Future of Notebooktalk

[Linux]

Since my question in one of the offtopic threads was mostly ignored - especially by the "core" members - i will give it one more try in here.

 

How do you think will be the future outlook for NotebookTalk, after the last upgradeable chassis has reached its EOL? There will be a point in the near future, where you won't be able to fit current CPU/GPUs into your beloved non-BGA cases. This community isn't - and never will be tbh - that large in the slightest as NBR and therefore lacks depth. Not criticism, just stating facts.

 

Where do you see this community in 5 years? All state-of-the-art laptops will be proprietary by then. What will be we talking about then, if nothing can be upgraded anymore? The last practical Windows (10) won't get security patches anymore?

I already have switched completely to Linux and my next gaming rig will be from a hardware vendor, which specializes in Linux. I don't have any issues with BGA, my machine is already from 2016 and is still running great.

 

Linux is getting more traction in here, but this doesn't solve the non-upgradable hardware issue, which always has been the main driver for NBR and also this community.

[1610ftw]

First off I am pretty sure there is a lot of traffic in the benchmark thread from @Mr. Fox but I will concede that this is not really a laptop thread but a very cool one where I have to watch myself as one can take half a day to catch up on everything in it 😄

 

But there also seems to be about equal amounts of traffic between the Alienware, Dell and Clevo section so it is not just socketed laptops any more.

 

As for laptop and the future of LGA having an impact on the forum I am not that sure we really need new LGA systems in order for the forum to survive, it is not that bad. 

 

Imo a general problem apart from the LGA / BGA question is that today all laptops are more or less lame compared to what we used to have as they lack ambition and excitement and even an exciting BGA laptop manufacturer with a good TB5 implementation and possibly watercooling could turn the tide for some people who would like to be able to have a mobile high performance option.

 

Then there is the operating system section that I think could also expand more if more people move to Linux so W10 will not be the end of it all.

 

So lots of areas of the forum that do not just depend on socketed so I am not worried that this will have much of an impact.

 

Having a good community and people who prefer this part of the internet is probably the most important part anyway and in time more depth in different areas will come if people shift interest.

[Mr. Fox]

5 hours ago, Linux said:

Since my question in one of the offtopic threads was mostly ignored - especially by the "core" members - i will give it one more try in here.

 

How do you think will be the future outlook for NotebookTalk, after the last upgradeable chassis has reached its EOL? There will be a point in the near future, where you won't be able to fit current CPU/GPUs into your beloved non-BGA cases. This community isn't - and never will be tbh - that large in the slightest as NBR and therefore lacks depth. Not criticism, just stating facts.

 

Where do you see this community in 5 years? All state-of-the-art laptops will be proprietary by then. What will be we talking about then, if nothing can be upgraded anymore? The last practical Windows (10) won't get security patches anymore?

I already have switched completely to Linux and my next gaming rig will be from a hardware vendor, which specializes in Linux. I don't have any issues with BGA, my machine is already from 2016 and is still running great.

 

Linux is getting more traction in here, but this doesn't solve the non-upgradable hardware issue, which always has been the main driver for NBR and also this community.

Sorry, I can only speak for myself but I was not ignoring any posts. I didn't see it. There are only about 3 threads that I visit unless I get tagged and respond like I did when @1610ftw mentioned me here. It's not that I don't care about the people posting in the other threads as much as the fact that I don't care about the subject matter.

 

The PC technology landscape has changed dramatically since around 2013-2014 and the downhill slide began around 2011-2012. I have no interest in mobile computing. BGA and the focus on thin and light ruined that for me. I only accept change when I agree with it. If I do not agree with something, then I reject it and withdraw my support. I am here because there is a small group of forum friends that have lasted through the years and we remain friends because they share some of my PC passions.

 

I think the direction things are headed in PC technology is truly disgusting, repulsive and loathsome. Because I reject change that I do not agree with and do not embrace compromise, I see my interest in PC technology fading rapidly. My primary interest is hardware and overclocking. Hardware configurations are largely fixed and disposable now. Overclocking has become a joke because idiots that don't understand or appreciate it are running the show. And, I'm pretty much an all or nothing type of person. (Yes, I am stating the obvious for anyone that knows me.)  I like gaming, but don't love it and do not invest a lot of time or energy into it. My interest in gaming has been closely tied to my passion for hardware and overclocking, so there is no place for console or mobile gaming in my world.

 

Linux affords the autonomy that the Redmond Mafia seems hell bent on denying to the users of their modern digital filth. I love Linux, warts and all, (and it has plenty of them,) but not enough to use chintzy crap hardware as the platform for running it. If I am going to use disposable garbage hardware, it will be something extra cheap like a Raspberry Pi. It is hard for me to get excited about something like that, but I am more likely to get excited about spending $200 on disposable crap than I would be $2000 on disposable crap.

 

I like that I can still find dinosaurs like myself and @Papusan here in this community.

