Precision 7680 / Precision 7780 pre-release discussion (Raptor Lake, 2023)

[Nigh on Noon]

It seems they are currently listing the RTX 3000 as having 12GB, so either they got the name or the VRAM amount wrong. Hopefully the RTX 3500 is what that option actually represents.

[Aaron44126]

The support material is showing that they are offering RTX 3500 Ada, and RTX 3000 Ada is not an option.  They probably got it wrong on the order page ...?

 

NVIDIA's brilliant naming conventions don't help with this.

[Aaron44126]

Dell Precision 5680 — Available May 18

 

Note the SmartCard slot.  This appears to be an original Precision design (like 5470 last year), not an XPS derivative.

 

[Edit]

Here's a Dell announcement.  The 5000 series lineup is Precision 5480 and 5680.

[Nigh on Noon]

Whoa, the 5680 looks nice. A compact chassis, but still has two so-dimms and a card reader. But the screen options are disappointing - only 60hz and you have to choose either 1920x1200 or 3840x2400. I feel like 2560x1600 120Hz+ should replace FHD/WUXGA as the bare minimum sort of display these days. (Same criticism applies to the 7680.)

[Aaron44126]

Not a Dell thing, but I have to point to the Framework Laptop 16 announcement, which also happened today.  I know a lot of us wish for modular graphics to return to laptops, and they're onto something here.

 

[Edit]

1 hour ago, Nigh on Noon said:

I feel like 2560x1600 120Hz+ should replace FHD/WUXGA as the bare minimum sort of display these days. (Same criticism applies to the 7680.)

 

Disagree.  While I personally would never get such a low-resolution display at this point, there are people who want/need 100% display scaling, especially in business environments with apps that haven't transitioned well to high-DPI, so it makes sense that such an option is available.

 

As for whether there should be an "in-between" option, I can see that but I wonder if they think they'd sell enough of each type to consider offering two different high-DPI panels.

[yslalan]

Dell is saying RTX 3000Ada with 12GB, that’s typo?

[AL123]

3 hours ago, Nigh on Noon said:

Whoa, the 5680 looks nice. A compact chassis, but still has two so-dimms and a card reader. 

Unfortunately there is an error on the spec sheets I’ve had it confirmed it’s soldered ram compromise for the small size.
maybe CAMM in future versions! 
 

Also I believe it is a 180W power supply with the discrete graphics which would make sense for the new up to 5000 series graphics will confirm later as that is based on my memory of briefings we had on this while it was still under NDA. I can confirm it is a ground up design as a precision, also need to confirm if it has Vapor Chamber cooling like the old 17inch version based on the xps 17, 

 

 

[Aaron44126]

Spec sheets are public.

 

https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/en-us/products/workstations/technical-support/precision-3480-spec-sheet.pdf

https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/en-us/products/workstations/technical-support/precision-3580-spec-sheet.pdf

https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/en-us/products/workstations/technical-support/precision-3581-spec-sheet.pdf

https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/en-us/products/workstations/technical-support/precision-5480-spec-sheet.pdf

https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/en-us/products/workstations/technical-support/precision-5680-spec-sheet.pdf

https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/en-us/products/workstations/technical-support/precision-7680-spec-sheet.pdf

https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/en-us/products/workstations/technical-support/precision-7780-spec-sheet.pdf

 

37 minutes ago, AL123 said:

Also I believe it is a 180W power supply with the discrete graphics which would make sense for the new up to 5000 series graphics will confirm later as that is based on my memory of briefings we had on this while it was still under NDA.

 

Spec sheet indicates that it is 90W or 130W, depending on configuration.

As for SODIMM, XPS 15/17 systems still use SODIMM so I don't see why Precision 5680 couldn't ...?

[MyPC8MyBrain]

looks like there's only performance chassis for the 7x80 line.

[Nigh on Noon]

1 hour ago, AL123 said:

Unfortunately there is an error on the spec sheets I’ve had it confirmed it’s soldered ram compromise for the small size.
maybe CAMM in future versions! 

