Mr. Fox

6 minutes ago, Papusan said:

Yep, benching should be for fun. Not points. And the ranking have been screwed up many years, so....

In some ways it was more fun when I was benching and didn't even know about HWBOT. I didn't have to worry about special screenshots and a list of do's and don'ts, or legalistic nonsense. If anyone didn't like what I posted they could kiss my hind end... didn't care whether they liked it or not. That's one reason I like running game benchmarks.

Just now, Papusan said:

Yep, I know. But it will come a flood of them and they will stay there until one report them or the mode team catch it. The ranking and points will never be correct as it is now with the ECC mess.

I bet they go in the order of ranking and the "golden boys" will be the last to gets theirs deleted, or they will conveniently get overlooked in the purging process.

It's going to be interesting to find out how high this sucker will clock on a chilled water block. Getting "hot" it's still averaging 3126MHz on core, LOL. I am going to have to try more than +1600 on memory, too. Maybe it will do +1700 or more.

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/89118436

46 minutes ago, MyPC8MyBrain said:

of curse it will ECC is additional processing layer which defeats the whole premises of running a bench,
for other application it is critical when its reliable stability they are after for implementing ECC on a server not for benching bleeding edge performance,

 

lets call a spade a spade the developers made a booboo and the only way to ensure result is to enable ECC so they can get a readout they can reliably analyze, in simple word their bench software cant keep up, is that a fair assumption? 

Sounds about right to me. It's just like the stupid Benchmate thing. Add a bunch of extra crap that creates system overhead and slows things down just to try and stop cheaters from cheating. It's ridiculous. Expecting people to self-moderate their benchmark scores is also kind of unrealistic. Where do you start splitting hairs on what is acceptable versus unacceptable? I mean, you can have a bugged out score that is inflated a little bit and hard for anyone to tell if it is accurate or not, and then you have those where it is totally obvious that it is not accurate.

49 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

I'm really liking this GPU. I still hate how overpriced it is, but dang... nice overclocking device.

 But, I do remember one of the reasons I have never like AIO coolers. Those stinking hoses really suck compared to a custom loop. Very limiting on where you can put the radiator. My case is too huge for it to reach the front panel, so I temporarily removed one of the 200MM fans and mounted this to the roof of my case to help exhaust the hot air. I hope to have a block on it in the next 24-48 hours.

I never knew they had a thread for this because I don't spend much time crawling through threads at HWBOT Forum. I cross-posted in the thread designed for it.

https://community.hwbot.org/topic/203413-if-you-want-your-score-to-be-deleted-ask-here/?do=findComment&comment=636481

I'm really liking this GPU. I still hate how overpriced it is, but dang... nice overclocking device.

I found there is like a dead spot of instability between about 3020MHz and 3060. If I set an overclock in that range it bugs out, but if I push past it to like 3105 or 3120MHz it doesn't crash the benchmark. 

7 minutes ago, johnksss said:

Below means it's enabled right? 23.5GB. Above means ECC is off 24.5GB

2 minutes ago, Papusan said:

Yep, ECC Enabled eats some of the vram. 
 

A typo above. Write on a phone. 

Evidently a driver glitch. Maybe a TDR error tripped it off or something. See what I posted below.

This one is valid.

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/89116421 | https://hwbot.org/submission/5201316_

1 hour ago, johnksss said:

So that's with ECC off right?

No, but it is probably a bugged run. I ran one right behind it that was just a few points less than your last submission. I forgot to take a screenshot with NVCP open so I am trying to get another buggy run with the screenshot showing it enabled.

Edit: I think what might be happening is ECC enabled sometimes glitches and disables itself.

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/89115387

So, I ordered a Barrow GPU block. I was going to wait for a Alphacool Eisblock Aurora, but found a thread on Reddit where someone that had one discovered there are two VRM chips that have no cooling (totally bare). The cold plate totally missed them. They even took a picture showing it with the block installed, and that's a definite way to end up with a dead GPU. Most likely the issue is they used the MSI Trio as the basis for the block design. It has the same PCB as the Suprim, but it does not have any VRM components there, just empty solder pads where they would be on a Suprim.