[Linux]

@Mr. FoxThank you for your elaborate answer, really appreciated. Despite all the negativity. 👍

 

It doesn't really surprise me, since i know most you already from NBR - my old account there is from around 2015 - and therefore i am aware of the stance regarding soldered and BGA hardware in general.

 

I don't do heavy gaming, so my needs in upgrading are very low and i am pretty sure, that my current laptop will be fine performancewise for at least another 3-4 years. Especially with Linux.

 

To be honest, despite that i don't really ticking any boxes for this community - maybe only that i own a laptop - i know and appreciate the experience many of the members are bringing along. In common PC hardware communities it is difficult to find experts for all things related to laptops. f.e. BIOS mods are deemed as rocket science there.

 

Even that i cannot contribute much, that is the reason i followed over from NBR and stayed. The OS switch was the only thing i changed on my laptop since joining here.

[Mr. Fox]

18 hours ago, Linux said:

@Mr. FoxThank you for your elaborate answer, really appreciated. Despite all the negativity. 👍

 

It doesn't really surprise me, since i know most you already from NBR - my old account there is from around 2015 - and therefore i am aware of the stance regarding soldered and BGA hardware in general.

 

I don't do heavy gaming, so my needs in upgrading are very low and i am pretty sure, that my current laptop will be fine performancewise for at least another 3-4 years. Especially with Linux.

 

To be honest, despite that i don't really ticking any boxes for this community - maybe only that i own a laptop - i know and appreciate the experience many of the members are bringing along. In common PC hardware communities it is difficult to find experts for all things related to laptops. f.e. BIOS mods are deemed as rocket science there.

 

Even that i cannot contribute much, that is the reason i followed over from NBR and stayed. The OS switch was the only thing i changed on my laptop since joining here.

For my mobile computing needs, which are very limited, I have the Dell Precision 7720 in my signature. Although gaming is not something that I place I high priority on, it can play games pretty well, actually. It has no problem with modern AAA titles with the Quadro P5000 16GB MXM GPU as long as I don't get too crazy on the settings. It is a solid machine. Built like a brick house. Everything except the CPU is replaceable. I just ordered a Precision 7720 for one of my teenage granddaughters a couple of weeks ago and another one for my wife earlier today. I didn't notice the one I ordered for my wife has a 4K screen, so I may have to trade her for mine if she hates that. They have identical specs otherwise. I seldom turn mine on. Only when I don't have access to one of my desktops. Can't beat if for less than $600. Way better than the plastic crap for sale at 3 to 5 times the cost.

[win32asmguy]

15 hours ago, Linux said:

Linux is getting more traction in here, but this doesn't solve the non-upgradable hardware issue, which always has been the main driver for NBR and also this community.

 

Sadly the community doesn't put much emphasis on the other part of the problem, poor quality locked down firmware. I want to explore that more and I have a newer system that despite being BGA, has an open source BIOS and EC which I can freely modify. It really makes a system be very close to how many would run a desktop - without proprietary control software. It isn't exactly a very cost effective system as I believe Clevo charges over $500 more to get an equivalent motherboard without Intel Boot Guard, which requires a signed bios using their keys in order to boot up. There is also the cost of porting Coreboot to new hardware which is a very hard sell to anyone who expects open source firmware to cost the same as proprietary firmware.

[1610ftw]

10 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

For my mobile computing needs, which are very limited, I have the Dell Precision 7720 in my signature. Although gaming is not something that I place I high priority on, it can play games pretty well, actually. It has no problem with modern AAA titles with the Quadro P5000 16GB MXM GPU as long as I don't get too crazy on the settings. It is a solid machine. Built like a brick house. Everything except the CPU is replaceable. I just ordered a Precision 7720 for one of my teenage granddaughters a couple of weeks ago and anotheer one for my wife earlier today. I didn't notice the one I ordered for my wife has a 4K screen, so I may have to trade her for mine if she hates that. They have identical specs otherwise. I seldom turn mine on. Only when I don't have access to one of my desktops. Can't beat if for less than $600. Way better than the plastic crap for sale at 3 to 5 times the cost.

 

The Dell Precision 7720 is an excellent pick as it is the last Precision model with MXM GPUs. It is deplorable that they went from supporting MXM to their own standard that does not even have compatibility in their own machines from one generation to another.

 

About that 4K screen: Hopefully the drivers allow for integer scaling as then it can be made to look like a 1080p screen. My MSI WT75 with the P4200 does not seem to have that option but maybe it could be available in the 7720.

 

 

[meowpressreturn]

I was fool enough to get the 4K screen with my 7540 and ... I really don't like it. Just for starters Dell had to replace the screen once already because Dell Premier Color refused to consider it supported and no amount of re-installing drivers would fix that, and you need to use DPC to make the colours reasonable - without that its in 'vibrant' mode, so every shade of colour is maxed out and it makes your eyes bleed.

 

Even with DPC to set a better profile I can never really get it to feel 'right' and it somehow manages to accomplish the feat of being both too bright and too dim at the same time.

