br2 Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 If you're used to Clevo's full size keyboard, this one is annoying. It has a key mapper which makes it usable, but it will be annoying til the next upgrade in 2-ish years. Lighter and quieter than Clevo X170KM-G. 20% faster compiling a system, twice as fast loading a database. Sorry, not a gamer, plenty of reviews around for that. Xotic p***d me off by hosing the setup, probably an anomaly but they lost my future business. Ed: Oh yeah, Clevo X170KM-G with i9-11900K is what it's faster than. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2 Posted January 24 Author Share Posted January 24 After a year I'm giving up on it. Killer ethernet is too unreliable to live with. I'm also forgiving Xotic as Msi didn't publish proper specs on their Raid setup. Going back to Clevo too as they're apparently the only full keyboard on a dtr-ish notebook. Maybe it's just an excuse to let myself get wifi7... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilpang Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 Other than Wi-Fi, how has it been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2 Posted January 24 Author Share Posted January 24 3 hours ago, wilpang said: Other than Wi-Fi, how has it been? Wired ethernet, not wifi. Not sure if wifi's better... Keyboard's annoying but otherwise good. light, quiet, fast. relative to behemoth dtr machines... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1610ftw Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 On 1/24/2024 at 8:21 PM, br2 said: Wired ethernet, not wifi. Not sure if wifi's better... Keyboard's annoying but otherwise good. light, quiet, fast. relative to behemoth dtr machines... Curious what Clevo you are going back to? I do not see them having any interesting DTR product right now as the X370 has its own numerous issues. To me the X170SM-G was the last worthy Clevo DTR: 10 cores, 4 SSDs, 4 memory slots, a hefty cooling solution, a good bios and a bunch of unlocked options including Prema and also aftermarket liquid cooling, fans, etc. I'd solve the ethernet situation with a Realtek 2.5G dongle or even an actively cooled 10G Thunderbolt solution from Sabrent, Akitio or Sonnet. They are reliable and you can uninstall the whole killer suite and get a WIFI 7 card, too. That is if you are not too annoyed by the num pad and cursor keys from Hobbiton... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2 Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 7 minutes ago, 1610ftw said: Curious what Clevo you are going back to?... I'd solve the ethernet situation with a Realtek 2.5G dongle or ... you can uninstall the whole killer suite and get a WIFI 7 card, too. That is if you are not too annoyed by the num pad and cursor keys from Hobbiton... X370. Yeah there are no real dtrs anymore. Waiting for Sager to allow 48 gig ram chips or Xpc to allow wifi7. Thinking about replacing the killer card but don't harsh my vibe... I just convinced my inner Scrooge to allow an upgrade ahead of time... I have the machine running out to the tv over display port/hdmi. I suspect that causes interference with ethernet. Tried a dongle but it had issues too. Wifi7 should give wireless performance similar to wired ethernet. 🫰 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1610ftw Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 9 minutes ago, br2 said: X370. Yeah there are no real dtrs anymore. Waiting for Sager to allow 48 gig ram chips or Xpc to allow wifi7. Thinking about replacing the killer card but don't harsh my vibe... I just convinced my inner Scrooge to allow an upgrade ahead of time... I have the machine running out to the tv over display port/hdmi. I suspect that causes interference with ethernet. Tried a dongle but it had issues too. Wifi7 should give wireless performance similar to wired ethernet. 🫰 😄 Possible about the interference. I used HDMI out, mini DP out, at least one USB and TB4 out with its predecessor without issues but I have the Akitio Thunder3 Dock with 10G and we most probably have quite different use cases. As for the X370 nothing wrong with an upgrade but I do not really see that it is much of an upgrade but rather a step or two back in a number of areas. If I had to recommend a replacement for the Titan without Killer in it then it would probably either be a Dell 7780 or its successor that will leak any day or an Alienware m18. In stock factory condition Clevo usually had lots of issues but I could disregard and mostly fix them with DTRs like the P775, P870 or the X170SM-G and for some time now even improve the cooling and fans. to my knowledge none of this is possible with this BGA book. That is unless it is for a special purpose like the system76 version but not many people need that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2 Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 12 minutes ago, 1610ftw said: 😄 Possible about the interference. ...As for the X370 nothing wrong with an upgrade but I do not really see that it is much of an upgrade but rather a step or two back in a number of areas. If I had to recommend a replacement for the Titan without Killer in it then it would probably either be a Dell 7780 or its successor that will leak any day or an Alienware m18. Yeah, not even 10% performance boost from 13980 to 14900. I need 3 drives. I'd like the 18 inch but it's qhd and i like uhd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
