Janktop IV Sneak Peek (open source MINI ITX Laptop)

[-batab-]

10 hours ago, StripeySnake said:

If you're interested in a smaller version, I have been considering designing a 15 inch version based off of a 40mm internal thickness rather than 50mm, but this design would have major constraints. For cable manageing and thickness reasons, you would have to use a 1u waterblock and pump, which means the watercooling loop would likely be a LOT of money. Additionally, the GPU would also have to be part of the cooling loop, meaning part threshold would be kind of low. I might work on it some day, but i'll be finishing this one right now.

 

Yeah, that's fair. But I was wondering of something even more extreme. Like literally a bulky laptop at 30 mm thickness or similar.

 

I've never really started studying any possible layout so I have no clue if it's something feasible or not but removing display, keyboard, touchpad and battery should already help quite a bit when comparing to an actual laptop.

 

Basically pick a bulky laptop size and weight and make it a desktop. What could we ever fit in the best scenario?

[StripeySnake]

Standard MINI-ITX has a hard cap at around 40mm, and I'm not willing to follow the trend of ditching major important features just for the sake of thinness. It should also be said that my current prototype barely has enough room for all of it's components, and a 15 inch 40mm version would definitely be much, much worse in that regard. Also frankly, removing the keyboard and screen would COMPLETELY defeat the purpose of this whole concept. If you need to carry a keyboard and screen with it, it's not actually portable. period.

[FredSRichardson]

4 hours ago, StripeySnake said:

Standard MINI-ITX has a hard cap at around 40mm, and I'm not willing to follow the trend of ditching major important features just for the sake of thinness. It should also be said that my current prototype barely has enough room for all of it's components, and a 15 inch 40mm version would definitely be much, much worse in that regard. Also frankly, removing the keyboard and screen would COMPLETELY defeat the purpose of this whole concept. If you need to carry a keyboard and screen with it, it's not actually portable. period.

 

I think there are really three baselines to compare the Janktop effort to when you're considering mobile gaming options:

 

1. Expensive gaming laptop.  I mean these can be nice, but they can also be really disappointing if you don't have clear eyes on what your getting for the money and if your wallet isn't big.  So the main problem I have with buying say a Razor with a "3080" in it, is that it is really a potentially hot laptop with desktop 3060 performance at 2-3 times the price and like almost all laptops the whole thing is not user serviceable.  Having said that, these have really nice screens and keyboards and look beautiful, so if really depends on ones budget (which can mean annual budget BTW).

 

2. Commercial "console" SFF: there are thin SFFPC enclosures available like the Sliger CL520 (and several others - some like the s4mini are not currently available as newer reversions are due to come out).  They don't get much thinner than say 2.7".  The s4mini can't accommodate much more than a 3060, but there is a YouTube video of someone putting a 3080 into the Sliber CL520.  CPU cooling in that case is an issue tough.  With this option you have to figure out what you're going to do for a keyboard and monitor - portable versions of those do exist but they add to the amount you have to travel with - I think maybe the monitor and keyboard options are what makes the conventional console SFF path to travel gaming a bit tricky to navigate.

 

3. Discrete GPU.  I haven't explored this very much, but you can also buy a more affordable gaming laptop and carry around a discrete GPU in it's own box.  Potentially this box could go in your checked luggage - I think...  The discrete GPU plugs into the laptop's USB-C port.  I have no idea how well this works, and I have been thinking about exploring it just to cover all the bases.

[StripeySnake]

It's update Tiiiime!
Today I ripped the Janktop apart, removed the PSU, GPU, and cooling loop and made some big changes. Firstly, I soldered 3 of the 6 fans in parallel, and they appear to be still working properly. I'll do the other 3 then next time I do a big teardown. Next, I upgraded to a 500w PSU with much thinner and nicer cables, as well as no external on off switch. Cable managing is getting a lot more possible, although still difficult of course. Finally, I upgraded the GPU from the old 1060 3gb to a 5700 xt! The difference is night and day. Not only is it a lot more powerful, but damn the drivers work so much better. I was having constant issues with NVIDIA control panel before, as well as display issues caused by my bad HDMI cable. With the amd card, the drivers have run flawlessly, I've actually been able to calibrate my display, and it even somehow found a way to compensate for my failing HDMI cable, as the obnoxious green dots that kept appearing on screen now go away if i just tweak a couple of settings in the radeon software. truly amazing. I also put a couple of bits of thick tape over key bend points in the CPU loop, to prevent them from getting kinked as badly, which should be good for durability and water flow. Someday I may have to go hardline so that I don't have to deal with kinks at all. 