 

The 4K screen also meant I had issues updating the 7540 BIOS - it was thanks to posts on here that I found out you needed to use an external keyboard and monitor via USB-C and close the lid to be able to update it! Stuff like this is what makes this forum so valuable to me. Dell had no clue about this. 

 

Also, old Winamp and 4K screens don't play well together, you literally need a magnifying glass. Had to use WACUP on that machine instead. 

 

HWInfo lists it as AU Optronics [Unknown Model: AUO41EB].

 

Meanwhile the 1080p screen on my Precision 3551 is perfection out of the box, no tweaking or DPC required. Wonderful display (AU Optronics [Unknown Model: AUO26ED]). Can't say that for much else about the 3551 though. It does have some good points but overall its a bit of a lemon. One of these days I mean to make a post about it.

 

I got it because it met my #1 criteria for laptops, something no newer models do: specifically, it has touchpad buttons. And when the touchpad is actually in a good mood and behaving properly its a very nice touchpad. I don't like mice, and the modern buttonless touchpads are unusable garbage. I've *tried* to get used themwith various work issued machines, but no joy. 

[TreeTopsRanch]

"Where do you see this community in 5 years?"  Well I sure hope it's still around in 5 years.  But, I suspect it will not. Reason, the youngsters (Kids) are not into computers like we are.  They all use phones and trying to use this site on a phone is a really big chore.

I know they may need some computer knowledge for work but at home they use a phone. I am seeing this more and more as I visit friends.  The older adults may still have a computer but the kids don't. You can watch them, they are glued to the phone all day. Mostly texting. None of them run websites like we did.

 

 

[Sandy Bridge]

I'm not as much of a pessimist about the potential for non-modifiable hardware as some.  That Framework has been shipping upgradeable laptops for multiple generations indicates there is demand, and you can still find non-fruit-branded laptops with some upgradeable parts.  I'm not saying full PGA and what-we-all-hoped-MXM-would-be-even-if-it-never-really-was.  But things like replacement keyboards, eGPUs, repairing screens, chassis mods... those are still niche, but I don't see them as any more niche than they were, and questions like, "which SSD/RAM should I put in my laptop?" and "should I buy Laptop A or Laptop B?" remain as relevant as ever.

 

Rather, I see the most likely actual cause of the perceived decrease in the size of the community (including non-NBT sites) as due to the commodification of hardware and the fact that you don't need to upgrade even half as often as you used to in order to have highly usable hardware.  Things were exciting in the 90s and 2000s, and moved fast, but there was a reason that Weird Al joked about hardware being obsolete before you opened the box - two-year-old hardware was getting long in the tooth, four-year-old hardware was ancient, and reliability was not necessarily all that great.  Now I can surf the web and write code and listen to Spotify on my 12-year-old desktop and it's still quite usable, and probably could at least to some extent even if I'd never upgraded its original 8 GB of RAM or 80 GB SSD.  And it didn't even have a top-of-the-line CPU.

 

So when you have hardware that can last a decade and still be usable, other than for gaming, the interest in fixing things up and tweaking them for more performance is naturally going to be lower.  It's like how I really don't need to pay much attention to my 12-year-old Honda, it just drives and drives quite reliably, whereas if I had a 12-year-old Chevy in the '60s, I'd have to know quite a bit to keep it in shape for the distances I drive my Honda, and if I had a 12-year-old Model T in 1930, I'd really have to know how everything worked.  We might not be quite to 2010 Honda levels in computer technology, but a lot of us yearn for the '50s Chevy days when we're probably closer to '80s or '90s Camrys in terms of reliability and longevity.

 

As for NotebookTalk itself?  I wasn't really at NBR much the last few years, so I can't say how much its traffic had declined by the end, but it does feel like a lot of the crowd dispersed, with only a fraction winding up here.  We've only got 639 threads in "Notebook Manufacturers", for instance, which isn't bad but is probably a month or so of new threads at NBR, over the course of more than two years.  That said, forums can live on with low but consistent levels of activity for many years, even over a decade, if the administrator remains interested, and if, when they aren't, someone takes up the mantle.  I wouldn't be surprised if that is what happens.

 

Given the current trajectory, I don't foresee particular growth, though.  There will likely be some visitors who chance upon the site, see it is somewhat active, and join, but we don't have the types of articles that NBR had, or that NotebookCheck currently has, that can draw in new visitors, nor do we have the traffic such that we'd likely to be in the top 10 results for any particular laptop model search, as was the case for NBR in its heydey.  To an extent it is what it is - it would be a Herculean effort to try to change that given that there already are established players for both laptop reviews and sites that discuss everything under the sun.  Maybe the planets align and a positive self-reinforcing cycle begins, but in lieu of that, I don't see it as a bad outcome that this is a site that I can come back to every few weeks or couple of months and have interesting discussions, and if I do have a need to post a technical thread about my laptop, I know where to do it.