Then, the Bykski block for one of the 4090 models doesn't allow proper seating of the 12VHPWR cable because it presses on the tab for the latch and keeps it from latching. You'd have to carve a notch into the acrylic to create clearance for the tab in order to fix it.

I am not going to spend $350 on an EKWB or Phanteks GPU block, so that leaves Corsair and Barrow. It's coming from Fontana, CA so I might have it tomorrow or Wednesday.

https://www.reddit.com/r/watercooling/comments/y3pizh/rtx_4090_block_compatibility_spreadsheet/

@Papusancongrats on the Galax HOF 4090. It should be a really great overclocker. Hopefully, it's performance will be more than enough to cause you to forget about the silly color choice and its hideous aesthetic qualities. Maybe at least one company will make a GPU block for it, so that might fix that issue for you. The PCB will still be white, but that would fix the other aesthetic issues.

1 hour ago, ryan said:

but i have to ask did you guys just move away from laptops because its all bga now?

What Brothers@johnksssand@Papusansaid. Laptops just aren't worth the money, hassles and headaches at this point. Trying to make them less trashy garbage is a waste of time and energy... totally futile. The only thing that makes a modern turdbook better than a smartphone is having a larger screen and keyboard/mouse.

4 hours ago, Talon said:

Honeywell PTM pad works fantastic for direct die application. I’ve been using it on my Omen 16 for over a year and temps haven’t gotten worse a single bit. Core to core temp differentials are tight and it provided for me near LM results with no risk. 
 

I also put it on an AMD 6750XT and had huge temp improvements there as well. 
 

They do NOT work well on desktop CPUs. My hypothesis is that the IHS does not get hot enough to “melt” the phase change thermal pad. Where direct die gets hot and will melt it. This melting is necessary as initial temps will be terrible! When you first install it expect horrible near thermal shut down temps. This is completely normal as the pad is thick and needs thermal cycles to

Melt and meet optimal thickness. This can take 20 minutes of load/cooling, a few hours or a day to reach full potential. I’ve found a couple hours and it will be a max potential. It will never need to do this again, only on initial application. 

2 hours ago, Etern4l said:

 

Many thanks for those insights. I can tell I will have a ton of fun with this stuff lol. So what happens when the pad melts, I presume the excess is permanently squeezed out of the contact area? It would follow that unlike graphite pads, this one is not reusable. 

46 minutes ago, cylix said:

Thx for the info, yes the pads are made for industrial use and in the car industry where they need to last long without any maintenance so its very useful to put it on and forget about it, should last the whole life cycle of the notebook.

I have a hunch that these are the pads that Alienware used on the stock heat sinks back in the day. They worked well and were very durable. But, you could not remove and remount the heat sink or it would destroy the original phase change pad. I suspect that would hold true here as well. If you ever needed to take it apart, you would need to remove the old pad and replace it.

15 minutes ago, johnksss said:

Looking good, Brother John. Now we're back on topic again, too. 👍

Have you found a Windows 7 driver mod for 4090 yet? I've searched high and low, and found nothing. I spent about a half day yesterday trying to mod one myself. I finally tweaked things enough to get the driver to install normally and without error (a DCH driver) but when I reboot the GPU is code 43. There has to be a way to do it, I just haven't figured out what the Green Goblin and the Redmond Retards did to interfere with the functionality... yet.

1 hour ago, MyPC8MyBrain said:

though i don't have @Reciever responsibilities and only been here for a short while thus far,
i too find @ryan personality amusing and very friendly, i can tell he has a lot to learn, but i think his heart is in the right place, at some point in our early days we were all eager to learn everything yesterday, we had little more time to "get polished" i believe he will matures with time and figure out the lines to adhere sooner than later 😉

Forum moderation is difficult. I did it for a good while at the old NBR and got to the point where I had enough.