P.S. I calculated the volume of the Janktop case - the display, and it comes in at around 9.1 L, making it small, but a bit larger than some of the smallest ITX cases out there, which is pretty good considering the cooling and unusual shape.)

 

 

[FredSRichardson]

@StripeySnake That's some amazing progress!  I forgot that you put liquid cooling in there - that is pretty awesome (and I think very courageous) for a travel build.  I've been shying away from the idea of liquid cooling for a travel system.

[jaybee83]

7 hours ago, StripeySnake said:

It's update Tiiiime!
Today I ripped the Janktop apart, removed the PSU, GPU, and cooling loop and made some big changes. Firstly, I soldered 3 of the 6 fans in parallel, and they appear to be still working properly. I'll do the other 3 then next time I do a big teardown. Next, I upgraded to a 500w PSU with much thinner and nicer cables, as well as no external on off switch. Cable managing is getting a lot more possible, although still difficult of course. Finally, I upgraded the GPU from the old 1060 3gb to a 5700 xt! The difference is night and day. Not only is it a lot more powerful, but damn the drivers work so much better. I was having constant issues with NVIDIA control panel before, as well as display issues caused by my bad HDMI cable. With the amd card, the drivers have run flawlessly, I've actually been able to calibrate my display, and it even somehow found a way to compensate for my failing HDMI cable, as the obnoxious green dots that kept appearing on screen now go away if i just tweak a couple of settings in the radeon software. truly amazing. I also put a couple of bits of thick tape over key bend points in the CPU loop, to prevent them from getting kinked as badly, which should be good for durability and water flow. Someday I may have to go hardline so that I don't have to deal with kinks at all. 

P.S. I calculated the volume of the Janktop case - the display, and it comes in at around 9.1 L, making it small, but a bit larger than some of the smallest ITX cases out there, which is pretty good considering the cooling and unusual shape.)

 

 

u dont hear that every day @amd drivers muuuch better than nvidia LOL 😄

[Eban]

On 5/20/2022 at 9:20 AM, StripeySnake said:

It's update Tiiiime!
Today I ripped the Janktop apart, removed the PSU, GPU, and cooling loop and made some big changes. Firstly, I soldered 3 of the 6 fans in parallel, and they appear to be still working properly. I'll do the other 3 then next time I do a big teardown. Next, I upgraded to a 500w PSU with much thinner and nicer cables, as well as no external on off switch. Cable managing is getting a lot more possible, although still difficult of course. Finally, I upgraded the GPU from the old 1060 3gb to a 5700 xt! The difference is night and day. Not only is it a lot more powerful, but damn the drivers work so much better. I was having constant issues with NVIDIA control panel before, as well as display issues caused by my bad HDMI cable. With the amd card, the drivers have run flawlessly, I've actually been able to calibrate my display, and it even somehow found a way to compensate for my failing HDMI cable, as the obnoxious green dots that kept appearing on screen now go away if i just tweak a couple of settings in the radeon software. truly amazing. I also put a couple of bits of thick tape over key bend points in the CPU loop, to prevent them from getting kinked as badly, which should be good for durability and water flow. Someday I may have to go hardline so that I don't have to deal with kinks at all. 
P.S. I calculated the volume of the Janktop case - the display, and it comes in at around 9.1 L, making it small, but a bit larger than some of the smallest ITX cases out there, which is pretty good considering the cooling and unusual shape.)

 

 

 

 

Your Janktop is looking truly awesome!!

Im impressed as hell and still would like this as my next DTR.

With the 9.1L size I would probably eventually go hardline (for the water cooling)  if I could find a good routing fitment. That would be a "see how it goes".

In the meantime I would just like to get my hands on a case and start building 

[StripeySnake]

If you're willing to wait a month or two, I'm getting pretty close to being able to work out copyright/patent, and drop all the CAD files. The only reason I'm not doing it now is because the parts still need some fine tuning, and adjustments I haven't had the chance to make yet. Once I'm confident it will all go together smoothly, I'll drop the files and a tutorial, and you can put one together yourself if you want. So long as you can get your hands on the printed parts, the build should actually be fairly easy, just a simple matter of screwing everything into place, and a LOT of cable management.

[Eban]

Nothing but thin and lite castrated garbage from big name brands.

 

I'm still going Janktop for my next DTR 

[StripeySnake]

I'm looking at releasing the Janktop 4.0 Design fairly soon, then designing a 4.5 by next year that uses a fully custom display assembly rather than m17x display. I'm just starting summer, so I'm finally getting time to continue the project again.

