*Official Benchmark Thread* - Post it here or it didn't happen :D

[electrosoft]

I need a couple of Windows 10 Pro licenses.  Where is the most inexpensive place to pick up a few?

 

 

[Mr. Fox]

10 hours ago, johnksss said:

Yes, until you need it....I did that and forgot I had benchmarks saved. lol

I've given up on Port Royal for the time being. Things seem back to normal now. I can't get the clocks to hold, but they are at least holding steady again. Most of the time, 2175 is the highest clock I can get under load. It doesn't matter how high it starts, within a few seconds it is at 2175 and staying there through the end. I did get my best ever Time Spy and Fire Strike runs in last night, but Port Royal stays in the 15.5K range due to the limited core clock max.

 

I am pretty sure the reduction in clock speed is temperature related. You seem to be able to keep your GPU 20-25°C colder than I can get mine and that is more than enough temperature difference to be an impediment to GPU benchmark scores. The water in my loop is staying cold enough (if the digital meter is accurate) but the core is getting between 40-50°C. I may try different thermal pads and liquid metal to see if that helps. I used KPX at the last GPU repaste. The issues I had with leaking after cleaning the block and having the o-ring slipping out of place required that I take it apart three times before I could get the o-ring to seal again, so I could also have a pad out of place that is interfering with contact. But, I have noticed my CPU temps are also higher using KPX than they are using Phobya, Cryo or MX4. I like how easy KPX is to use, but so far it doesn't seem to be as effective at transferring the heat. Everything I have used it on (both desktops and laptop) have higher temperatures using KPX. It may be ideal for sub-zero cooling because it doesn't harden and crack.

9 hours ago, electrosoft said:

I need a couple of Windows 10 Pro licenses.  Where is the most inexpensive place to pick up a few?

I have purchased them a number of places, including eBay. I have purchased more from Kinguin.net than anywhere else. Sometimes a few bucks more than eBay, but always reliable (so far) for me.

 

https://www.kinguin.net/listing?active=0&hideUnavailable=0&phrase=windows&page=0&size=25&sort=bestseller.total,DESC

[Mr. Fox]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

I did get my best ever Time Spy and Fire Strike runs in last night, but Port Royal stays in the 15.5K range due to the limited core clock max.

Brother @johnksss it looks like the temperature readings from 3DMark are a LOT lower on your GPU than mine are. It doesn't take more than 5-10°C to cause a pretty big drop in GPU core clocks, as we both know. I really hate that about modern GPUs. I wish they would hold their core max clock until 80°C like they did when things were still done right. Temperature target is essentially meaningless now because of how max core clocks are stair-stepped in stupid bins relating to temperature.

 

https://hwbot.org/submission/4972225_mr._fox_3dmark___time_spy_geforce_rtx_3090_23047_marks/

https://hwbot.org/submission/4972233_mr._fox_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_rtx_3090_43920_marks/

[johnksss]

33 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

I've given up on Port Royal for the time being. Things seem back to normal now. I can't get the clocks to hold, but they are at least holding steady again. Most of the time, 2175 is the highest clock I can get under load. It doesn't matter how high it starts, within a few seconds it is at 2175 and staying there through the end. I did get my best ever Time Spy and Fire Strike runs in last night, but Port Royal stays in the 15.5K range due to the limited core clock max.

 

I am pretty sure the reduction in clock speed is temperature related. You seem to be able to keep your GPU 20-25°C colder than I can get mine and that is more than enough temperature difference to be an impediment to GPU benchmark scores. The water in my loop is staying cold enough (if the digital meter is accurate) but the core is getting between 40-50°C. I may try different thermal pads and liquid metal to see if that helps. I used KPX at the last GPU repaste. The issues I had with leaking after cleaning the block and having the o-ring slipping out of place required that I take it apart three times before I could get the o-ring to seal again, so I could also have a pad out of place that is interfering with contact. But, I have noticed my CPU temps are also higher using KPX than they are using Phobya, Cryo or MX4. I like how easy KPX is to use, but so far it doesn't seem to be as effective at transferring the heat. Everything I have used it on (both desktops and laptop) have higher temperatures using KPX. It may be ideal for sub-zero cooling because it doesn't harden and crack.

