4 controversial laptop trends that should never have made it mainstream

[jaybee83]

On 1/4/2023 at 1:37 AM, M4980 said:

 

Nevermind, NVIDIA announced today at CES the true TDP ranges for these lovelace mobile GPUs, it's looking good for MXM type A still!

NVIDIA announces GeForce RTX 40 Laptop GPU series, RTX 4090 with 9728 CUDAs and 16GB GDDR6 memory - VideoCardz.com

 

Interesting that they allow the 4070 to go down to 35W

welp only in theory...i doubt anyone will consider building MXM-A gpus? 😅

[1610ftw]

21 hours ago, jaybee83 said:

welp only in theory...i doubt anyone will consider building MXM-A gpus? 😅

 

There were some last year but you had to sell a kidney to get them new, I think it got as high as the RTX A4500?

If you got one then that means you will not be able to buy a 4090 MXM this year as that one will cost you two kidneys 😄

[jaybee83]

2 hours ago, 1610ftw said:

 

There were some last year but you had to sell a kidney to get them new, I think it got as high as the RTX A4500?

If you got one then that means you will not be able to buy a 4090 MXM this year as that one will cost you two kidneys 😄

 

ah no, i meant specifically MXM-A format. what ure referring to is MXM-B, the "big brother", so to say. MXM-A is a shorter version with lower power:

[1610ftw]

Oh, I overread the A - those indeed would not help!

[M4980]

On 1/10/2023 at 9:00 PM, jaybee83 said:

welp only in theory...i doubt anyone will consider building MXM-A gpus? 😅

 

My guess is that at least one of these companies will commit to making Lovelace cards for the MXM-A embedded PCs that are still used in industry - there's Ampere MXM-A GPUs (A500, A1000, A2000), it would be strange to stop here unless a better socketed GPU standard was proposed

[jaybee83]

14 hours ago, M4980 said:

 

My guess is that at least one of these companies will commit to making Lovelace cards for the MXM-A embedded PCs that are still used in industry - there's Ampere MXM-A GPUs (A500, A1000, A2000), it would be strange to stop here unless a better socketed GPU standard was proposed

ok, cool! i wasnt aware that MXM-A cards were released for the Ampere gen, good info! in that case theres still a chance then 🙂 

[runix18]

16 hours ago, M4980 said:

 

My guess is that at least one of these companies will commit to making Lovelace cards for the MXM-A embedded PCs that are still used in industry - there's Ampere MXM-A GPUs (A500, A1000, A2000), it would be strange to stop here unless a better socketed GPU standard was proposed

But unfortunately they will keep the same drawback and sale policies as the actual cards:

1. No ability to buy them as an individual;

2. Proprietary form factor

3. Expensive AF;

3. No EDP support only optimus);

 

[Reaversword]

What's up guys, new in the forum, Clevo biased customer, currently dreaming with grab a x170 with a good price (since the machine haves 2 years old), unable to trust in the powerful+thin combo (it only can finish in burning components, broken laptop).

 

So, I have a question for you:

 

What do you think about the new Clevo x370sn?

 

Here the only video I've found about:

 

 

[Clamibot]

11 hours ago, Reaversword said:

What's up guys, new in the forum, Clevo biased customer, currently dreaming with grab a x170 with a good price (since the machine haves 2 years old), unable to trust in the powerful+thin combo (it only can finish in burning components, broken laptop).

 

So, I have a question for you:

 

What do you think about the new Clevo x370sn?

 

Here the only video I've found about:

 

 

 

The X370 is an impostor. It's a heavily watered down version of Clevo's previous DTRs. I wouldn't even call this thing a real DTR as there is no socketed CPU or GPU. The number of ports has been reduced vs the X170 as well. It's very sad when people think a 7 pound laptop is heavy, because it's not. The 12 pound DTRs of the past weren't particularly heavy either, they just had heft to them. Plus, they could double as workout weights.

