least Windows 98, which I have recently tested in VMware, but it was sort of a hidden away option so not many applications supported it properly until more recently.  It's only been really usable in more recent versions of Windows, since they have added support for to changing the scaling level without having to log out and start a whole new desktop session, selecting different scaling levels for different monitors in a multi-monitor configuration, overriding the scaling behavior for particular misbehaving applications, signals needed for developers to implement per-monitor DPI awareness, etc.)

 

 

There's one of my key applications that I would have to figure out how to deal with to switch to Linux.  Quicken is so terrible in its own way, but every other personal finance management solution is far worse, there really is no replacement for it.

 

 

1. When I looked into this, my understanding was that KDE isn't running on Wayland yet (or at least that is not the default configuration) which means that using different scaling ratios on different connected monitors is not possible.  (When working, I have my laptop display which is 4K/200% and I pair it with a larger external display which is 4K/125%.)  GNOME and other DEs on Wayland can offer different scaling ratios for different monitors.  (But I did not realize that GNOME has to basically use full integer scaling.....)

2. This is also normal for Windows, some apps have robust support and can switch on the fly but many just use the scaling level that was set at launch need to be restarted to switch.

 

While I don't have an easy way to test this exhaustively right now, in Gnome settings (on X11) scaling is very clearly a property of the display, not the system. Also apparently one can enable fractional scaling in Gnome too.