I have purchased them a number of places, including eBay. I have purchased more from Kinguin.net than anywhere else. Sometimes a few bucks more than eBay, but always reliable (so far) for me.

 

https://www.kinguin.net/listing?active=0&hideUnavailable=0&phrase=windows&page=0&size=25&sort=bestseller.total,DESC

 

13 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

Brother @johnksss it looks like the temperature readings from 3DMark are a LOT lower on your GPU than mine are. It doesn't take more than 5-10°C to cause a pretty big drop in GPU core clocks, as we both know. I really hate that about modern GPUs. I wish they would hold their core max clock until 80°C like the did when things were still done right.

 

https://hwbot.org/submission/4972225_mr._fox_3dmark___time_spy_geforce_rtx_3090_23047_marks/

https://hwbot.org/submission/4972233_mr._fox_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_rtx_3090_43920_marks/

Short answer....your loop.

Didn't you get like 55K gpu score with your 5950X?

[Mr. Fox]

27 minutes ago, johnksss said:

 

Short answer....your loop.

Didn't you get like 55K gpu score with your 5950X?

Yes, but that was before I took it apart and cleaned the trash out of the Hydro Copper. GPU core is almost always above 40°C under load now. I have even seen it get into the high 50s, but usually in the low to mid 40s under load, in the low to mid 10s at idle. It used to drop into the single digits and stayed in the teens under load.

 

The loop shows water temperature between 14-20°C and a flow rate between 190-220 L/H. The temperature and flow rate measurements are taken at the return line side of the loop, after having already passed through the CPU and GPU. Looking at it right now, without the chiller being used since last night, it is hovering around 30-31°C and 200-205 L/H flow rate.

[johnksss]

1 hour ago, Mr. Fox said:

Yes, but that was before I took it apart and cleaned the trash out of the Hydro Copper. GPU core is almost always above 40°C under load now. I have even seen it get into the high 50s, but usually in the low to mid 40s under load, in the low to mid 10s at idle. It used to drop into the single digits and stayed in the teens under load.

 

The loop shows water temperate between 14-20°C and a flow rate between 190-220 L/H. The temperature and flow rate measurements are taken at the return line side of the loop, after having already passed through the CPU and GPU. Looking at it right now, without the chiller being used since last night, it is hovering around 30-31°C and 200-205 L/H flow rate.

So that we are on the same page about flow rate...What does that 205 L/H translate to?

On my screen it shows flow rate of 3.7 LPM to 4.7 LPM on a good day and warmer water. If I remove filters and the gpu something like 5.3 to 5.7 LPM.

 

So right now about 4.3 LPM/1.1 GPM

 

A while back my gpu temps stayed hot no matter what. I found that my LPM rate was .09 to 1.2 LPM. Once I fixed that no more really hot gpu temps.

 

Edit:

Had to find a converter...

205 L/H = 3.42 LPM

190 L/H = 3.17 LPM

4.3 LPM = 258 L/H

3.7 LPM = 222 L/H

And the flow rate slows down when getting colder not go faster... Not sure how yours is working in reverse?

 

Or

 

I could be totally wrong and totally disregard. 😂

[Mr. Fox]

45 minutes ago, johnksss said:

And the flow rate slows down when getting colder not go faster... Not sure how yours is working in reverse?

 

Or

 

I could be totally wrong and totally disregard. 😂

Maybe I said something in a way that was unclear, but I have not noticed any difference in flow rate based on temperature. It does not seem to vary by a lot. By that I mean it is not different today than yesterday, only that watching the meter over the course of a minute it will change up and down every few seconds and somewhere in the middle is the average and there isn't a big difference between the high/low/average. It is maybe just a little bit lower using anti-freeze than just straight distilled water, but not enough that I could quantify it with a number. I think that is due to the water being lower viscosity.

 

One thing I am going to experiment with (haven't had time) is how using the EK manifold might improve flow rate through the GPU so it is not dependent on the volume of water that can move through the CPU. They could function independently and not have one affect the other. It won't change the flow rate of the loop necessarily, but if it is harder to move water through the CPU block, the GPU won't be starved because it can flow through both of them independently and simultaneously. I hope that makes sense. I don't have the manifold set up that way at the moment, but I plan to test the theory and compare both ways.

