Precision 7670 & 7770 pre-release discussion (Alder Lake)

[Conan11]

7 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

See 5560 and 5570 heatsink / fan images (from the service manual).  It doesn’t look like 5570 got that much of a cooling upgrade compared to some of the other systems.  (Doesn’t look like DOO fans.)

5560

5570

 

Thanks. I've been looking at these pictures, but I'm not sure if they show the exact models? For instance, there are some differences between various photos of various components for the same model.

 

5570 page https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/workstations-isv-certified/new-precision-5570-workstation/spd/precision-15-5570-laptop/xctop5570usvp?view=configurations mentions DOO.
5570 spec sheet: https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/en-us/products/workstations/technical-support/precision-5570-spec-sheet.pdf mentions DOO with liquid polymer blades

 

But if DOO consists of two fans placed next to each other, none of the 5570 photos or diagrams I could find shows it.

 

This is a bit... confusing.

[Aaron44126]

Precision 3470 support page now has drivers, manuals, etc.  It appears to share the BIOS with the Latitude 5431.  The order page is still broken.

[Edit] 1 hour later, Precision 3470 order page has details about the system but it as listed as "currently unavailable".

[Edit] 2.5 hours later, Precision 3470 is now available to order.

 

———

 

8 hours ago, Conan11 said:

But if DOO consists of two fans placed next to each other, none of the 5570 photos or diagrams I could find shows it.

 

This is a bit... confusing.

 

DOO doesn't have to be two fans next to each other like we see in 7X70.  It basically means that the air going out of the fan goes in two (opposite) directions.  "Normal" laptop fans suck air in from the bottom and push it out the back of the system.  A DOO fan sends air out of the back of the system, and also in the opposite direction to get some internal air circulation going.

 

Now, I might have been wrong about the fans in the photo above not being DOO.  Apologies for misleading there.  These just don't look like the 7X70 fans.

 

I can say that DOO is not new to Precision 5000 series with this XX70 generation.  Here's a promo photo of the cooling system for last year's Precision 5760 with DOO fans.  (Not sure where this photo came from.  It was previously posted by @yslalan and doesn't appear in the 5760 spec sheet.)

 

...And a heatsink photo from the 5760 service manual.

 

If Dell is talking up DOO in the Precision 5570 then it likely has it.  (But, probably, the Precision 5560 had it, and quite possibly older generations as well.)  I can't quickly find a photo of the fans for either system with a good angle to confirm that there is an opening/"hole" on the "bottom" side for air outlet.

 

[Edit] Photos of the rear of the Precision 5560/5570 show an exhaust vent all of the way across the back which is a pretty good indication that DOO is in play.

  

8 hours ago, Conan11 said:

Thanks. I've been looking at these pictures, but I'm not sure if they show the exact models? For instance, there are some differences between various photos of various components for the same model.

 

There will be different versions of some components.  For instance, the heatsink is different depending on whether you order the system with a discrete GPU, or with integrated graphics only.  Sometimes they get mixed and matched a bit in the support material.

[AL123]

2 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

Precision 3470 support page now has drivers, manuals, etc.  It appears to share the BIOS with the Latitude 5431.  The order page is still broken.

[Edit] 1 hour later, Precision 3470 order page has details about the system but it as listed as "currently unavailable".

[Edit] 2.5 hours later, Precision 3470 is now available to order.

 

———

 

 

DOO doesn't have to be two fans next to each other like we see in 7X70.  It basically means that the air going out of the fan goes in two (opposite) directions.  "Normal" laptop fans suck air in from the bottom and push it out the back of the system.  A DOO fan sends air out of the back of the system, and also in the opposite direction to get some internal air circulation going.

 

Now, I might have been wrong about the fans in the photo above not being DOO.  Apologies for misleading there.  These just don't look like the 7X70 fans.

 

I can say that DOO is not new to Precision 5000 series with this XX70 generation.  Here's a promo photo of the cooling system for last year's Precision 5760 with DOO fans.  (Not sure where this photo came from.  It was previously posted by @yslalan and doesn't appear in the 5760 spec sheet.)

 

...And a heatsink photo from the 5760 service manual.

 

If Dell is talking up DOO in the Precision 5570 then it likely has it.  (But, probably, the Precision 5560 had it, and quite possibly older generations as well.)  I can't quickly find a photo of the fans for either system with a good angle to confirm that there is an opening/"hole" on the "bottom" side for air outlet.

 

[Edit] Photos of the rear of the Precision 5560/5570 show an exhaust vent all of the way across the back which is a pretty good indication that DOO is in play.