 

I'm not sure why Clevo decided to go full BGA. I'm still interested to see how thing thing performs, but I know it would be less satisfying to have than an X170 despite the increased processing power over the X170.

[1610ftw]

16 hours ago, Clamibot said:

 

The X370 is an impostor. It's a heavily watered down version of Clevo's previous DTRs. I wouldn't even call this thing a real DTR as there is no socketed CPU or GPU. The number of ports has been reduced vs the X170 as well. It's very sad when people think a 7 pound laptop is heavy, because it's not. The 12 pound DTRs of the past weren't particularly heavy either, they just had heft to them. Plus, they could double as workout weights.

 

I'm not sure why Clevo decided to go full BGA. I'm still interested to see how thing thing performs, but I know it would be less satisfying to have than an X170 despite the increased processing power over the X170.

 

Imposter - I love it 😄

 

The X370 is lacking so much it isn't funny:

 

socketed CPU? nope

top of the line BGA CPU? nope

socketed GPU? nope

full fat vapor chamber? nope

4 memory slots? nope

4 storage slots? nope

18" screen? nope

 

This generation the X370 could have everything but a socketed GPU which just seems out of reach to Clevo.

Yet they decided to offer none of the things mentioned above - go figure.

 

At least when MSI brought back the Titan they went with top of the line chips, connectivity, memory and storage options and before they just did not have a Titan for I think two generations - that is still disappointing overall because of the lack of thickness and modularity but at least they made an effort in some areas. Same with Dell - they bothced the heatsink design in the 7770 but at least it has a socketed GPU and a full complement of drives and up to 128GB memory even though that is only available at extortionary prices. Clevo on the other hand seems to be happy with only carrying over the X name and adding a third SSD slot.

 

LOL @ 12lbs not being heavy, in fact we now have an issue with carry on luggage in planes imposing ever lower weight limits and on long flights you could not take a big DTR out as it would occupy more width than we usually get on planes these days - can't have it all I guess 😄 

 

 

[Reaversword]

What can I say... "Impostor", I love it, I consider it baptismed.

 

I can understand people complains about weight, even about battery lasting, but they don't realize this kind of machines are not for them, not are designed for "take notes" over the whole morning draining slowly the battery.

Personally, put in my backpack and go anywhere. (But I don't usually travel by plane, don't know about weight constraints!)

 

Which is a bit more difficult for me to understand, is about Clevo forgetting about their customers that really are looking for a big heavy machine able to offer all the power that components can offer without lose performance thanks to a heavy reliable cooling system, something to work on 3d, Maya, 3dsMax, Blender, Vray, MaxwellRender, or even Unreal Engine 5 constantly, all over the whole day without failures, like a solid rock.

 

Clevo X170 was designed for socket 1200, including 10nth and 11nth Intel generations, and then, for socket 1700 with 12nth and 13nth gens they choose to move to other model... but lack from a "beast model" for this two gens...

 

Without Mxm versions of Gpus, Clevo X170 missed 30xx Tis, and the same for 40xx.

 

So, Clevo are not able to create their own Mxm versions? they need the nvidia permit? I don't know...

 

Should we expect for 14nth Intel gen, so new socket + rtx 40xxTis a new "beast model" (able to deal with heat to not have thermal throttling)?. I don't know. But although... I should be a bad person for this... I expect all this powerful-thin machines for this 2023 start to failure and get burned over all this year, and everybody learn the lesson about powerful-heavy cooled machines, or middlePowerful-thin machines, but not powerful&thin.

 

All I know is, I refuse to acquire X370sn (And I NEED something). Not even tongfangs water cooled. It looks great, but... If I'm paying for a laptop, is a laptop and no more. Laptop + Waterpump is not exactly laptop, for not to talk about have some liquid in a backpack inside a computer.

I prefer of course 32 threads of Raptor Lake, but not if it will last 2 years, for that, I go with X170 and 10nth gen with 20 cores.