[electrosoft]

Hardware Numb3rs is finally back and did an in depth test of 12900k vs 5000 vs 11th vs 10th for WoW.

 

Conclusions?

 

12900k is a God chip for WoW and smashes every other chip badly including the 10900k

10900k is better overall than 5000 and 11th for WoW but nothing that is a game changer. Only upgrade path is to 12900k.

E-Cores hurt performance greatly even in W11 for WoW as the schedule (hot garbage) can't prevent the main thread from drifting to e-cores

Memory tuning results in massive gains using DDR5 (he is going to test DDR5 vs DDR4 soon)

Coupled with the 12900k, 3090 beats the 6900xt at every resolution massively even with SAM enabled.

 

I'll be passing on the 6900xt now as the 3000 series is the clear winner and I can't see a scenario where the 5800X3D can catch up with that massive gap in performance with its extra cache but you never know.

 

12900k vs all others:

 

 

E-Cores off vs on:

 

 

12900k + 6900xt:

 

 

12900k + 3090:

 

 

 

[johnksss]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

Maybe I said something in a way that was unclear, but I have not noticed any difference in flow rate based on temperature. It does not seem to vary by a lot. By that I mean it is not different today than yesterday, only that watching the meter over the course of a minute it will change up and down every few seconds and somewhere in the middle is the average and there isn't a big difference between the high/low/average. It is maybe just a little bit lower using anti-freeze than just straight distilled water, but not enough that I could quantify it with a number. I think that is due to the water being lower viscosity.

 

One thing I am going to experiment with (haven't had time) is how using the EK manifold might improve flow rate through the GPU so it is not dependent on the volume of water that can move through the CPU. They could function independently and not have one affect the other. It won't change the flow rate of the loop necessarily, but if it is harder to move water through the CPU block, the GPU won't be starved because it can flow through both of them independently and simultaneously. I hope that makes sense. I don't have the manifold set up that way at the moment, but I plan to test the theory and compare both ways.

I totally understand. Not a problem there.

But going by your higher over all temps. CPU and GPU...From my experience means the water is not flowing fast enough through the system. Causes range from filters being clogged. CPU and or GPU blocks are blocked internally slowing down the flow of water.

 

I thought about the manifold idea as well and was going to grab a y adapter version of a manifold to test the theory, but did not get around to doing it yet.

[johnksss]

4 minutes ago, electrosoft said:

Hardware Numb3rs is finally back and did an in depth test of 12900k vs 5000 vs 11th vs 10th for WoW.

 

Conclusions?

 

12900k is a God chip for WoW and smashes every other chip badly including the 10900k

10900k is better overall than 5000 and 11th for WoW but nothing that is a game changer. Only upgrade path is to 12900k.

E-Cores hurt performance greatly even in W11 for WoW as the schedule (hot garbage) can't prevent the main thread from drifting to e-cores

Memory tuning results in massive gains using DDR5 (he is going to test DDR5 vs DDR4 soon)

Coupled with the 12900k, 3090 beats the 6900xt at every resolution massively even with SAM enabled.

 

I'll be passing on the 6900xt now as the 3000 series is the clear winner and I can't see a scenario where the 5800X3D can catch up with that massive gap in performance with its extra cache but you never know.

 

12900k vs all others:

 

 

E-Cores off vs on:

 

 

12900k + 6900xt:

 

 

12900k + 3090:

 

 

 

It sure would suk if the guy with the 95 fps average was knocking the stuffing out of everyone else with a 100+ better average. All while the other guys are yelling hey look at me at a 135 fps, but my KD is .47.😂😂

[Mr. Fox]

17 minutes ago, johnksss said:

I totally understand. Not a problem there.

But going by your higher over all temps. CPU and GPU...From my experience means the water is not flowing fast enough through the system. Causes range from filters being clogged. CPU and or GPU blocks are blocked internally slowing down the flow of water.

 

I thought about the manifold idea as well and was going to grab a y adapter version of a manifold to test the theory, but did not get around to doing it yet.

