Thinkpad P16 Gen 1

[ATAN]

Which is louder doing endless cbr23 runs? The P16 or the 7770? @Aaron44126

The 7770s anemic cooler aside, and understanding I wont be able to cap the P16's power usage and whatnot regardless of the i9 12950hx being "unlocked". Even though I would really just like to limit it to PL1/2 81/90w on it and never look back.

Have a 7770 12950hx rn (75w capped due to cooling, would like it faster for the temp (90c+) and cooler for the performance(14k+ w/0 ecores cbr23 lol).

 

P16 is seemingly the only other option with a ssd door with better cooling. Will be docked a large portion of the time, but I have found myself using the 7770 out around the house, but its not exactly lap friendly at any given time when actually doing something.

[Aaron44126]

4 hours ago, ATAN said:

Which is louder doing endless cbr23 runs? The P16 or the 7770? @Aaron44126

 

I dunno?  I do not have any Lenovo systems to mess with.  My requirements are 17" + four NVMe SSD slots ... There are very few options for this generation.

[1610ftw]

On 9/24/2022 at 7:22 PM, Conan11 said:

After making a test of copying 200 GB of data from one partition to another both SSDs (setup in RAID1) go above 70°C. I wonder how bad sign is it?

Perhaps I should I add I also stressed the CPU during the test with CPU-Z, so more tests are needed, I was just trying to exercise various scenarios.

Edit: it isn't much different when the CPU is not stressed. The SSDs eventually throttle (a lot!), but only when they are quite above 70°C, which is the top temperature allowed in the specs. Also throttling alone doesn't seem to be enough to decrease the temperature.

 

I wonder how it may affect more realistic use scenarios. In particular, if one SSD dies, and I replace it, would the other one just overheat and die during rebuilding the RAID1 array?...

 

How fast is the transfer?

I think that with some of these newer drives transfer speed is so extremely high that they get hot much faster than they used to.

 

These days I always try to increase fans for longer transfers to add cooling to the SSDs but I understand that many laptops do not allow it.

 

On the Dell 7760 I can get sustained transfers in the 300 to 400 GB region that would not see the SSD go over 60°C and that is without ramping up the fans but my Dell is sitting on a 200 mm Noctua fan which helps. Those are about 700 to 1000 MB/s and write only while on newer drives and with internal transfers you may be looking at much higher transfer speeds and you are at the same time reading and writing on the same drive which is a worst case scenario.

 

May I ask why you are using RAID1? Seems like it is pretty limiting especially when you only have the capacity for two drives?

[saturnotaku]

5 hours ago, 1610ftw said:

 

May I ask why you are using RAID1? Seems like it is pretty limiting especially when you only have the capacity for two drives?

 

Yeah, this doesn't make a ton of sense to me. I would just use a NAS and set up a tunnel to access the files remotely if need be.

[Aaron44126]

On 9/24/2022 at 1:22 PM, Conan11 said:

I wonder how it may affect more realistic use scenarios. In particular, if one SSD dies, and I replace it, would the other one just overheat and die during rebuilding the RAID1 array?...

 

5 hours ago, 1610ftw said:

May I ask why you are using RAID1? Seems like it is pretty limiting especially when you only have the capacity for two drives?

 

Just throwing in my two cents (a bit late)...

"RAID is not a backup"

Even with two drives mirrored, you should have your data stored elsewhere in the case of failure.  You can still have accidental file deletion, file system corruption, error during RAID rebuild (as you mention), laptop damaged/stolen, etc. and in each case you will be toast even if RAID1 was implemented.

 

If you have a good backup strategy then I would also question whether RAID1 in the laptop is even needed.  You could have more storage capacity if you put the drives in RAID0 or just used them separately.

[1610ftw]

3 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

 

 

Just throwing in my two cents (a bit late)...