 

Big brick Im sorry, just sharing my thoughts and trying to constrast how much I'm wrong in the opinion from others that understand why x370 is not a flagship in any way.

Clevo 7200, p170hm, p170em, Clevo 775, Clevo P870 and this last Clevo X170. THAT was flagships, that is what I expect from the Clevo flagship.

[Clamibot]

8 hours ago, Reaversword said:

What can I say... "Impostor", I love it, I consider it baptismed.

 

I can understand people complains about weight, even about battery lasting, but they don't realize this kind of machines are not for them, not are designed for "take notes" over the whole morning draining slowly the battery.

Personally, put in my backpack and go anywhere. (But I don't usually travel by plane, don't know about weight constraints!)

 

Which is a bit more difficult for me to understand, is about Clevo forgetting about their customers that really are looking for a big heavy machine able to offer all the power that components can offer without lose performance thanks to a heavy reliable cooling system, something to work on 3d, Maya, 3dsMax, Blender, Vray, MaxwellRender, or even Unreal Engine 5 constantly, all over the whole day without failures, like a solid rock.

 

Clevo X170 was designed for socket 1200, including 10nth and 11nth Intel generations, and then, for socket 1700 with 12nth and 13nth gens they choose to move to other model... but lack from a "beast model" for this two gens...

 

Without Mxm versions of Gpus, Clevo X170 missed 30xx Tis, and the same for 40xx.

 

So, Clevo are not able to create their own Mxm versions? they need the nvidia permit? I don't know...

 

Should we expect for 14nth Intel gen, so new socket + rtx 40xxTis a new "beast model" (able to deal with heat to not have thermal throttling)?. I don't know. But although... I should be a bad person for this... I expect all this powerful-thin machines for this 2023 start to failure and get burned over all this year, and everybody learn the lesson about powerful-heavy cooled machines, or middlePowerful-thin machines, but not powerful&thin.

 

All I know is, I refuse to acquire X370sn (And I NEED something). Not even tongfangs water cooled. It looks great, but... If I'm paying for a laptop, is a laptop and no more. Laptop + Waterpump is not exactly laptop, for not to talk about have some liquid in a backpack inside a computer.

I prefer of course 32 threads of Raptor Lake, but not if it will last 2 years, for that, I go with X170 and 10nth gen with 20 cores.

 

Big brick Im sorry, just sharing my thoughts and trying to constrast how much I'm wrong in the opinion from others that understand why x370 is not a flagship in any way.

Clevo 7200, p170hm, p170em, Clevo 775, Clevo P870 and this last Clevo X170. THAT was flagships, that is what I expect from the Clevo flagship.

 

What you described is pretty much how I treat laptops as well. The kind of laptop I like is a laptop with desktop performance, but is easily transportable. I'm not looking to constantly be carrying a laptop in one hand, which is what reviewer videos annoyingly do for a wide range of laptops. Who does that? I don't know anyone who walks around with a laptop in one hand while trying to use it!

 

I don't mind if other people want thin and light laptops. That's their preference and I respect that. What I don't appreciate is that all the options I like are going away while people that like thin and light keep getting more options. I thought the whole reason for consumer choice was so that everyone could have a type of computer suited for them. There is no one size fits all solution since everyone's needs and wants are different.

 

To be fair, I no longer NEED a laptop since I graduated college a little more than a year ago, but I still really like the portability of a laptop, so I still want one. A desktop is fine for my needs, but I really like being able to take my computer everywhere with me. Even the X170 is more portable than the most portable small form factor desktop. The X170 being a laptop is also an all in one computer: it has a built in battery, screen, keyboard, and trackpad (although I pretty much exclusively use mice). With a SFF desktop, you have to carry around those pieces as extra items. Even the chonkiest of laptops are still more convenient to carry around.

 

There are times when having a laptop is really useful despite me not needing one anymore, because there are still times I have to travel. Such occasions are rare, but I'm really glad I have a beefy laptop when such occasions arise. I'm sad to see my options dwindiling away.