What is puzzling about it is everything is freshly cleaned (filters, blocks, etc.) and now the temps are higher, particularly on the GPU. I can't really say for sure on the CPU because that is new and I have very little to compare with before/after. And, the loop flow rate is higher because of everything being fresly cleaned and because I reduced the QDC fittings restrictions when I redid the loop structure. It is about 70 L/H higher than it was before, yet it did not help anything that I can tell. But, the temps went the other direction coincidental to cleaning the Hydro Copper block. That happened before I restructured the loop and I think that is where I need to start the investigation. My guess is something with the mounting of the block to the GPU might not be ideal. That is only a guess right now though. There should not be a huge delta between the water temperatures and core temperatures if my logic is correct. If that is an accurate statement, it seems to point to mounting of the GPU block.

 

Edit: It is also possible that using the Fujipoly pad on the entire back plate is affecting core temps negatively by "normalizing" the heat over the whole GPU. Sure, the memory might be 20°C cooler now, but it might be due to the memory forcing some of its heat onto the GPU core because now it has a pathway or conduit to do that which did not exist before.

[johnksss]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

What is puzzling about it is everything is freshly cleaned (filters, blocks, etc.) and now the temps are higher, particularly on the GPU. I can't really say for sure on the CPU because that is new and I have very little to compare with before/after. And, the loop flow rate is higher because of everything being fresly cleaned and because I reduced the QDC fittings restrictions when I redid the loop structure. It is about 70 L/H higher than it was before, yet it did not help anything that I can tell. But, the temps went the other direction coincidental to cleaning the Hydro Cooper block. That happened before I restructured the loop and I think that is where I need to start the investigation. My guess is something with the mounting of the block to the GPU might not be ideal. That is only a guess right now though. There should not be a huge delta between the water temperatures and core temperatures if my logic is correct. If that is an accurate statement, it seems to point to mounting of the GPU block.

You could also try just cooling the gpu by itself and see what happens.....

Then comeback around and remount the block on it.

 

Also to add...I have to check my filter regularly. When my flow drops to 3.4 I clean my filter. Those filter slow the rate of flow by like .5 to 1 per filter on the system.

[Mr. Fox]

1 minute ago, johnksss said:

You could also try just cooling the gpu by itself and see what happens.....

Then comeback around and remount the block on it.

That's a good idea, but I don't think I have the parts I would need to test that.

[johnksss]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

That's a good idea, but I don't think I have the parts I would need to test that.

You don't have a normal heat sink laying around? I keep a AIO and a heat sink just incase for stuff like this. Or something you can remove the screws from or has open holes so it just sits on the mounting bracket and you just tighten it down.

[Talon]

33 minutes ago, electrosoft said:

Hardware Numb3rs is finally back and did an in depth test of 12900k vs 5000 vs 11th vs 10th for WoW.

 

Conclusions?

 

12900k is a God chip for WoW and smashes every other chip badly including the 10900k

10900k is better overall than 5000 and 11th for WoW but nothing that is a game changer. Only upgrade path is to 12900k.

E-Cores hurt performance greatly even in W11 for WoW as the schedule (hot garbage) can't prevent the main thread from drifting to e-cores

Memory tuning results in massive gains using DDR5 (he is going to test DDR5 vs DDR4 soon)

Coupled with the 12900k, 3090 beats the 6900xt at every resolution massively even with SAM enabled.

 

I'll be passing on the 6900xt now as the 3000 series is the clear winner and I can't see a scenario where the 5800X3D can catch up with that massive gap in performance with its extra cache but you never know.

 

12900k vs all others:

 

 

E-Cores off vs on:

 

 

12900k + 6900xt:

 

 

12900k + 3090:

 

 

 

AMD has some serious ground to make up with Zen 4. 

[Papusan]

2 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

 I really hate that about modern GPUs. I wish they would hold their core max clock until 80°C like they did when things were still done right. Temperature target is essentially meaningless now because of how max core clocks are stair-stepped in stupid bins relating to temperature.

Because Nvidia have squeezed out every drop from it's arch the last few gens. And RMA cost money. Loads of money. Be happy they didn't cripple it further as they do for the Jokebook graphics. This is the choice between plague and cholera. 