The reach of this community is global, and that makes moderation even harder. He is from Canada, I am from the Desert Southwest. We have cultural differences even within our own states and provinces, yet South American, European, UK, Asian, African, Bavarian, Slavic, etc. cultural influences add complexity to relationships. People from every region and continent are represented here.

Words that can seem harmless to one can be very negative to others. For example, in the Deep South the expression "well, bless their heart" is often used. To someone that is not local it may sound like a pleasant expression of positive thought, kindness or compassion for adverse circumstances, and logically so. It would be in most places. But, those that live in the Deep South utilize it as a very condescending insult that is tantamount to saying that a person is as dumb as a box of rocks.

Profanity is a universally recognized phenomenon that has no positive association in any culture and it is not necessary for communication; although the gravity of utilizing it in conversation it can vary widely from one person, or culture, to the next.

Brother @ryanis a wonderful person and I am glad he is part of our community. We are better because of his being here.

I have had to adjust my communication style and refrain from speaking freely, even though sometimes it takes all the effort I can muster to say nothing. While it might not seem like it to some, there are many things I would like to say that I do not because it might spark strife or controversy. I like everyone that is part of this community in spite of where we may have differing views. I am a lot older than he is and have had more time to practice. 

There are also generational, cultural and familial values differences that come into play among all of us. My kids say things today as adults that would have gotten them a hard spanking or their mouth washed out with soap, but to their generation they are just sassy, smartalek words and not highly offensive and destructive words that you would only use in a contemptuous and hateful way. Sadly, that can cloud good judgment and lower social standards because it doesn't respect the power of the tongue. Fortunately, they are smart enough to recognize that they have to consider their audience and temper their language in a manner that doesn't convey a different message than what they intend.

Here is a passage (Matthew 15:18) from The Message (an amplified Bible translation) that I think really nails it. It is not the actual words themselves, but the intent behind them and the condition of the heart and mind as you are speaking them, that makes them problematic.

Jesus replied, “You, too? Are you being willfully stupid? Don’t you know that anything that is swallowed works its way through the intestines and is finally defecated? But what comes out of the mouth gets its start in the heart. It’s from the heart that we vomit up evil arguments, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, lies, and cussing. That’s what pollutes. Eating or not eating certain foods, washing or not washing your hands—that’s neither here nor there.”

2 hours ago, ryan said:

I didnt actually know this but I assumed swearing was due to lack of a vocabulary as commonly known... but alot of studies indicate the opposite here something grabbed right from google headlines

 

People assumed that choosing to use swearwords meant you were too dumb to think of different, better, or more polite words. But. Newer research (from 2015) shows that someone using expletives has nothing to do with a lack of overall vocabulary.

 

people with a higher vocabulary tend to swear more often according to reports

I am not sure how reliable that data is. It may not be reflective of intelligence or mastery of vocabulary as much as just being a rude, crass and uncouth or unprincipled person that lacks self-discipline. A creative use of vocabulary has potential to be far more accurate and even hurtful when the tongue is wielded as a weapon without the use of vulgar words.

Example:

"Ricky is a dumbass." or "What I find most amazing is the fact I cannot recall having ever met a person more lacking in common sense and basic human intelligence than Ricky." The former might be nothing but a reaction to an isolated circumstance or a basis for disagreement with Ricky. The latter is a emotionless statement that describes Ricky's ineptness and defects as a human being. The latter is far more hurtful to Ricky than random use of a vulgar word. If your intent is to hurt Ricky's feelings, calling him a dumbass isn't going to do much. It just makes you look like a jerk. (Hopefully, nobody here is named Ricky. I just chose that name because I don't know anyone by that name.)

1 hour ago, ryan said:

ok its football time.....does anyone know of a free streaming site with or without ads...i really really wanna watch it it would mean alot to me

Fox Sports - you can stream it on PC or smart TV.