[Reaversword]

After more than ten years enjoying big Clevo flagship laptops, I'm absolutely used to a laptop.

 

Is winter? great!, Il'l move my laptop to livingroom where we have the fireplace, I can share that moments with family and friends, and maybe I'm tunning materiales in Unreal or modelling in Maya (what I can't do is programming with people around).

 

Is summer? great, my little children want to go to the inflatable pool, no problem, grab my laptop, put in under my... umbrella? sun-umbrella?, and keep working while watching them to make myself sure they're ok.

 

I abhor desktop. Absolutely. Everybody tells me, do you work with 3d?, you need a desktop!, yes portable desktop as the X170, no other thing.

 

So, why the best we have is.. "that", x370, absolutely impostor (for not talk about x270 which is directly a shame).

 

I really hope things change for Rocket Lake and at least Clevo, don't forget about us, because I absolutely refuse to use a desktop in a wonerdul prison-room as I did in the past.

[aldarxt]

I don't understand the manufacturer's myself, combining DTR and Tablet mentality to come out with the skinny laptop they claim is Powerful. Just make a tablet for those on the go and the Real DTR for the Performance Enthusiast's. They seem to be trying to grab both groups and failing to satisfy both.

[1610ftw]

3 hours ago, aldarxt said:

I don't understand the manufacturer's myself, combining DTR and Tablet mentality to come out with the skinny laptop they claim is Powerful. Just make a tablet for those on the go and the Real DTR for the Performance Enthusiast's. They seem to be trying to grab both groups and failing to satisfy both.

 

They are relatively powerful given their weight and volume but what about people who would be willing to carry 9 or 10 lbs from time to time?

Clevo was the last manufacturer with a ca. 10lbs laptop (X170) but that was it. These days the problem with Clevo is that they do not have enough pull with Intel to support socketed CPUs for multiple generations and as for Nvidia they do not let Clevo have any MXM modules any more.

 

I am pretty sure that Dell would have enough clout to build an Alienware with a socketed CPU that could be supported for more than one generation and the same goes for MSI and Asus at least as they also manufacture motherboards and not just laptops.

 

Yet nobody seems to be moving in that direction - makes me wonder how bad those GX800, GT83 and Alienware 18 sales really were...

[Clamibot]

1 hour ago, 1610ftw said:

 

They are relatively powerful given their weight and volume but what about people who would be willing to carry 9 or 10 lbs from time to time?

Clevo was the last manufacturer with a ca. 10lbs laptop (X170) but that was it. These days the problem with Clevo is that they do not have enough pull with Intel to support socketed CPUs for multiple generations and as for Nvidia they do not let Clevo have any MXM modules any more.

 

I am pretty sure that Dell would have enough clout to build an Alienware with a socketed CPU that could be supported for more than one generation and the same goes for MSI and Asus at least as they also manufacture motherboards and not just laptops.

 

Yet nobody seems to be moving in that direction - makes me wonder how bad those GX800, GT83 and Alienware 18 sales really were...

 

And then the same companies will complain that the sales were bad and nobody wants these types of laptops anymore. It's like EA saying nobody plays singleplayer games anymore so they focus on multiplayer.

 

No, it's not that nobody cares anymore. People still care, it's just that people don't want to buy bad products. Make a good product, make sure people know about it, and it will sell. You're creating a self fufilling prophecy by creating a bad product and pointing out that sales sucked, so nobody wants products in that product class anymore.

[aldarxt]

3 hours ago, Clamibot said:

 

And then the same companies will complain that the sales were bad and nobody wants these types of laptops anymore. It's like EA saying nobody plays singleplayer games anymore so they focus on multiplayer.

 

No, it's not that nobody cares anymore. People still care, it's just that people don't want to buy bad products. Make a good product, make sure people know about it, and it will sell. You're creating a self fufilling prophecy by creating a bad product and pointing out that sales sucked, so nobody wants products in that product class anymore.