Cool crusher instead of a fusion reactor: the GeForce RTX 3090 Ti turns the efficiency list upside down with a 300-watt throttle and beats the Radeons igorslab.com

[Mr. Fox]

16 minutes ago, johnksss said:

You don't have a normal heat sink laying around? I keep a AIO and a heat sink just incase for stuff like this. Or something you can remove the screws from or has open holes so it just sits on the mounting bracket and you just tighten it down.

I don't have anything I can use on the GPU that I can think of. I could use the pump/block from the KPE AIO if you are finished using it, but I do not have a spare GPU water block and do not know how I could cool the GPU without the Hydro Copper block on it at the moment.

 

Or, did you mean leave only the GPU in the current loop and remove the CPU from the loop? I may have misunderstood what you meant. I had a CPU AIO as a spare part, but I used it in a PC build for one of my sons so I don't have that available. And, I no longer have a CPU air cooler. I got rid of the one I had when I sold off some stuff that was just taking up space in my crowded little office.

13 minutes ago, Talon said:

 

AMD has some serious ground to make up with Zen 4. 

And... not only performance deficits to contend with, but also a general lack of stability and reliability that needs to be fixed. The WHEA errors and USB drop-out issue are not things I am likely to forgive and forget for a very long time. A system that produces nice benchmarks scores loses a lot of its sparkle when it is unreliable and frustrating to deal with for normal everyday use. The 5950X and Crosshair experience was my "21st Century Edsel" in the digital realm. 

[Papusan]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

What is puzzling about it is everything is freshly cleaned (filters, blocks, etc.) and now the temps are higher, particularly on the GPU.

 

I don't have anything I can use on the GPU that I can think of. I could use the pump/block from the KPE AIO if you are finished using it, but I do not have a spare GPU water block and do not know how I could cool the GPU without the Hydro Copper block on it at the moment.

 

Or, did you mean leave only the GPU in the current loop and remove the CPU from the loop? I may have misunderstood what you meant. I had a CPU AIO as a spare part, but I used it in a PC build for one of my sons so I don't have that available. And, I no longer have a CPU air cooler. I got rid of the one I had when I sold off some stuff that was just taking up space in my crowded little office.

Split the loop is smart for trouble shooting.

[Mr. Fox]

10 minutes ago, Papusan said:

Split the loop is smart for trouble shooting.

Yes, I agree. I need to primarily focus on the GPU core temps on chilled water, but I don't think I have the parts I need to isolate the CPU from the loop. It would not make any sense to test the GPU without chilled water because that is not an issue that needs to be resolved. It's not an overall issue either. It's only that I can't get it cold enough for higher GPU core clock when benching. It's perfectly fine for everything else other than that. And, there is a huge difference between the temperature of the chilled water in the loop and the GPU core. I think that is where it seems logical to start the witch hunt. Probably focusing first on the contact point and TIM sitting between the GPU block and the GPU core. There is roughly a 20-25°C delta there.

[electrosoft]

11 minutes ago, Talon said:

 

AMD has some serious ground to make up with Zen 4. 

 

They do actually and they will need to bring overall value along with rasterization gains to 7000 series GPUs. We talk about AMD driver maturation, but Nvidia clearly made strides too with their drivers and the gains from his testing 10 months ago to now coupled with 12th gen are substantial.

 

When he tested RKL, 10th gen was still champ but 5800x was the overall winner but that was before the AGEISA neutering began and coupled with SAM pushed it ahead of Intel. More importantly, the 3000 series "CPU overhead" issue @ 1080p was an issue but either that has been resolved, 12th gen is simply out muscling the issue or a combo of both has produced a massive performance delta that even surprised him.

 

Before, we would see AMD win at 1080p, trade blows at 1440p and lose at 4k. Add a 6900xt to the mix at lower resolutions and SAM and it was even worse for Intel and Nvidia. Fast forward 10 months later and 12th gen plus 3000 series is the clear winner across all resolutions by huge margins.