  

 

There will be different versions of some components.  For instance, the heatsink is different depending on whether you order the system with a discrete GPU, or with integrated graphics only.  Sometimes they get mixed and matched a bit in the support material.

This old pdf has details from when DOO fans were first used in the 5750. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/en-us/products/workstations/industry-market/precision-thermals-brief-042320.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwihr6e65ev3AhVIZcAKHeKxA1kQFnoECAYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0Udd75G9l5LHwLjxo8CuWp

 

 

Interesting also that HP have gone with vapour chambers in their equivilentd to the 7670 and 7770 (Fury G9 range) it would good to hear more technical details on the upgrades dell have made and how that has affected power limits.

 

 

[txhousa]

This is the cooling system design for X17, a variant of DOO philosophy ?

 

[serpro69]

44 minutes ago, AL123 said:

Interesting also that HP have gone with vapour chambers in their equivilentd to the 7670 and 7770 (Fury G9 range) it would good to hear more technical details on the upgrades dell have made and how that has affected power limits.

 

The Fury G9 does look interesting. I myself am still more inclined to go with Dell than HP though.

I wish the new Alienware got Alder Lake HX CPUs and maybe some extra SSD slots. I would definitely consider that one.

[Aaron44126]

2 hours ago, txhousa said:

This is the cooling system design for X17, a variant of DOO philosophy ?

 

The four-fan design is really cool (ha....).  And it looks like the two front fans are indeed DOO, sending air into the middle of the chassis.  (The rear fans are also dual-output, but not dual-opposite-output, sending air out two sides of the chassis.  Precision 7X30/7X40 also did this.)  Doesn't look like there is room for any more SSD slots.  Everything is a trade-off when dealing with space constraints like this in a laptop.

 

Are any other laptop manufacturers doing DOO?  Looks like Dell has a patent on it.  I can't imagine that it would reduce CPU/GPU temperature very much, but I can see how it would help with surface temperature and maybe other things like the PCH which are often not well-cooled by the heatsink (and upcoming PCIe5 NVMe drives which will need active cooling).

 

Anyway, I have multiple reasons for sticking with Dell.  They've always treated me well from a support standpoint and I have no idea what HP support is like, so part of it is "stick with what you know".  Dell seems to be doing more to push the thermal envelope.  We're a Dell shop at work so Precision is the only option for me there (though, the upcoming 7770 will be a personal purchase, not a work one).  I compared 7760 vs Fury 17 a few weeks back and found that HP's had a higher cost and higher lead time.  (Maybe you can go through a sales rep to get a price more in line with Dell?)

 

I saw @AL123 mention a little while back a figure of 280W of power for the ZBook Fury G9, but the spec sheet shows that it just comes with a 230W PSU (max, there are also 150W and 200W options listed).  The 280W was the potential output of the Thunderbolt G4 Dock.  I'm rather doubting that the Fury G9 will take full advantage of that, but maybe some of their gaming systems would.  Best I can tell, they are only offering a 16" version of the ZBook Fury this time?  Physical size is pretty similar to the 7670.  The spec sheet shows 15.6" (16:9) or 16" (16:10) display options for the same model, interesting.  Looks like it does support four NVMe drives.

[txhousa]

47 minutes ago, serpro69 said:

 

The Fury G9 does look interesting. I myself am still more inclined to go with Dell than HP though.

I wish the new Alienware got Alder Lake HX CPUs and maybe some extra SSD slots. I would definitely consider that one.

I see Fury G9 is a step back compared to G8. The lid hinge blocks the exhaust air vent. It will blow all hot air to the screen. It is quite similar to my Zbook Studio G3 and I really hate this design. 

G8:

G9: 

 

[Conan11]

Ah, that's helpful. Thanks everyone!

 

Yes, from what I read Alienware x series have very good cooling in terms of amounts of heat it can remove, but they also have reputation of being loud.

[AL123]

41 minutes ago, txhousa said:

I see Fury G9 is a step back compared to G8. The lid hinge blocks the exhaust air vent. It will blow all hot air to the screen. It is quite similar to my Zbook Studio G3 and I really hate this design. 

G8:

G9: 

 

Yeh I've not tested HP in a couple of generations they seem to be pushing Dell more but I can't say I care for their designs look rather chunky and you make a good point on the cooling atleast by what we can tell from the pictures it doesn't look ideal!