I think they just want to make as much $$$$$ before the big switch over to Quantum

[1610ftw]

6 hours ago, Clamibot said:

 

And then the same companies will complain that the sales were bad and nobody wants these types of laptops anymore. It's like EA saying nobody plays singleplayer games anymore so they focus on multiplayer.

 

No, it's not that nobody cares anymore. People still care, it's just that people don't want to buy bad products. Make a good product, make sure people know about it, and it will sell. You're creating a self fufilling prophecy by creating a bad product and pointing out that sales sucked, so nobody wants products in that product class anymore.

 

I am not so sure that enough people care but it is hard to say really.

 

A good test case would be one of the above mentioned companies putting out a model with a socketed GPU and graphics options that go down to the RTX 4060 accompanied by at least a nice priced QHD+ 18" screen. Add in 4 slots each for storage and memory and top notch connectivity and people may actually buy in bigger number as now they can finally afford such a laptop as it is not priced at 4k or more.

 

Dell was mostly pretty good with offering more options but Asus and MSI were quite bad and not at all willing to offer lesser graphics or CPU options to save some money. 

[VEGGIM]

14 hours ago, 1610ftw said:

 

I am not so sure that enough people care but it is hard to say really.

 

A good test case would be one of the above mentioned companies putting out a model with a socketed GPU and graphics options that go down to the RTX 4060 accompanied by at least a nice priced QHD+ 18" screen. Add in 4 slots each for storage and memory and top notch connectivity and people may actually buy in bigger number as now they can finally afford such a laptop as it is not priced at 4k or more.

 

Dell was mostly pretty good with offering more options but Asus and MSI were quite bad and not at all willing to offer lesser graphics or CPU options to save some money. 

One issue though. whats stopping then said companies by doing things like this.

The dgpu upgrade has to be at a price where it would porbably just better to get a new laptop by then. Also theres no standard shape. Its been shown that even if you use a connector, they can change the shape of the card slightly. Making the price of the thing iwlling to the oem. The only connector that won't seem to have this problem is dgff. due to it using pins. 

Heck for it to become more standard, one would have to be donated to PCI-SIG. 99% with the exception of clevo or eurocom or tongfang or alienware, or not a workstation laptop, 99% of the time socketable gpus would be used mainly for easier manufacturing costs. As you could make the same mobo for the same laptop and not have to make one for each factor. But it would definetly be charged unfairly since upgradability is seen as a premium.

[1610ftw]

12 minutes ago, VEGGIM said:

One issue though. whats stopping then said companies by doing things like this.

The dgpu upgrade has to be at a price where it would porbably just better to get a new laptop by then. Also theres no standard shape. Its been shown that even if you use a connector, they can change the shape of the card slightly. Making the price of the thing iwlling to the oem. The only connector that won't seem to have this problem is dgff. due to it using pins. 

Heck for it to become more standard, one would have to be donated to PCI-SIG. 99% with the exception of clevo or eurocom or tongfang or alienware, or not a workstation laptop, 99% of the time socketable gpus would be used mainly for easier manufacturing costs. As you could make the same mobo for the same laptop and not have to make one for each factor. But it would definetly be charged unfairly since upgradability is seen as a premium.

 

That was meant to be a soldered GPU as I just cannot see socketed happen at the moment and as you say prices more than likely would be so high that almost nobody would be interested. Options down to at least the 4070 and possibly 4060 would be nice for people who mainly want a flagship CPU in a portable form factor and often have to buy lots of memory, storage and/or GPU / screen just to get the CPU - it is ridiculous.

 

If GPU manufacturers would sell their GPUs like Intel and AMD sell their CPUs then things would have the potential to be a lot more flexible. Not likely to happen any time soon but that would be very cool.

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VEGGIM]

3 hours ago, 1610ftw said:

 

 

 

If GPU manufacturers would sell their GPUs like Intel and AMD sell their CPUs then things would have the potential to be a lot more flexible. Not likely to happen any time soon but that would be very cool.