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl-2023-super-bowl-lvii

8 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

That sounds great. Just to confirm - the method is: 1) delid 2) LM on die 3) LM on the IHS (can be an IHS from a different LGA1700 CPU). I guess I will burn some time and money trying to procrastinate and on this, then get started. This would solve the cooling, if not open up some OC potential.

One more noob Q: why would I bother looking for another IHS to use after delidding? Isn't the CPU warranty voided and CPU split open, so any future owners of the CPU would just have to accept this, or is it possible to reassemble a delidded CPU with the original IHS (for resale for instance)? Not clear why though. If a CPU is successfully delided, it has more value in a sense as it will run cooler? 

Yes, you have the correct methodology. As for the noob question, it really only matters to someone that might want to buy it later. When you are attempting to sell it, it is helpful  that anyone can see in the photo what they are buying. It can also help with identifying any spare parts you have in an inventory or stash if you can tell what it is without having to label it or put it into a system to identify what it is. These are the reasons I like having the original marking legible. It is otherwise totally irrelevant, and the performance improvement is more valuable.

There are some people that are truly weirdos and care about the markings more than they care about performance. They are also often the type that want to keep the original decals and tags on products they buy. I have known a lot of people that want to keep original decals on things that are old, worn-out and curling on the edges. By the time that has happened, removing the decals is actually aesthetically detrimental because the color of the surface under the decal no longer matches the adjacent surfaces that were not covered by the decal.

As a general rule, a delidded used CPU should be worth more to someone that knows enough to value it as an enhancement. You are correct that the warranty is voided by the delid. If you buy a tray (OEM) CPU that is not a boxed retail product, it has no warranty from Intel. So, there is no warranty to void unless the place that sold it to you offers a warranty.

13 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

Great tips as always! BTW What the bottom line delidding result for you again? AFAIR you weren't too impressed with the 12900KS initially? Then again, 13900K is a different beast (needs 50W more power for me). Did you delid the 13900K too?

Yes. I actually got good results from a delid on both. I had truly lousy results bare die with the Supercool 12th Gen kit (which has been redesigned). What I ended up having to do on the 12900K to get good results is sand down the bottom of the IHS. Apparently there was enough of a lip to make an air gap where the solder used to be. @tps3443actually suggested that. When I started checking closer why nothing was helping, I found that the IHS would not "spin" on the die because it was dragging on the PCB. Once I sanded it down enough that the IHS was resting on the die instead of contacting the PCB, the temps instantly fell in line. I did not have to do that with the 13900K. In both cases about 10°-12°C improvement from delid.

13 minutes ago, ryan said:

yeah I guess. I don't typically swear, but when I do its usually just in the context of the words they used. if something says sposting and im defending someone ill reference the word sposting. but I don't get why after 1.5k posts this is even an issue. how many of us are bothered by the odd euphemism or slang word?

I find it offensive when people use profanity in casual conversation, and it causes me to think negative things about them as a person. I know lots of people that use the "s" and "f" words in general conversation and they always strike me as being a bit dumb and not having a good command of the English language, even though some are very intelligent. At the very least, it conveys a sense that they are lacking common courtesy and professionalism. When someone is angry, upset or physically injured, I do not find it so offensive because the fact that they do not normally use that type of language lets me know that something unfortunate has occurred and the vulgar expression is helping them cope with the physical or emotional trauma of the situation.

22 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

Thanks for the LM tips, I have a feeling I will soon be in a position of having no choice but to put them into practice (nothing against LM in principle, but the setup is clearly more complicated and damages the CPU markings).

 

Good point about the pads. There is also a 7950 paste, but laptop people have been complaining about it requiring 14h curing time. Let me actually order that too, as it could prove more suitable.

Edit: no luck finding any apart from ebuy7. Oh well. It will get here by Easter or something.