[StripeySnake]

Small update: after a decent chunk of work, I've made several major modifications to the design. Firstly, that large slit under the hinge mounts is now gone, as it does nothing to make the chassis work, and wrecks the structural integrity of the hinges. That should kill the already negligible hinge flex pretty much completely. Additionally, rather than hand drilling, all of the screw holes are now included in the palmrest STL, which should make the case fit together much better, and cut several hours off of build time. Plus, much less risk of human error. I've also enlarged and streamlined the hinge holes into the chassis, in order to make room for easier management of the display, antennae, and potentially RGB cables. I've also made small improvements to tolerances around the chassis for easier assembly. 
Known issues I still have left to resolve include: Moving the GPU slot a few mm out and down to properly accommodate larger cards with backplates. Implementing the bolting system I used to connect several two segment parts to every single gap between the 3d printed pieces, which should have a massive impact on strength. Redesigning the keyboard slot to fit the m17x r5 ranger keyboard with much less difficulty. There are also basic strength adjustments to be made, and finally, I have some sort of modular cable management system to help with the tight chassis. 

That's where I am now, progress is being made! 🙂

[K4sum1]

This is pretty cool, but I'm not sure if I like some of the ideas. Having an integrated keyboard is cool and all, but I think that space could be better used to replace those small noisy fans with some good sized 120mm fans and radiators, while also making the case a bit shorter. I also think it might be better to get one of those tiny power supplies that get power from a power brick instead of a server PSU.

[Eban]

@StripeySnake @K4sum1

I like the power brick idea. A little more room to play.

Would that be possible with atx power conectors?

 

something like this?

then find the biggest baddest psu  brick(s) available

 

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32979680116.html

[K4sum1]

3 hours ago, Eban said:

@StripeySnake @K4sum1

I like the power brick idea. A little more room to play.

Would that be possible with atx power conectors?

 

something like this?

then find the biggest baddest psu  brick(s) available

 

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32979680116.html

Not that easy, you need to get a PSU that takes the 12v (Forgot that laptops actually take 19v in) in and converts it to all the other voltages. The only one that comes to mind is the picopsu, but I know there was more and they could deliver more power. It's been years since I've looked at any of this.

[Eban]

A laptop psu/brick is around 19v DC output. roughly

The motherboard changes that to 12v, 5v and 3v (or there abouts).  buck converters?

 

What is the output on a desktop psu? roughly. I do not have a desktop to even look at measuring the output voltage

[StripeySnake]

With respect, I'm not going to try either of those things. You all are free to when I release the files. My reasoning is that firstly, the cooling system already seems to be quite powerful, I have yet to test it with proper not heavily kinked tubing, and yet with like 3 pinches in the loop it was able to hold off 110 watts of cpu power at under 70 c indefinitely, without the cpu fans being loud at all. Also you are completely wrong about the fans. The small 40mm fans are made by noctua, and while not completely quiet, the make a very low, quiet and not annoying sound that's really not all that loud. Even at full tilt they are quieter than some gaming laptops I've worked with.
as for the second Idea, I did actually consider using Pico PSUs when I designed the build but there are a ton of problems with that idea. Firstly, there aren't really high enough power pico psus, so it would likely need to use several at once. on top of that, an external power brick is more size and weight to carry anyway, and there's no benefit to having more of the size on the outside when you have to bring both parts everywhere as well. On top of that, Flex atx is a niche but standard form factor, that should still be reliably manufactured in some capacity for a long time. I can't say the same about Pico PSUs, which are very uncommon, as well as quite janky, and frankly I have a lot less confidence in their continued function. Ultimately, the flex psu fits very neatly into the case, and is in just the right place for cables. I'd have to replace it with two flex psus, which might take up less space but are going to be much harder to work with. On top of that, replacing them in the future could be difficult, and having to lug several external AC adapters would suck. Finally, having the ability to plug in with a standard 3 pin wall cable is really nice, because you can find one basically anywhere.

[Rengsey R. H. Jr.]

This is a neat project. I have an interest in this kind of project a long time ago. I think I should start picking it back up. 🙂

[StripeySnake]

Just a small update, but I've actually been working on the prototype, because while the final design is important, I am going to be using to for college, and it needs to be reliable for the first year till I have the time to print the final chassis. Anyway, I got a rough final weight for my prototype, keep in mind this is with a fancy x570 board with big vrm heatsinks, full custom watercooling, and a fairly large 2 fan gpu. It weighs 18 pounds! Certainly not light, but to be honest I was expecting the thing to be much, much heavier with how much is packed into it. That's also with a steel bottom cover, despite the fact the final design will use aluminum. I'd estimate with a lighter motherboard, gpu and aluminum bottom cover, you actually might be able to bring the entire machine below 15 pounds. Still quite heavy, but 2-5 pounds above the weight of an m18x is actually not that bad for a full on watercooled desktop.