. When I last tested the 15inch versions the Quadro RTX 3000 was running alot lower clocks than the Precision 7540

 

I think Hps lack popularity on this forum  is reflected in the market from what I head from customers and my dell contacts but then they would say that! 

 

That they are rationalising down to a single 16 inch model may indicate they didn't have the volume to sustain competing at the very top end, larger 17.3 inch chassis is always going to allow for more powerful components in my opinion. 

 

 

[AL123]

1 hour ago, Aaron44126 said:

 

The four-fan design is really cool.  And it looks like the two front fans are indeed DOO, sending air into the middle of the chassis.  (The rear fans are also dual-output, but not dual-opposite-output, sending air out two sides of the chassis.  Precision 7X30/7X40 also did this.)  Doesn't look like there is room for any more SSD slots.  Everything is a trade-off when dealing with space constraints like this in a laptop.

 

Are any other laptop manufacturers doing DOO?  Looks like Dell has a patent on it.  I can't imagine that it would reduce CPU/GPU temperature very much, but I can see how it would help with surface temperature and maybe other things like the PCH which are often not well-cooled by the heatsink (and upcoming PCIe5 NVMe drives which will need active cooling).

 

Anyway, I have multiple reasons for sticking with Dell.  They've always treated me well from a support standpoint and I have no idea what HP support is like, so part of it is "stick with what you know".  Dell seems to be doing more to push the thermal envelope.  We're a Dell shop at work so Precision is the only option for me there (though, the upcoming 7770 will be a personal purchase, not a work one).  I compared 7760 vs Fury 17 a few weeks back and found that HP's had a higher cost and higher lead time.  (Maybe you can go through a sales rep to get a price more in line with Dell?)

 

I saw @AL123 mention a little while back a figure of 280W of power for the ZBook Fury G9, but the spec sheet shows that it just comes with a 230W PSU (max, there are also 150W and 200W options listed).  The 280W was the potential output of the Thunderbolt G4 Dock.  I'm rather doubting that the Fury G9 will take full advantage of that, but maybe some of their gaming systems would.  Best I can tell, they are only offering a 16" version of the ZBook Fury this time?  Physical size is pretty similar to the 7670.  The spec sheet shows 15.6" (16:9) or 16" (16:10) display options for the same model, interesting.  Looks like it does support four NVMe drives.

Good catch I must have read that 280W figure on the Dock but given I didn't even notice they have ditched the 17.3 inch form factor clearly I was skimming it! 

 

I noticed Another (Sponsored) but interesting article on 16inch form factor from Lenovo. @Dell-Mano_Glove to see this kind of in depth info out their for the Dell range soon, I'm still confident Dell have the best engineering, performance and support (Pro support) and don't need to pay for coverage! but for engineering geeks like me we love to know all the R&D that goes into these Precision systems hoping for some articles/videos soon! 

https://develop3d.com/sponsored/lenovo-thinkpad-p16-from-elegant-concept-to-robust-reality/

 

[rahasyavadi]

Edit: I was mistaken: there is no longer a 17" ZBook Fury for G9. My observation was thus illusory.

Edited May 19, 2022 by rahasyavadi
error

[Aaron44126]

13 minutes ago, rahasyavadi said:

I am surprised that in the category of full-featured 17" mobile workstations, HP has beat Dell in reinstating 16:10 screens.

 

Where is that coming from?  Does HP have a 17" workstation for this generation?  The ZBook Fury G9 and ZBook Studio G9 are both 16" only (same screen size as Precision 7670 which is also 16:10).  At least Dell is offering 17" 16:10 Precision 5770.

 

Looks like Lenovo is also dropping 17", with P16 being available in 16" only.

[Conan11]

2 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

Are any other laptop manufacturers doing DOO?  Looks like Dell has a patent on it.

 

Indeed, this is what's written in the document linked by AL123:

 

DOO fans, which are a Dell proprietary design (patent number: 10,584,717 with further patents pending), improve on traditional fans by increasing the performance of the airflow system. The DOO design increases the size of the fan blades relative to the fan body, improving efficiency. The blades are made of liquid crystal polymer (LCP), which allowed designers to reduce blade thickness and pack in more fan blades to increase air flow per rotation.

[Aaron44126]

New NVIDIA driver posted by Dell for Precision 7X10 and up.  Version 512.18.

https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-us/drivers/driversdetails?driverid=f8yn2

(Cool that they're still supporting the full range of systems.  Precision systems older than 7X10 have Kepler GPUs [or older], which NVIDIA doesn't offer updates for anymore.)