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please explain what you mean I have  no idea what you mean by selling gpus the same as cpus? Since cpus have alot more variants than gpus.

[Reaversword]

I think 1610ftw is talking about if Nvidia or Amd would sell their Mxm graphic cards for laptops as they do on desktops, and the people would be able to just buy a new graphic card, insert it their motherboard gpu socket and get it working.

 

But nvidia killed the mxm format (so, soldered to motherboard), and ever worse, all that mxm overpriced cards are constrained by vBios to the brands they're produced for. You can't simply grab an mxm card from Alienware and put it inside a Clevo machine. So, a little bit apple-like way for every laptop. It's upgradable, yes, but buying it to your brand by the price they say, absolutely constrained.

 

Still no idea what I'm gonna do. I don't want support this 2023 powerful-thin-thermal throttling generation, deny to buy desktop, refuse to buy Clevo x170 at their original price now after 2 gens. I'm blocked. And the time to start working with Unreal Engine 5 & raytracing is now.

[Clamibot]

7 hours ago, Reaversword said:

I think 1610ftw is talking about if Nvidia or Amd would sell their Mxm graphic cards for laptops as they do on desktops, and the people would be able to just buy a new graphic card, insert it their motherboard gpu socket and get it working.

 

But nvidia killed the mxm format (so, soldered to motherboard), and ever worse, all that mxm overpriced cards are constrained by vBios to the brands they're produced for. You can't simply grab an mxm card from Alienware and put it inside a Clevo machine. So, a little bit apple-like way for every laptop. It's upgradable, yes, but buying it to your brand by the price they say, absolutely constrained.

 

Still no idea what I'm gonna do. I don't want support this 2023 powerful-thin-thermal throttling generation, deny to buy desktop, refuse to buy Clevo x170 at their original price now after 2 gens. I'm blocked. And the time to start working with Unreal Engine 5 & raytracing is now.

 

Maybe this will interest you then: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275480705689?epid=13056675991&hash=item4023edfa99:g:saQAAOSwgaxjNjcz&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4IlCNM0VPjO6z7nVNIZO1KlhpeINPo4yDXkxNWYhEzbUjx0SB4Mz%2BqlK7Z%2BcGSQKPlYyZM3Qv%2BwJndDNqFNhBJeKxuPF5%2FPfmSlOeg49FtDHd6MdRFSvcq%2FaKRKnd%2FD0bDGP4VXaSebnd0lZgv%2BkTk%2ByIHNPX8zb1m1%2FgT34%2F9OUH8D4AbEGmXLWT4%2FzC3HucHGJTETKNeK5poPngZ%2F0wGD8safu%2BqAIZkJ1nagPgBoUHhsPD2sz9yuYWnHoGarLOeFiWmX9uX2Qeay29H%2B2xdV6ZfmZQVRUQkVIsBIXZ4mG|tkp%3ABFBMoO7tvMFh

 

I soooo wish I had gotten this laptop for $1200 in it's high end configuration. It has cosmetic damage to it, which is why it still hasn't sold despite this listing being up for months. If you're ok with the cosmetic damage and don't care or are willing to put in some money to repair it, this is an amazing deal.

 

Best part, the seller says this unit has Premamod on it! I was seriously considering buying this as a secondary machine, but you can have dibs since you're looking for a laptop as your main machine right now.

[Reaversword]

C'mon!, only shipments to the States!. This is the third one I see with shipments only the States. What a nightmare...

[1610ftw]

14 hours ago, VEGGIM said:

Please explain what you mean I have  no idea what you mean by selling gpus the same as cpus? Since cpus have alot more variants than gpus.

 

I mean just sell a chip that goes into a socket like with AMD and Intel desktop CPUs.

 

Obviously this isn't going to happen in desktops but it would be a perfect solution for laptops to widen choices for the users and drastically reduce SKUs for the manufacturers