 

If I had pulled the trigger on a 6900xt to play with a week or two ago based upon previous assumptions and data like I was contemplating and then saw these new updated results (or just experienced them myself first hand), I would have been kicking myself in the keister while absorbing the sale loss on eBay or elsewhere as 6900xt's continue to tank in the used market and aren't really even moving new at $1199 and lower.

 

I usually leave e cores on, but I'm going to disable them and re-dial in my 12900k then start the long process of manually dialing those 2x16GB DDR4 b-die sticks from @Mr. Fox 

 

 

[johnksss]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

I don't have anything I can use on the GPU that I can think of. I could use the pump/block from the KPE AIO if you are finished using it, but I do not have a spare GPU water block and do not know how I could cool the GPU without the Hydro Copper block on it at the moment.

 

Or, did you mean leave only the GPU in the current loop and remove the CPU from the loop? I may have misunderstood what you meant. I had a CPU AIO as a spare part, but I used it in a PC build for one of my sons so I don't have that available. And, I no longer have a CPU air cooler. I got rid of the one I had when I sold off some stuff that was just taking up space in my crowded little office.

And... not only performance deficits to contend with, but also a general lack of stability and reliability that needs to be fixed. The WHEA errors and USB drop-out issue are not things I am likely to forgive and forget for a very long time. A system that produces nice benchmarks scores loses a lot of its sparkle when it is unreliable and frustrating to deal with for normal everyday use. The 5950X and Crosshair experience was my "21st Century Edsel" in the digital realm. 

I mean you are removing the CPU from the loop. Using just a heat sink or aio so the gpu can run free.

And if testing just the CPU then just slap on a basic GPU with no water block. Best to keep one of those laying around for trouble shooting. Once the problem is solved then you can put it back to looking all nice and cute. lol

 

Also to add...the scaling is different for CPU than it is for GPU. the CPU can run a lot hotter and keep the same clocks....Not so much for GPU.

 

And if the water is 20C and your gpu is not about the same or lower (at idle)by a few degrees... You may need to take the block apart and check the tim spread and the thermal pads.

[Mr. Fox]

7 minutes ago, johnksss said:

I mean you are removing the CPU from the loop. Using just a heat sink or aio so the gpu can run free.

And if testing just the CPU then just slap on a basic GPU with no water block. Best to keep one of those laying around for trouble shooting. Once the problem is solved then you can put it back to looking all nice and cute. lol

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. In fact, that was part of my thought using the EK manifold since the CPU and GPU can flow independently (in parallel rather than series) and have totally unique flow rates. To test that I need to remove an internal plug from a chamber and relocate one QDC fitting to another port on the manifold, so that should be easy to do as soon as I take time to do it. Otherwise, I will have to spend money to buy parts I do not have just for testing. I may do that anyway. I can probably grab stuff from a yard sale or Craigslist cheap enough.

[ryan]

thats what I thought the temps are the reason for my higher scores.....temps are down scores are up.....should I repaste? does that even make a difference

[Papusan]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

Yes, I agree. I need to primarily focus on the GPU core temps on chilled water, but I don't think I have the parts I need to isolate the CPU from the loop. It would not make any sense to test the GPU without chilled water because that is not an issue that needs to be resolved. It's not an overall issue either. It's only that I can't get it cold enough for higher GPU core clock when benching. It's perfectly fine for everything else other than that. And, there is a huge difference between the temperature of the chilled water in the loop and the GPU core. I think that is where it seems logical to start the witch hunt. Probably focusing first on the contact point and TIM sitting between the GPU block and the GPU core. There is roughly a 20-25°C delta there.

Not sure what you have of parts. But let the Cpu get less priority (not important here). Use what you have and think more on the GPU part. Even a air coller help. Try fix you Port Roiale score. Or whatever GPU bench. Cpu isn't important in there.

[Mr. Fox]

2 minutes ago, ryan said:

thats what I thought the temps are the reason for my higher scores.....temps are down scores are up.....should I repaste? does that even make a difference

That is always true, especially for GPU. Even without overclocking, lower temps generally result in higher GPU core clocks.

 

If you are enjoying record-breaking results with your laptop, might be best to not "fix it" right now. It might not perform as well if you disturb things. I would say leave it alone if it is working well and hold off on changing anything until your results start trending in the opposite direction.