 

We have some lines here showing support for NVIDIA GPUs in the Precision 7670 and 7770.  Here, we have subsystem ID 0B2A = Precision 7670 and subsystem ID 0B2B = Precision 7770.  This re-confirms that GeForce RTX 3080 Ti is coming to both systems (or at least it was planned to).

 

NVIDIA_DEV.2420.0B2A.1028 = "NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti Laptop GPU"
NVIDIA_DEV.2420.0B2B.1028 = "NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti Laptop GPU"
NVIDIA_DEV.2438.0B2A.1028 = "NVIDIA RTX A5500 Laptop GPU"
NVIDIA_DEV.2438.0B2B.1028 = "NVIDIA RTX A5500 Laptop GPU"

NVIDIA_DEV.24B9.0B2A.1028 = "NVIDIA RTX A3000 12GB Laptop GPU"
NVIDIA_DEV.24B9.0B2B.1028 = "NVIDIA RTX A3000 12GB Laptop GPU"
NVIDIA_DEV.24BA.0B2A.1028 = "NVIDIA RTX A4500 Laptop GPU"
NVIDIA_DEV.24BA.0B2B.1028 = "NVIDIA RTX A4500 Laptop GPU"

NVIDIA_DEV.25B9.0B2A.1028 = "NVIDIA RTX A1000 Laptop GPU"
NVIDIA_DEV.25B9.0B2B.1028 = "NVIDIA RTX A1000 Laptop GPU"

NVIDIA_DEV.25BA.0B2A.1028 = "NVIDIA RTX A2000 8GB Laptop GPU"

 

(I guess this is interesting to me because I used to do INF mods.)

 

Current drivers posted on NVIDIA's site do not support the 7X70, but I expect that will likely change with the next release.

[serpro69]

21 hours ago, AL123 said:

can't say I care for their designs look

 

Totally agree about this, it's as ugly as they come...
The new Lenovo P16 on the other hand, that one looks (exterior design) quite nice and could potentially be a worthy competition to Dell for those considering 16". Definitely a step up from previous designs IMO.

[AL123]

4 hours ago, serpro69 said:

 

Totally agree about this, it's as ugly as they come...
The new Lenovo P16 on the other hand, that one looks (exterior design) quite nice and could potentially be a worthy competition to Dell for those considering 16". Definitely a step up from previous designs IMO.

Yeh a bit of competition is good, certainly looks more purpose built and thought out than in the past and if the power limits are sustained and accurate then should compete performance Wise. I believe dell are still way out in the lead in the workstation market but don't want them to get complacent!

 

I do know a large corp who switched from Dell Precision to Lenovo for shall we say.... non technical reasons and well their actual users who I worked alongside didn't have a good word to say about them. Those that could clung onto their precisions as long as they could even though they were older kit, keyboards were even a major gripe Iirc.

 

 

That was a few years back, but without wanting to turn this into a political discussion for me also a big factor of the brands who have taken a stand in this current unstable world we find ourselves in. For me those will be the ones who deserve to do well and get my business. 

 

Same as companies that are still on my don't buy list for the way they treated customers during covid, mainly in the tourism sector, the bad ones didn't get my summer holiday money this year! 

[Pultzar]

What are the odds that the Sabrent 8tb drives will work in the 7000 series?  They have a PCIe 4 variant that is shipping soon.

[Aaron44126]

2 hours ago, Pultzar said:

What are the odds that the Sabrent 8tb drives will work in the 7000 series?  They have a PCIe 4 variant that is shipping soon.

Planning on it.  I have an 8TB (SATA) running in a Precision 7510 with no issues.  Never heard of an NVMe drive that did not work in 7000-series Precision…. But we don’t know for sure until someone tries.

 

I have three Sabrent Rocket 4 Plus 8TB (PCIe4) drives ready to go in the 7770.  (Bought them at launch in April because I was afraid that the price would inflate and they’d go out of stock… which is exactly what happened.)

[Pultzar]

18 minutes ago, Aaron44126 said:

Planning on it.  I have an 8TB (SATA) running in a Precision 7510 with no issues.  Never heard of an NVMe drive that did not work in 7000-series Precision…. But we don’t know for sure until someone tries.

 

I have three Sabrent Rocket 4 Plus 8TB (PCIe4) drives ready to go in the 7770.  (Bought them at launch in April because I was afraid that the price would inflate and they’d go out of stock… which is exactly what happened.)

 

I'm thinking of 4TB for the os/app/cache drive and then 3x8tb for my data portion.