It does make the CPU laser etched marking obscure and generally illegible. I have heard you can use sulfuric or muriatic acid to restore them, but it is the one thing I do not like about using it. If you have delidded, just get an aftermarket IHS or buy a cheap used Celeron and steal the IHS from that. I bought a used LGA 1700 Celeron on eBay for like $35, took the IHS off of it and put it on my 13900K with liquid metal. 😄 You can also use the Rockit Copper IHS, but I had to trim it down a bit with a dremmel tool to make it fit the Thermalright CPU frame. Once I did that it worked great. 

9 minutes ago, ryan said:

average age in NBT 45 plus

 

1) rule 1 no swearing (swearing isnt like it was in the 50s....last time I checked it was 2023)

2) rule two don't comment alot too build forum up

3) no double triple posting.

 

I honestly thought we were adults, and we make NBT as them. how come everyone but me can swear? @Mr. Fox  @Papusan

I think some of it may have to do with context, timing, and the choice of words. I tend to use slang euphemisms like "effed up" in place of the more offensive term that should not normally be used by a civilized person with an IQ above 50. I know the kiddos think it makes them a big boy to use potty-mouth in normal casual conversation that involves no expression of emotion. Profanity is best reserved for situations that call for an emphasis or conveyance of extreme anger or pain. It provides a way of safely venting by using harsh words in lieu of violent actions or threats.

17 minutes ago, ryan said:

I think it would be fun learning to build a desktop and finally being able to properly overclock and benchmark I seem to enjoy it enough so its not a waste of money. Im just not sure if I should save up and go all out or just go midrange as I do game a tiny bit....the odd 10 min session once a week

Watch the video from Dawid. Good parts and good instructions from NZXT. I think the NZXT BLD option would be a really good option for you, unless you really want someone else to assemble it. 

17 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

I've pretty much tried all the top pastes now and none are fully adequate. Will try this, then go to LM if needed. A lot of conflicting info on the benefits of LM when applied on the IHS though.

The key to getting liquid metal to work on top of the IHS is applying enough and applying it to both surfaces. If you don't use enough and do not apply it to both mating surfaces it is not going to work as well. The most common mistake is only applying it to one surface. A wet IHS and a dry heat sink is almost guaranteed to perform worse than thermal paste. That also applies to laptops, under the IHS on a delid, and bare die. Both halves have to come together wet to get good results.

17 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

Yeah, the problem is that they are just 8.5W/mK, and most (the only?) great reviews I have seen are from laptop users. I have yet to watch the Linus video on it. Anyway, I ordered some for science, if anything. 

They are also too thick for good results in an application where fitment is not problematic. You want as little TIM as possible when the parts fit well. The closer to zero space you can get between the IHS and cold plate the better. Adding thickness there impairs heat transfer. It's only beneficial when the parts fit poorly and you need to have something chunky to plug the gap.

18 minutes ago, cylix said:

NZXT has this program where they send you all the components in a box and then you can build it yourself, so its like an ikea furniture, u cant screw up 😀

I think it was Dawid that featured one of those in a YouTube video. I thought it was good, and he always makes it entertaining.

Edit: Found it... was his wife, but still a good option and an entertaining video. @ryan

19 minutes ago, ryan said:

I dont want to build a unit but whats a good start into desktops pre built....something upgradeable 

Pick anything that is NOT an Alienware. If you look at GamersNexus YouTube channel, they have highlighted the failures of numerous system-builders (which are many, unfortunately) and Alienware is, hands-down and undisputed the master of failure, flawed design and engineering abortion. Also avoid all of the big names like HP, Lenovo, Dell XPS, MSI and ASUS for pre-builts. They all suck, just not as bad as Alienware sucks.

Go with companies like Origin, Digital Storm, NZXT, Maingear, Build Redux, etc. Corsair is so-so, but I would avoid anything SFF or proprietary from anyone. You'll end up with compromises almost as bad as wasting money on an effed-up Alienware.

22 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

Has anyone here tried the Honeywell PTM7950 phase-change pad? Apparently it's the new best thing. Just ordered some on ebay, as kind of disappointed with all the non-LM pastes I have tried. They may be great for laptops or lesser  CPUs, but they are not really cutting it with a standard AIO and 300W workloads.