Well that's unfortunate. That puts it off my radar for now. Like Aaron said, even the smaller XPS 15 has sodimms.

[yslalan]

33 minutes ago, Nigh on Noon said:

Well that's unfortunate. That puts it off my radar for now. Like Aaron said, even the smaller XPS 15 has sodimms.

If you look into the 5570 and 5770 lines, you will find they only provided 4 vRAM chips or 6 vRAM chips, however, RTX5000 requires 8 vRAM chips. That vRAM rows take a large area on the logic board, which would be the main factor the 5680 abandoned the SODIMM memory.

[Aaron44126]

28 minutes ago, yslalan said:

If you look into the 5570 and 5770 lines, you will find they only provided 4 vRAM chips or 6 vRAM chips, however, RTX5000 requires 8 vRAM chips. That vRAM rows take a large area on the logic board, which would be the main factor the 5680 abandoned the SODIMM memory.

 

Holy cow, just now realizing that RTX 5000 Ada is actually an option in the Precision 5680.  That could indeed be a factor, that would be a lot of board space for the dGPU and associated components.

 

But.  RTX 5000 Ada on a system that only has 130W PSU?  What's the point?  😕

Maybe the spec sheet is wrong about the power supply too.

 

I took a look at the spec sheet.  They don't show the motherboard, but they do show one of those breakdown images where you can sort of see the motherboard shape and component positions, as well as the shape of the heatsink/cooler.  I don't see anything that looks like SODIMM memory modules.

[yslalan]

6 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

Not a Dell thing, but I have to point to the Framework Laptop 16 announcement, which also happened today.  I know a lot of us wish for modular graphics to return to laptops, and they're onto something here.

I just have a quick look into the Framework 16, I found they are using a DGFF connector? 

[Aaron44126]

Yes, I saw that too, it does look an awful lot like the original DGFF.

 

I think they have posted specs for everything on GitHub; I don't know if they could have copied it directly from Dell if there was any sort of patent attached to it.

 

(For extended conversation on Framework Laptop 16, let's do it on the Framework Laptop thread...)

[Ionising_Radiation]

2 hours ago, yslalan said:

I just have a quick look into the Framework 16, I found they are using a DGFF connector? 

Hahaha, that is 100% DGFF. I am getting a gut feeling Framework licensed the connector from Dell. It makes sense, Dell has been using it over several different systems, the connector is straightforward and very slim, and facilitates a very high-speed PCIe connection.

[wallstreetbets]

Interesting they moved the left USB-C ports to the middle of the laptop

 

It looks like they took the Precision 7670 thin chassis and converted it to the new 5000 series laptops. I wonder if it has any implications for future XPS lineups? Not a fan of soldered DIMMs, yucky

 

They ditched the model number scheme for OptiPlex desktops ... wat the heck? 

[AL123]

6 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

 

Holy cow, just now realizing that RTX 5000 Ada is actually an option in the Precision 5680.  That could indeed be a factor, that would be a lot of board space for the dGPU and associated components.

 

But.  RTX 5000 Ada on a system that only has 130W PSU?  What's the point?  😕

Maybe the spec sheet is wrong about the power supply too.

 

I took a look at the spec sheet.  They don't show the motherboard, but they do show one of those breakdown images where you can sort of see the motherboard shape and component positions, as well as the shape of the heatsink/cooler.  I don't see anything that looks like SODIMM memory modules.

Yeh that’s what I was meaning the ram and power supplies listed didn’t match the specs that had been shared with me prior to launch, I don’t recall if a graphics power rating was shared but I’d hope for higher than 65W in the old 5770

 

I found the performance of the RTX A3000 in the 7770 and 5770 were remarkably similar even doing tasks such as GPU rendering which use 100% GPU power. To be frank that challenged my assumptions!