win32asmguy Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 1 hour ago, br2 said: X370. Yeah there are no real dtrs anymore. Waiting for Sager to allow 48 gig ram chips or Xpc to allow wifi7. Thinking about replacing the killer card but don't harsh my vibe... I just convinced my inner Scrooge to allow an upgrade ahead of time... I have the machine running out to the tv over display port/hdmi. I suspect that causes interference with ethernet. Tried a dongle but it had issues too. Wifi7 should give wireless performance similar to wired ethernet. 🫰 I have an X370 and its cooling system is not as good as the GT77 or most other 17 inch models on the market. It consists of thin heatpipes biased towards the GPU and small thin fans that have to run at high RPMs to keep the heatpipes from getting overwhelmed. Also it has a Killer E3100X lan chipset so there may be similar issues to what you are experiencing with the GT77. Running 96GB memory and three M.2 drives will further add more heat to the system. XMG was experimenting with some custom supplemental memory cooling that may help. Clevo X170SM - 10900K, 32GB DDR4-2933 CL17, 4TB WD SN850X, RTX 3080 mobile, 17.3 inch FHD 144hz, System76 open source firmware, Windows 10 Pro 22H2 Clevo X370SNW - 13900HX, 64GB DDR5-5600 CL40, 4TB Samsung 990 Pro, RTX 4090 mobile, 17.3 inch UHD 144hz, System76 open source firmware, Windows 10 Pro 22H2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1610ftw Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 1 hour ago, br2 said: Yeah, not even 10% performance boost from 13980 to 14900. I need 3 drives. I'd like the 18 inch but it's qhd and i like uhd. In that case I would also check out the Dell Precision 7780 and its soon to be announced successor. I think @win32asmguy had it at some point or its predecessor so he may be able to give you a brief verdict. It may be able to send a bit more power to the CPU than the Clevo but cooling is not that great either. It also has 4 NVME drive slots like big DTRs used to in the old days 🙂 I would probably wait to see what the successor brings as it may also have 18" UHD (slim chance but still). Overall it is rather pathetic that when you want at least 3 normal sized drives and a 17" or bigger screen you only have three options left. Half a dozen brands have by now either given up on bigger screens and/or on more than two drives and the others contenders all have rather obvious weaknesses or imo weird choices / mandatory combinations of hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2 Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 35 minutes ago, win32asmguy said: I have an X370 and its cooling system is not as good... 4 minutes ago, 1610ftw said: In that case I would also check out the Dell Precision 7780 . Man, workstation gets up to double the cost of the Clevo real quick, with half its guts... and it only allows 2 drives with Raid0. Yeah, options are limited. Xotic throws in a notebook cooler and various extra cooling options as you add features. Nothing's really ideal anymore, but memory also has rose colored glasses... Old Sagers were loud as jet engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1610ftw Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 I guess that is a big bonus of the Clevo. From the right sellers it is a lot less money than the options from MSI and Dell. Dell has an outlet where you can get great deals but they do not currently have an 7780 with a UHD panel on sale. MSI has been doing this stuff for ages where they do not factor in that not everybody always wants the biggest CPU with a very big GPU only to get more then two drives. Somebody should tell them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron44126 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 51 minutes ago, br2 said: Man, workstation gets up to double the cost of the Clevo real quick, with half its guts... and it only allows 2 drives with Raid0. Not necessarily suggesting that you get one. (I had a Precision 7770 which I was super excited about, but I dumped it in disgust after less than a year.) But a couple of points... Dell Precision 7000-series allows RAID-0 with as many drives as you can connect. Their web GUI might not allow it but once you have the