"RAID is not a backup"

Even with two drives mirrored, you should have your data stored elsewhere in the case of failure.  You can still have accidental file deletion, file system corruption, error during RAID rebuild (as you mention), laptop damaged/stolen, etc. and in each case you will be toast even if RAID1 was implemented.

 

If you have a good backup strategy then I would also question whether RAID1 in the laptop is even needed.  You could have more storage capacity if you put the drives in RAID0 or just used them separately.

 

I would also prefer separate SSDs without any RAID configuration. In a laptop a RAID configuration is too limiting imo except for very special cases.

 

 

[Conan11]

On 10/27/2022 at 2:56 AM, 1610ftw said:

How fast is the transfer?

 

CrystalDiskMark shows:

 

            read (GB/s)   write (GB/s)
Seq1M Q8T1: 12.1          6.4  I wonder if the twice faster read comes from RAID1?
Seq1M Q1T1:  4.1          4.7  
Rnd4k Q32T1: 0.56         0.36 
Rnd4k Q1T1:  0.061        0.12 

 

Not sure how to interpret these numbers, but indeed I recall seeing several GB/s when copying large files, much less with many small files. Of course, only until the thermal throttling hits, which happened sometime during the 200 GB copy test. I eventually added thermal pads under the SSDs, but I'm not sure if it makes any sense. That would require some careful testing.

 

On 10/27/2022 at 2:56 AM, 1610ftw said:

May I ask why you are using RAID1? Seems like it is pretty limiting especially when you only have the capacity for two drives?

 

With a pair of 4 TB drives, it isn't so bad. At least for me, at this time. The reason for RAID1 is that if a drive fails, my laptop doesn't stop to work. Yes I'm well aware it doesn't replace backup, neither rebuilding the array is guaranteed... but at least when a failure happens I can deal with it when I have time for it, on my conditions.

 

But there are some other downsides to RAID1, besides loss of capacity, so maybe I'll change my mind.

[1610ftw]

3 hours ago, Conan11 said:

 

CrystalDiskMark shows:

 

            read (GB/s)   write (GB/s)
Seq1M Q8T1: 12.1          6.4  I wonder if the twice faster read comes from RAID1?
Seq1M Q1T1:  4.1          4.7  
Rnd4k Q32T1: 0.56         0.36 
Rnd4k Q1T1:  0.061        0.12 

 

Not sure how to interpret these numbers, but indeed I recall seeing several GB/s when copying large files, much less with many small files. Of course, only until the thermal throttling hits, which happened sometime during the 200 GB copy test. I eventually added thermal pads under the SSDs, but I'm not sure if it makes any sense. That would require some careful testing.

 

 

With a pair of 4 TB drives, it isn't so bad. At least for me, at this time. The reason for RAID1 is that if a drive fails, my laptop doesn't stop to work. Yes I'm well aware it doesn't replace backup, neither rebuilding the array is guaranteed... but at least when a failure happens I can deal with it when I have time for it, on my conditions.

 

But there are some other downsides to RAID1, besides loss of capacity, so maybe I'll change my mind.

 

That is blazing fast and about 12 times as fast as my transfers get which are mostly via network.

 

With an MSI laptop I would suggest to run cooler boost when transferring files at that speed and lacking that you will need to have a look at other ways of cooling. At those speeds I am not surprised you are seeing overheating at all.

 

Two 4TB drives is indeed massive but you may also just pack in an additional SSD when on the go, something that fits your system should be 500GB tops.

You can then back up your system on the second SSD and the likelihood of both your system and your other SSD failing at the same time is not higher than before but you will have a lot more space if you just take that small drive with you where you can recover your system partition, too.

[DarginMahkum]

Interesting, not much is happening also here. Anyway, anyone using P16 with Linux and eGPU? If yes, any stuttering? If yes, any way to disable the dGPU on Linux via ACPI calls?