 

These ADA cards have such a wide power range so it will be be interesting to see where the performance and efficiency curve is on these different GPUs. 
 

I’ll try and clarify atleast the power supply today along with asking on cooling.
 

I suspect the spec sheets were a little rushed since this model is further out with a may launch date 

 

[yslalan]

1 hour ago, AL123 said:

I’d hope for higher than 65W in the old 5770

On the old 5770, the 65W limits can be unlocked by flashing 7770's 130W vBIOS, that what I did on 5760. However, I still haven't found shared vBIOS from 7770/7670

[Aaron44126]

12 hours ago, Ionising_Radiation said:

Hahaha, that is 100% DGFF. I am getting a gut feeling Framework licensed the connector from Dell. It makes sense, Dell has been using it over several different systems, the connector is straightforward and very slim, and facilitates a very high-speed PCIe connection.

 

So, the whole pinout spec is public.  I know there was a leaked pinout of the DGFF connectors floating around at some point.  I wonder if it matches up...

https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay/blob/main/PCB Reference Design/FW_EXPANSION_BAY_PCB_0.pdf

https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay/tree/main/Electrical

 

[Edit] At a glance, it looks like there are at least some pins for things like powering/monitoring the fans in the expansion bay, which wouldn't have been applicable to Dell's implementation.  Despite the connectors looking the same, they are very different.  The right one appears to be for PCIe (eight lanes), while the left one is for "everything else".

[alittleteapot]

19 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/en-us/products/workstations/technical-support/precision-7780-spec-sheet.pdf

 

I do love me a good spec sheet ^____^

1. I had to watch techpotato's (Dr. Ian Cutress)'s youtube on DDR5 ECC to really understand what is going on with the memory here.  128GB non-ECC CAMM @3600Mhz or 64GB ECC 2xSODIMM @5200Mhz?  Didn't I hear that all DDR5 is ECC?  Basically, on-module DDR5 ECC is a marketing gimmick that enables manufacturers to sell more denser RAM chips, but only helps protects from static memory thermal bitflips and does not protect memory integrity when it gets sent to the CPU.  It's a bit of an unfortunate tradeoff because I see 128GB as vital nowadays.
 

2. On the other hand, the 30B Alpaca LLAML model will run on 64GB (it might even run on 32GB but that's unlikely), and it turns my 12-core Ryzen 3900X into a space heater.  It'd be really interesting to see how 32 threads of Intel's best mobile CPU would perform on this.  If I ask a question on ChatGPT, I can assume it's going to be uploaded to the cloud and staying there... if I ask the equivalent that's running on my desktop, I know my questions will stay between me, my desktop and my creator 😉 But seriously, these home ChatGPT clones are getting very close to the point where they can assist with coding and debugging IP source code that cannot leave the workstation, if they haven't already gotten there already.  This field is changing basically on a daily basis.

 

3. On the subject of NVIDIA RTX™ 5000 Ada Zoomer Generation 16 GB GDDR6, 16GB is apparently enough to run one of those 13B LLAML models real quick-like and stuff, if you're a total nerd and are able to get it to work.

 

 

[yslalan]

4 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

The right one appears to be for PCIe (eight lanes), while the left one is for "everything else".

Having a quick search on other forum, 

 

Someone is able to convert DGFF to M.2 connector, it looks like the right DGFF is for PCIE x8 only, that is matched what I thought. On 7550, it has 3 DGFF connectors for x16 PCIe lanes, and on 7760, it has 2 DGFF connectors for x8 lanes, can confirm 1 DGFF is responsible for x8 data transfer, and 1 DGFF is responsible for other signals handling. They must customize some pinout that it can pass through the fan PWM signal.