system in hand you can configure it with whatever RAID configuration you want. (You should never buy drives from them anyway, the price is ridiculous. Precision 7000 line includes the hardware that you need to install additional drives whether you buy the drives from them or not.) I personally had three drives in RAID-0 in mine. You can pretty much always get a better price by going through a sales rep than you can get on the web. On my high-end config I saved about 20% over the web price by going through a sales rep. 1 Apple MacBook Pro 16-inch, 2023 (personal) • Dell Precision 7560 (work) • Full specs in spoiler block below Info posts (Dell) — Dell Precision key posts • Dell driver RSS feeds • Dell Fan Management — override fan behavior Info posts (Windows) — Turbo boost toggle • The problem with Windows 11 • About Windows 10 LTSC Spoiler Apple MacBook Pro 16-inch, 2023 (personal) M2 Max 4 efficiency cores 8 performance cores 38-core Apple GPU 96GB LPDDR5-6400 8TB SSD macOS 14 "Sonoma" 16.2" 3456×2234 120 Hz mini-LED VRR display Wi-Fi 6E + Bluetooth 5.3 99.6Wh battery 1080p webcam Fingerprint reader Also — iPhone 12 Pro 512GB, Apple Watch Series 8 Dell Precision 7560 (work) Intel Xeon W-11955M ("Tiger Lake") 8×2.6 GHz base, 5.0 GHz turbo, hyperthreading ("Willow Cove") 64GB DDR4-3200 ECC NVIDIA RTX A2000 4GB Storage: 512GB system drive (Micron 2300) 4TB additional storage (Sabrent Rocket Q4) Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2021 15.6" 3940×2160 IPS display Intel Wi-Fi AX210 (Wi-Fi 6E + Bluetooth 5.3) 95Wh battery 720p IR webcam Fingerprint reader Previous Dell Precision 7770, 7530, 7510, M4800, M6700 Dell Latitude E6520 Dell Inspiron 1720, 5150 Dell Latitude CPi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2 Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 21 minutes ago, Aaron44126 said: Not necessarily suggesting that you get one. ...Dell Precision 7000-series allows RAID-0 with as many drives as you can connect. ... yeah i figured i could probably get it configured right offline, for triple the cost...😜 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
win32asmguy Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 21 minutes ago, br2 said: Nothing's really ideal anymore, but memory also has rose colored glasses... Old Sagers were loud as jet engines. Yeah the X370 isn't exactly great and also has to sound like a jet engine under load. I am working on an X170SM build. Also open source bios + embedded controller firmware so it can be tuned and have full fan control. It will also have after market fans which are larger and have more blades so they can push higher CFM at lower speeds. Hopefully with a decent bin 10900k and 3080 mobile it can be tuned to operate around 45dB with reasonable performance. I never really enjoyed having e-cores either as it adds another step of micromanaging process. Often on my newer systems I would run with them disabled and only P-cores active. 2 Clevo X170SM - 10900K, 32GB DDR4-2933 CL17, 4TB WD SN850X, RTX 3080 mobile, 17.3 inch FHD 144hz, System76 open source firmware, Windows 10 Pro 22H2 Clevo X370SNW - 13900HX, 64GB DDR5-5600 CL40, 4TB Samsung 990 Pro, RTX 4090 mobile, 17.3 inch UHD 144hz, System76 open source firmware, Windows 10 Pro 22H2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electrosoft Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 33 minutes ago, win32asmguy said: Yeah the X370 isn't exactly great and also has to sound like a jet engine under load. I am working on an X170SM build. Also open source bios + embedded controller firmware so it can be tuned and have full fan control. It will also have after market fans which are larger and have more blades so they can push higher CFM at lower speeds. Hopefully with a decent bin 10900k and 3080 mobile it can be tuned to operate around 45dB with reasonable performance. I never really enjoyed having e-cores either as it adds another step of micromanaging process. Often on my newer systems I would run with them disabled and only P-cores active. The X170SM was the last one to truly get everything right especially with Prema having put in a lot of work on the BIOS and it is built like a tank. If they could add 11th gen support, that would be something fun to play around with it too. I had both and outside of the dual PSU and very hefty size, I loved them both. I'll be curious to see your progression with it in the X170SM-G thread! 