They're really only good for chintzy turdbooks that have sloppy-fitting parts that don't work well with thermal paste due to half-assed engineering and lousy manufacturing QC. If you have a desktop you are going to be better-served by a good thermal paste or liquid metal.

7 hours ago, Papusan said:

Motherboard Shipments Plummet by Ten Million Units in 2022: Report

The combined hit for Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, and ASRock reportedly around 10 million.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/motherboard-shipments-drop-ten-million-units-in-2022-report

We can only hope...

The article misses the mark on what is to blame...

Quote

The observed “feeble demand” for motherboards spanned the whole year, said the report, and was impacted by the usual suspects; workers returning to the office, the crypto-slump, and the economic downturn.

The problem, at least in great part, is due to their idiotic pricing. I do not believe it is due to lack of demand or economic downturn. People that don't have money and shouldn't spend what they do not have are being more stupid than ever about using credit cards. (That is going to bite them--and maybe the rest of us--in the butt in the long run, but it is what it is.) I think the real issue is there are enough people that are not stupid, so they are not giving into stupid prices.

Even the mediocre gamer mobos are priced like the high-end enthusiast/overclocker boards now. The high-end options are beyond ridiculous pricing, but they are still selling because people like us place importance on having what we want over being intelligent about how we spend money.  The mid-range Strix mobos are a good example. I bought mine on eBay as refurbished/open-box option for what should have been new retail pricing, but new retail price is/was more than what I paid for a Dark mobo on sale direct from EVGA. It's OK, but the Strix is definitely not an enthusiast board. It is a gamer mobo priced like it is an overclocker mobo.

6 minutes ago, Talon said:

And 18” screen has now ruined me. I just could not accept 2 decent large dead pixel clusters on a brand new device.

It is very difficult for me to tolerate small screens and keyboards. Minimum acceptable (just barely) is 17.3" screen and I absolutely loathe TKL keyboards. Every time I have owned a laptop with either a 15-inch screen or a keyboard without the numeric keypad I have hated it and regretted buying it.

3 hours ago, johnksss said:

That guy does come off as a smart ass part of the time. At least it seems like that to me.

 

Edit: I see my scores are falling off fast...

He changed his response at some point. He initially called me out for repeating the same thing and that made no sense because I was not repeating anything I had ever said before, LOL. Nor was I repeating anything someone else had said. Here was my notification email. I got a kick out of your response to him. 🙂

5 minutes ago, Tenoroon said:

Hopefully the last P870TM question I'll post here, but I've been trying to figure out if the vapor chamber chamber GPU heatsink or the T-shaped GPU heatsink is better. I want to push the 1080 in here, but I have the vapor chamber heatsink and I'm not sure which is better. I'm willing to buy the T-shaped heatsink if it is verifiably better, but I don't want to be dropping 70-80 bucks on it if it's worse or equal to the vapor chamber I have now.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

vs.

 

 

Vapor chamber is definitely better, whether you have one or two GPUs installed.

10 minutes ago, ryan said:

sweet thanks @Mr. Fox. I need to get my hands on a 4090. I think ill wait till the 5090 comes out because I need to get what I put in for this jokebook

You're welcome.

Let's be honest about gaming. You do not (or at least I do not) need a 4090 to have a good experience. I thoroughly enjoy these and other games with my 3060 Ti FTW3. There is no tangible change in the experience running 100-150 FPS faster with a 4090 versus the 3060 Ti FTW3. I wouldn't know the difference except for the on-screen overlay telling me. 3090, 3090 Ti, 4090 are good for number-chasing. I would not have wasted my money on a 3090 or 4090 for gaming.

Here is Crysis (1) Remastered since that is what you technically asked for. I tried to use the built-in benchmarks for these, but I could not get them to work. The batch files could not "find" the file specified.

SMAA 2TX (max anti-aliasing) ~170 FPS

DLSS: Quality  ~220 FPS