[Aaron44126]

45 minutes ago, alittleteapot said:

1. I had to watch techpotato's (Dr. Ian Cutress)'s youtube on DDR5 ECC to really understand what is going on with the memory here.  128GB non-ECC CAMM @3600Mhz or 64GB ECC 2xSODIMM @5200Mhz?  Didn't I hear that all DDR5 is ECC?  Basically, on-module DDR5 ECC is a marketing gimmick that enables manufacturers to sell more denser RAM chips, but only helps protects from static memory thermal bitflips and does not protect memory integrity when it gets sent to the CPU.  It's a bit of an unfortunate tradeoff because I see 128GB as vital nowadays.

 

I watched that very same one last year before picking up the Precision 7770.  On-die ECC seems to be there because memory is getting so dense that they expect some faults, and "hopefully" the internal ECC will prevent that from being an issue.

 

You can still get 128GB ECC on other manufacturers' systems that support four DIMM slots (HP, Lenovo) but there are other potential compromises with those systems.  I'd assume ECC CAMM modules will show up, eventually, since that appears to be the way the world is moving...

[AL123]

On 3/24/2023 at 7:52 AM, yslalan said:

On the old 5770, the 65W limits can be unlocked by flashing 7770's 130W vBIOS, that what I did on 5760. However, I still haven't found shared vBIOS from 7770/7670

🙂 unfortunately not really an option for us, business values stability and warranty over tweaks like that! 

 

The surprise for me was I didn’t see a huge difference between 7770 and 5770 in GPU heavy loads rendering using iRay only saw a 5% difference and similar 5-10% in Open GL pro graphics workloads. 

 

This wasn’t the same across the board for instance an RTX a2000 running at 40W In a precision 5570 was more than 20% slower than the same card in a Precision  7670 running at 80W (IIRC) how much difference did you see for various workloads? 

 

For me there just seems to be some really efficient points along the power curve but if it’s right at the bottom end you lose more performance.
 

will be interesting to test out for the Ada generation, especially if we get a bigger than 130W power supply to allow for higher sustained lower 

 

Regarding the 5680 I haven’t had power supply confirmed yet but some press articles mention power delivery; 

 

“Extended Power Range (EPR) technology means more power (165W versus 130W) can be delivered through a universal USB-C connector.”

 

https://develop3d.com/workstations/dell-launches-13th-gen-intel-core-precision-laptops/

 

So 165W atleast so I’d hope for more like 80W+ graphics power…..if it can cool it. 

 

 

[yslalan]

On 3/26/2023 at 7:00 AM, AL123 said:

business values stability and warranty over tweaks like that! 

I would say there are no stability or warranty issues. The chip is exactly the same between different models if the A3000 is installed. The only issue you will encounter is that only 3 of the 4 Thunderbolt 4 ports will work for video output in the Windows system (Linux works perfectly). The 5770/5760 models have a vapor chamber installed, which has a high heat capacity to handle the graphics card working at 115 watts. Similar to the operations that have been done in the 7770 owners' thread (modifying voltage shift for BIOS settings), the vBIOS upgrade will not cause you to encounter warranty issues. At least for me, my 5760 was exchanged by the Dell support team for a 5770 with no argument regarding the vBIOS change.

[AL123]

1 hour ago, yslalan said:

I would say there are no stability or warranty issues. The chip is exactly the same between different models if the A3000 is installed. The only issue you will encounter is that only 3 of the 4 Thunderbolt 4 ports will work for video output in the Windows system (Linux works perfectly). The 5770/5760 models have a vapor chamber installed, which has a high heat capacity to handle the graphics card working at 115 watts. Similar to the operations that have been done in the 7770 owners' thread (modifying voltage shift for BIOS settings), the vBIOS upgrade will not cause you to encounter warranty issues. At least for me, my 5760 was exchanged by the Dell support team for a 5770 with no argument regarding the vBIOS change.

Good to hear dell pro support have always been excellent for us also a real differentiator and pretty flexible when they can be! However our company has a fleet of 300+ precision laptops so these sort of tweaks aren’t on the agenda really so for us it’s more interesting to see the capabilities out of the factory. I am suspecting from the images the 5680 lacks vapour chamber also 😞