2 Electrosoft Prime: 7950X3D | MSI X670E Carbon | MSI Suprim X Liquid 4090 | AC LF II 420 | G.Skill 6000 A-Die 2x32GB | Samsung 980 1TB | EVGA 1600w P2 | Phanteks Ethroo Pro | Samsung G7 43" 4k mLED Eurocom Raptor X15 | 12900k | Nvidia RTX 3070ti | 15.6" 1080p 240hz | Kingston 3200 32GB (2x16GB) | Samsung 980 Pro 1TB Heatsink Edition Heath: i9-12900k | EVGA CLC 280 | Asus Strix Z690 D4 | Asus Strix 3080 | 32GB DDR4 2x16GB B-Die 4000 | WD Black SN850 512GB | EVGA DG-77 | Samsung G7 32" 144hz 32" MelMel: i5-12400 | Asus Prime B660 | PowerColor HellHound 7900XTX | 32GB DDR4 G.Skill 3333 | 512GB M.2 | Gamdias | BenQ 32" 4k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1610ftw Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 @br2 Here is some info from Schenker about 96GB memory in laptops, not for HX CPUs: https://www.xmg.gg/en/news-roadmap-2023-q3-xmg-laptop-roadmap/ It is rather bizarre that both the Tongfang / Uniwill and the Clevos with HX CPUs are not deemed fit to use 48GB modules! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2 Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 13 hours ago, 1610ftw said: @br2 Here is some info from Schenker about 96GB memory in laptops, not for HX CPUs: Interesting, thx. I'm a fan of Xmg since they solved my 128 gig issue in the x170. I may just live with 64. Or live with Msi... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
win32asmguy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 hours ago, br2 said: Interesting, thx. I'm a fan of Xmg since they solved my 128 gig issue in the x170. I may just live with 64. Or live with Msi... If it were not for the fact that you are unhappy with MSI and the Killer lan chipset issues the new Titan 18 or CreatorPro X18 would be a good upgrade. Better cooling system, 18 inch UHD+ display, three M.2 drive slots, four SODIMM slots, better keyboard layout, better build quality. Although it is quite expensive. I am guessing even RTX 4080 / RTX 3500 Ada (pro) will be 4000usd when available. Clevo X170SM - 10900K, 32GB DDR4-2933 CL17, 4TB WD SN850X, RTX 3080 mobile, 17.3 inch FHD 144hz, System76 open source firmware, Windows 10 Pro 22H2 Clevo X370SNW - 13900HX, 64GB DDR5-5600 CL40, 4TB Samsung 990 Pro, RTX 4090 mobile, 17.3 inch UHD 144hz, System76 open source firmware, Windows 10 Pro 22H2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2 Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 Just now, win32asmguy said: If it were not for the fact that you are unhappy with MSI and the Killer lan... "Unhappy" is a little too strong for where I am with them. Annoyed that they have a compromised keyboard when there's ample room for a full one. Killer, I'm not sure if it's their issue or my environment, just wanting an alternative to see which it is. Yeah, the 18 inch Titan is an attractive option except for the stupid cramped keyboard. It comes in over 6k with everything I want. I think I'm just going to upgrade the wifi in the machine I have. My inner Scrooge will be pleased... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2 Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 The whole Killer thing may be solved. I've spent the past year fiddling with driver switches to no avail. I just dug into their too-busy app and found a "maximize throughput" setting and turned it on. It hasn't dropped the connection in over 24 hours. Not sure whether to be embarrassed... 🫰 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2 Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 Its network connection was still flakier than normal. I replaced its new (as of the time i bot it) cat7 cable with a 6a and moved the cat7 to another machine which immediately started flaking out. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ So far so good... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1610ftw Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 2 hours ago, br2 said: Its network connection was still flakier than normal. I replaced its new (as of the time i bot it) cat7 cable with a 6a and moved the cat7 to another machine which immediately started flaking out. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ So far so good... With Killer being known for their "reliability" one does not immediately think that the cable is the culprit so that is an unexpected - and cheap - solution! 2.5G is nice as in my experience it works fine with even cat 5e in short runs and with cat6 for everything else, no need for cat7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2 Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 33 minutes ago, 1610ftw said: ... no need for cat7. quick glance at Google indicates 7 was a dead end. if you're running cable in walls, probably go 8. 6a appears to be fine for 10g. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1610ftw Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, br2 said: quick glance at Google indicates 7 was a dead end. if you're running cable in walls, probably go 8. 6a appears to be fine for 10g. For new installations indeed cat8 seems to be the way to go for copper cables but if I already had cat7 everywhere I would not get all worked up about it as 10G is still plenty fast. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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