[Eban]

What is that in Kilograms? Just kidding (No I'm not, it's 8.1kg but I had to look it up ) 

 

Yeah on the weighty side, make your legs go numb if it is used as a laptop 

Still my first choice for DTR...upgradable, compartmentalized components, desktop performance.

 

I'm still in.

[Ishayin]

On 5/18/2022 at 5:44 PM, FredSRichardson said:

3. Discrete GPU.  I haven't explored this very much, but you can also buy a more affordable gaming laptop and carry around a discrete GPU in it's own box.  Potentially this box could go in your checked luggage - I think...  The discrete GPU plugs into the laptop's USB-C port.  I have no idea how well this works, and I have been thinking about exploring it just to cover all the bases.

 

I've also been thinking that an eGPU could be a nice option for me in the future. I mean I rarely game anymore, and even less when travelling, so it would be nice to have the dedicated GPU in a separate box I can just leave behind for lighter transport. And also allows for better cooling for both GPU and CPU.

 

I guess in most cases you also need a separate monitor to go with it, or are there eGPU solutions that allow for say a mux switch connection back into the laptops own built-in display?

[FredSRichardson]

22 hours ago, Ishatix said:

I guess in most cases you also need a separate monitor to go with it, or are there eGPU solutions that allow for say a mux switch connection back into the laptops own built-in display?

 

My understanding is that a laptop with an eGPU does not need another monitor.  I also think the real limitation here ends up being the laptops internal bus throughput (when compared to a desktop with the same GPU).  I imagine performance varies quite a lot with this approach depending on the laptop and GPU type...

 

I'd definitely support a future in which we can buy really nice "lapdocks" with whatever level of keyboard and monitor we want.  Then plug that into say a monster desktop at home, a cell phone on the road or a portable desktop while on travel all via usb-C.  I'm not sure that future will ever happen though...

[jaybee83]

2 hours ago, FredSRichardson said:

 

My understanding is that a laptop with an eGPU does not need another monitor.  I also think the real limitation here ends up being the laptops internal bus throughput (when compared to a desktop with the same GPU).  I imagine performance varies quite a lot with this approach depending on the laptop and GPU type...

 

I'd definitely support a future in which we can buy really nice "lapdocks" with whatever level of keyboard and monitor we want.  Then plug that into say a monster desktop at home, a cell phone on the road or a portable desktop while on travel all via usb-C.  I'm not sure that future will ever happen though...

yep, no need for an additional monitor and yep again, main limitation for egpu performance is bus bandwith and latency, add to that the sometimes anemic nature of the mobile cpu in question, which cannot keep up with the monster desktop cards...

[StripeySnake]

Hey fellow enthusiasts!

I know I've been silent for a while, but progress on the chassis design is back underway, and I expect to be able to alpha release my files by Friday after next, the 12th. 
Design elements I am currently working on include:
- First and foremost, mechanical part compatibility. This is the biggest hurdle, and will likely not be completely fixed by alpha. However, a couple of hours and a file were enough to correct my mistakes on the prototype, and Alpha should be a considerably smoother fit. 

- Next up, Chassis integrity. The prototype is fairly sturdy, but I was unsatisfied by the amount of flex on the hinges, as well as the wobbliness seen between some side panels when the bottom cover is installed. I've made changes to greatly reinforce the hinges, as well as made it so that every single adjacent 3D printed piece interlocks together with M3 screws and nuts. 

 

- Thirdly, Cable Management. This will never be easy in such a small chassis, but I have begun adding features such as zip tie channels in the printed parts to allow for easier securing of excess cabling. 

- Last, but not least, Ease of use. I've begun labelling each segment of the chassis with text engraved .2mm into the plastic, as to be readable on the print, but not requiring of support material to fabricate. Additionally, I've added a fill port opening into the right side of the Radiator Bays, that will allow the user to flip the machine on it's side and have direct access to the Liquid cooling loop without having to disassemble the machine at all. This will come in extremely handy, as the loop will require a top off every once in a while. 

 

I will not be able to test print the alpha design as I lack printer access right now, but I should have reliable access again this coming school year, and will likely completely replace the prototype chassis through ought the first semester or two.

 

 

[StripeySnake]

Just letting everyone know, there is a new thread in Custom Builds, and the STL files are now accessible via GitHub.