[DarginMahkum]

On 9/6/2022 at 6:38 AM, Conan11 said:

• The original 1TB drive is single sided. It is pressed from the front by a heatsink, and from the back by a piece of rubber. A 4TB SSD recommended by Lenovo is double sided with the chips cover only part of the back side, so I presume the rubber doesn't press against the chips, but the flat piece of the card. These 4TB SSDs are not available to buy at the moment.
• I have a pair of Firecuda 530, and they have chips on the whole length of the card. They don't really fit well and they bend. The pieces of rubber can be easily removed (and possibly reinstalled) and then there is plenty of space. However then the drive under the keyboard is not tightly secured, as the screw is a bit too long. It's probably not completely loose, at it is pressed from the top by the heatsink, but I'd still feel better by adding a washer, or maybe some thinner spacer in place of the rubber piece.

This is sad on a workstation grade laptop.

[Conan11]

20 hours ago, DarginMahkum said:

This is sad on a workstation grade laptop.

Yeah... following a discussion on Lenovo forum, I purchased a bit thinner thermal pads to place under the SSDs. It's however difficult to say, if it helps. It's not so easy to test, as I'm not sure if the SSDs get lots of dedicated cooling, and their temperatures seem to depend on the loads on CPU and GPUs.

[JakeG]

My experience with the P16 (and P1) so far:

 

I purchased my first P16 over the summer and received it in September.  i7-12800HX, A1000, 16GB, 512GB SSD, UHD+ display.  There were 3 issues I observed during the first couple weeks:

• -          Getting hot while asleep.  HWinfo was reporting max temps in the 80 and 90°C range while asleep.
• -          Display flicker.  A single brightness setting (6 steps below max brightness) was flickering badly.
• -          Trackpad not responding consistently.  Tapping the track pad would not always give a response.  Even if I repeatedly tapped the same spot many times, it wouldn’t respond.  If I lifted my finger and moved to another spot, it would then respond.

I worked with a premium support tech who assisted me with reinstalling Windows.  This seemed to resolve the display flicker, but the other two issues remained.  Regarding the heating while asleep, the support tech knew I was using ethernet via dongle so he suggested I disconnect that before putting to sleep.  The machine didn’t get nearly as hot while asleep without ethernet, so next step was to try using Wifi, which also seemed to be much better.  Unfortunately, my 30 day eval window was ending so I opted to return the machine.

 

I then purchased a P1 Gen 5. I7-12700H, A1000, 16GB, 512GB SSD.  With this machine I observed that it ran hot under normal operating conditions (ie. not asleep).  Temperatures for this machine were often in the 80 – 90°C range while just doing some basic surfing or Office tasks.  But the concerning part for me was that the fans weren’t running when the temps were high.  They almost never came on.  I believe during initial Windows updates they came on but other than that it was very rare.  I did really enjoy the silence, but I wondered about the long term durability of the machine.  I also missed the numeric keypad so I opted to return it.

 

Next and current, I purchased another P16.  Same config as first except 32GB and 1TB (for lower price than first machine).  Regarding the issues observed with the first machine:

• -          There is no heating up while asleep.  With the first machine I could just place my hand on the keyboard (while asleep) and feel the heat.  This is no longer happening.  Core temperatures seem to be in the 20°C range while asleep and ethernet connected.
• -          Display flicker is gone – or at least not present enough for me to notice.
• -          Trackpad from time to time still doesn’t respond to taps, but I’m dealing with it and hoping a driver update comes along. 

I’m going to guess that the heating while asleep issue was resolved by a driver update that happened in the interim between my first and second P16 machines. 

 

I’m at the end of my eval window for the second P16 and it looks like I’ll be keeping it.  Based on my early experience with overheating though, I’m keeping a close eye on temperatures as reported by HWinfo.  The typical CPU operating temperatures I see now are in the 30 – 40°C range (surfing, word processing).  The fans seem to come on with temps very approximately 38°C.  As I’ve been typing this post over 30 minutes, the fans haven’t come on yet.  On occasions when I’ve watched video over the internet for 30 mins, HWinfo reports max temperatures in the 60-70°C range, maybe touching 80°C. 