[Aaron44126]

5 hours ago, Pultzar said:

I'm thinking of 4TB for the os/app/cache drive and then 3x8tb for my data portion.

Same for me, but just 2TB for the OS/system drive.  (I prefer Samsung when available and have a Samsung 980 Pro standing by for this as well.  I don't have enough apps and stuff to even fill up 1TB.)  The 8TB drives will go into a RAID 0 array for one giant volume.

 

[Edit]

Noticed that Sabrent Rocket 4 Plus 8TB will be available at Amazon on June 6.  If you want one, consider buying it now.  Even though it says that these drives are available for pre-order, they did sell a batch through Amazon, on the exact same page, back in early April.  They were out of stock after a week or two.  I don't think that Sabrent is producing these in large volume.  Granted, compatibility with Precision 7X70 is not yet assured, so buying one now does incur some risk that you'll have to offload it after the return window is closed, if it doesn't end up working for some reason.

 

(Store4PC is Sabrent's storefront on Amazon.  The drives shipped to me straight from a Sabrent facility in California.  They even have sequential serial numbers...)

[Aaron44126]

The spec sheet links are all broken now.  This includes previous generation spec sheets like for Precision 7760.

 

You can find specs information in the "Setup and Specifications" documents, found on the support page for each system/model.  However, the Precision 7X70 support pages are not live yet.

[Pultzar]

Any thoughts on the 17" 120hz display vs 16" OLED from those who have used both types of tech?

[Aaron44126]

1 hour ago, Pultzar said:

Any thoughts on the 17" 120hz display vs 16" OLED from those who have used both types of tech?

 

OLED has great color and contrast ratio off the charts (compared to any type of LCD panel), with true blacks, and would be great if you do any sort of graphics work or photography or stuff like that.  120 Hz is more like a nicety, unless you are into gaming, I think.  For regular desktop work it would just be allowing smoother scrolling and animations, which some people might not even notice.

 

I'm still sticking with 17"; the panel is not making my decision so much as the slightly increased performance potential from a larger cooling system, and the extra NVMe drive slot.  Though certainly not complaining, the 120 Hz panel was a nice surprise when it was introduced last year; I am into gaming so it'll get some use.  Bonus points if it supports adaptive sync, which is unclear at the moment.

 

If I was choosing based on the panel, I'd go with 16" OLED.  (It's also 16:10 instead of 16:9, another plus.)  Though one uncertainty with OLED is if image retention ("burn-in") will turn into a problem.  It's been claimed that this is no longer an issue, but we don't have anyone who has used the panel for 5+ years to ask about it...

[__starrify__]

14 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

The spec sheet links are all broken now.  This includes previous generation spec sheets like for Precision 7760.

The specs seem to be online again now. E.g.:

- https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/en-us/products/workstations/technical-support/precision-7670-spec-sheet.pdf

- https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/en-us/products/workstations/technical-support/precision-7770-spec-sheet.pdf

I tried as well a few other random locales (en-uk, it-it, zh-cn, ja-jp, etc.) and they seem all working.

 

I'm pretty much unclear of the reason behind, though. Maybe that was when Dell had minor adjustments to the spec sheets?

 

Edited: There seems to be no change, at least for the 7670 spec (en-us) for the checksum remains the same as the file I downloaded a few weeks ago. The last modification date seems to be late April:

$ pdfinfo ~/Downloads/precision-7670-spec-sheet.pdf  | grep -i date
CreationDate:    Wed Apr 13 19:26:58 2022 IST
ModDate:         Fri Apr 29 19:38:37 2022 IST

Edited May 23, 2022 by __starrify__
further info to include

[Aaron44126]

39 minutes ago, __starrify__ said:

The specs seem to be online again now. E.g.:

- https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/en-us/products/workstations/technical-support/precision-7670-spec-sheet.pdf

- https://www.delltechnologies.com/asset/en-us/products/workstations/technical-support/precision-7770-spec-sheet.pdf

 

You are right...

Maybe they were just doing some server work or something and they were offline for a bit?  It was definitely giving me a 404 error late yesterday.  (Just checked using the same bookmark that I had before and it is working now.)

 

Anyway.

I just checked in with a rep to get an ETA on ordering.  Last week they told me "in the coming 2-3 weeks", and the line today is "within the next 2 weeks", so I guess we are still progressing.

 

COMPUTEX is this week.  Some companies like AMD and NVIDIA are making announcements.  I haven't seen anything indicating that Dell will have anything to say, but they could drop some sort of update.  (2019 Precision systems were announced at COMPUTEX.)