 

Which brings me to one area I’m still concerned with -  I have noticed that as soon as HWinfo shows (some of) the core temperatures above 50°C, it also reports:

• -          Core power limit exceeded
• -          Package/Ring power limit exceeded

And then when core temperatures exceed 70°C, HWinfo reports:

• -          Core thermal throttling
• -          Package/Ring thermal throttling

I was under the impression that CPU temperatures in this range (50-70°C) were pretty normal for these processors.  Is it normal to expect that the CPU will be throttling when doing a basic task like surfing or watching video?  Or is there more interpretation required of what HWinfo is actually telling me?

 

Here is a typical display from HWinfo that I see after 30 mins of watching video.

 

 

 

[DarginMahkum]

I am still swinging between this and HP Fury G9...

[japiyapi]

r23 score after repaste.

I noticed core frequency get over 4.9GHz during single core test. (4.6GHz before repaste)

I’ll try 300w ac brick and see how it can affect performance.

 

 

 

 

[japiyapi]

Before ordering 300W ac, I applied liquid metal (conductnaut) for cpu and diamond grease (DX-2) for gpu. I didn’t use LM for gpu cuz gpu doesn’t get too hot while loading. 

Idle temp is around 45℃ for both cpu and gpu.

R23 single test score get around 23k and looks like LM works. 

I tried 10min test but package power go down to around 60W after turbo boost power time so couldn’t get enough performance.
I still see some thermal throttling but cpu goes around 4GHz and package power get around 157W  (3.6-7GHz and 110-120 W before LM).

I’m gonna order 300W AC and see how performance changes.

 

[Plextor]

On 12/14/2022 at 9:32 AM, japiyapi said:

r23 score after repaste.

I noticed core frequency get over 4.9GHz during single core test. (4.6GHz before repaste)

 

 

Was repasting hard to do?

What LM did you use? did you take pictures during repaste?

[saperkus]

I have a request. Can any of P16 owners share Cinebench R15 benchmark scores?

[Plextor]

On 1/22/2023 at 4:01 PM, saperkus said:

I have a request. Can any of P16 owners share Cinebench R15 benchmark scores?

 

[Halaster]

On 12/18/2022 at 6:51 AM, japiyapi said:

Before ordering 300W ac, I applied liquid metal (conductnaut) for cpu and diamond grease (DX-2) for gpu. I didn’t use LM for gpu cuz gpu doesn’t get too hot while loading. 

Idle temp is around 45℃ for both cpu and gpu.

R23 single test score get around 23k and looks like LM works. 

I tried 10min test but package power go down to around 60W after turbo boost power time so couldn’t get enough performance.
I still see some thermal throttling but cpu goes around 4GHz and package power get around 157W  (3.6-7GHz and 110-120 W before LM).

I’m gonna order 300W AC and see how performance changes.

 

 

 

How exactly did you get the Intel Extreme Tuning Utility to actually run on a P16 Laptop?

 

I have tried every version from 7.6.0.37 up to the latest 7.10 build. Including the 7.9.1.3 version you are running.

The older versions will not launch at all, and the newer versions now have a built in check to make sure that Undervolt Protection is enabled in the bios, and as far as I can tell that option is not even available on my P16 to enable or disable. So when attempting to run the Intel Extreme Tuning Utility now it just throws an error saying it is Unable to start.

 

Feedback about my laptop specifically, with the hardware I have I have extreme heat problems, and power issues, which cause severe performance drops. As long as I am using it normally it is fine, but if I actually use software like Blender, DAZ, or gaming the power brick cannot always keep up with the use of the laptop. The Laptop will throw error messages that it is not being supplied enough power sometimes, and even plugged in it uses more power than can actually be supplied. I tried two different 230Watt power bricks I have, as that is what comes with it. On top of that, the power bricks occasionally actually get so hot that they will completely shut down and stop working sometimes up to 20 minutes, while they cool back down to a usable, not burn you when you touch it, temperature. When the laptop is fully loaded as well it cannot keep all of the USB ports and HDMI port working properly. So if you for example plug in an external monitor or VR headset like an Oculus CV1 into the HDMI, and devices into the USB ports they will keep dropping connections, the USB more often than the HDMI, but both common enough to be considered not truly usable. My specs specifically are maxed out. In the laptop is the RTX A5500, i9-12950HX, 128GB DDR5, 2 2TB NVMe Drivers, and the 4K OLED Touch Screen.

 

Just sitting here typing this message in a 60 degree room, while copying some files, with absolutely nothing else running or going on, the Core Max temperature of the CPU is jumping all over the place, going between 52 to 70 and back, and triggering Thermal Throttling on and off repeatedly.

Here is the error message, and here is CINEBENCH R15 results requested above as well.

 

[Aaron44126]

7 hours ago, Halaster said:

How exactly did you get the Intel Extreme Tuning Utility to actually run on a P16 Laptop?

 

Do you have the latest BIOS installed?  My understanding is that undervolting support has been disabled in the latest Intel CPU microcode (permanently, unless someone finds a new workaround).  I know at least some Lenovo system BIOSs have been "patched" already.

More information —

[Halaster]

I do have the latest Bios installed but it has never worked for me for the months I have had the Laptop and I actually updated it specifically to try to get it working. That is why I was trying to figure out how he got it working. Hopefully he will reply and clarify if it is because of the BIOS version.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TwistedAndy]

As for the Undervolt Protection, you can check inf the Undervolt Protection is enabled in the HWiNFO64. You may find more details here: Intel Undervolt Protection

[Halaster]

2 hours ago, TwistedAndy said:

As for the Undervolt Protection, you can check inf the Undervolt Protection is enabled in the HWiNFO64. You may find more details here: Intel Undervolt Protection

Checking with HWiNFO64 based on that thread it is disabled for me, with nothing in the BIOS to enable it. The problem is that Intel Extreme Tuning Utility wont even run anymore unless you enable it. But if you enable it that defeats the entire purpose of running IETU to undervolt my laptop.

 

So I have a few problems here.

1. I cannot enable Undervolt Protection on the P16, which would allow IETU to run.

2. If I COULD enable Undervolt Protection and allow the app to run, I would not be able to undervolt due to turning on the protection.

 

So I need to know how to run a version of Extreme Tuning Utility that actually allows me to undervolt, and I want to know why Japiyapi was able to run a version of the app that wont actually run without Undervolt Protection turned on. How did he get the app to either ignore the check, or how did he enable Undervolt Protection on the P16?

[TwistedAndy]

You can try using ThrottleStop, for example.

[Halaster]

2 hours ago, TwistedAndy said:

You can try using ThrottleStop, for example.

I ended up figuring it out. Virtualization-based security was "Enabled" on my system even though it should have been off.

It was disabled in the bios, in the registry, and also all of the features were removed from Windows Apps and Features.

I had to use the group Policy Editor to get it to truly disable though. Once I did that IETU started running without an issue.

 

That also allowed me to confirm that this CPU has definitely completely locked out the ability to undervolt.

I saw some other folks online had managed to unlock it for this exact CPU via editing their BIOS, but for the P16 that also appears to be locked down completely.

 

I was able to dump the BIOS, search for the exact data in the BIOS, and found that the Overclock Lock was located at CpuSetup 0x10E and defaulted to Enable.

I then turned off secure boot in the BIOS and booted into Grubefi without issue and tried to edit the overclock lock to disabled, but even though UEFI tool indicates that this lock is not protected by boot guard at all, I was unable to write to the BIOS. It appears to be locked down and write protected, thus my final dead end.

 

So it looks like I can monitor data now with the tools but Undervolting is currently completely disabled. It is also greyed out in ThrottleStop.