Precision 7670 & 7770 pre-release discussion (Alder Lake)

[Ionising_Radiation]

2 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

So, I don't want to sound like I'm going against or belittling your opinions, just adding in my takes:

No worries: I completely understand your position. Now that I read your comment and mine, I'd probably come to the same conclusion too: many of these changes were inevitable, like it or not. I want to respond to some things though...

Dell is still the best at serviceability, no doubt (since when has Apple released service manuals?) but there is always the potential for vendor lock-in (e.g. the Alienware Area-51M DGFF was not upgradeable after the first generation). The CAMM module is a fair bit of a problem. At least Dell is offering an interposer, which is a decent stand-in. However, we all know how expensive memory upgrades are from Dell. Even so, I don't see them moving away, since, like you said, their target demographic for Precisions are businesses with very deep pockets and full, next-business-day support contracts that effectively replace the entire machine to avoid any sort of downtime. 

 

As for clickpads, I think this is very subjective: I hate the 'Force Touch' trackpads on MacBooks. I know and feel my finger hasn't moved when I click: a motor vibrating the trackpad a certain way isn't a good enough substitute for a set of three buttons. 

Speaking of those buttons: I use the middle mouse button a LOT (middle click to close, middle click for new tab, middle click for instant scroll, etc). This is a serious regression for me. 

[Aaron44126]

4 hours ago, Peksha said:

Inventing some new carrier for all the same chips with the same capacity, it is foolish to believe that the size of this module will be less than sodimm with the same number of those de chips. on one CAMM module

 

It's not just physical space of the modules (which is obviously going to be the same... maybe a little less, if they cram those memory modules together as they have done here).  It's also space on the motherboard.  Space for the slots, and for the traces running from the slots to the CPU.  Now, they have it down to one slot instead of four and the slot is right next to the CPU.  Also, not having SODIMMs on both sides of the board allows them to shrink the system height by a few mm.  (There is probably no reason for anything "sticking up" on the "top"/keyboard side of the motherboard at this point.)

[__starrify__]

7 hours ago, yslalan said:

About 8,700 US$ for i9+A3000.

Thanks a lot for the update! 🙂

For this very line.. I for a few seconds thought there was a typo in the number. 🤦‍♀️

 

Edited: And that was merely for the 5xxx series, not even 7xxx. 🤔

[Aaron44126]

Support pages for 3000/5000 seem to be live (with drivers, manuals, etc.).  Here is 5770.

https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-us/product-support/product/precision-17-5770-laptop/overview

 

Systems are not live to order in the US market yet, but it looks like they're working on it.  Precision 5570 is listed but the page is broken.

 

5 hours ago, Ionising_Radiation said:

Speaking of those buttons: I use the middle mouse button a LOT (middle click to close, middle click for new tab, middle click for instant scroll, etc). This is a serious regression for me. 

 

I guess they figure that more and more people are using gestures and would prefer the extra touchpad space over the physical buttons.  I myself do appreciate the two-finger scroll gesture (but I turn off everything else, especially "pinch zoom" which I have activated by accident on a few occasions).  It looks like you can set up Windows to map three-finger or four-finger taps to the middle mouse button.

 

So, this falls into the same category as others...  Just seems like the way things are going (like it or not).

[Aaron44126]

 

11 hours ago, yslalan said:

Precision 5770 and 5570 has been released in China market

About 8,700 US$ for i9+A3000.

 

Now live in the US market.  Not sure what is up with China prices.  5770 i9+A3000 config matching the one here (i.e. FHD, 32GB RAM, 512GB SSD) is $3,917 USD... less than half.

 

ETA seems to be about one month, more or less, depending on the model (May 13-23).

 

I updated the top post with links to the order pages and I'm also adding support pages (en-US).

 

@yslalan was spot on about the Precision 3000/5000 launch date.  Hopefully, the Precision 7000 launch date is also accurate.  ...With Dell staging all of this promo material, I am wondering if Intel's Alder Lake HX announcement is imminent?  (Hoping there is some time between announcement and release of the 7000 series for evaluation + Q&A.)

[Aaron44126]

ASUS has announced this event...

 

I think they blew the lid on the Intel's Tiger Lake H45 announcement date last year with a similar pre-announcement.

 

It may well be the case that Intel announces Alder Lake HX in the morning on May 9 (U.S. time)... then there is this ASUS event (plus new system announcements from several other laptop vendors)... and I guess Precision 7X70 is on sale as soon as the next day?  (No need to wait a few weeks for Intel workstation CPUs to be ready this time...)

[yslalan]

5 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

Not sure what is up with China prices.

🤣, last year my Precision 5760 shown on the web is also about 8,600 USD, the actual price I paid is about half after I contact Dell business support.

[yslalan]

9 hours ago, __starrify__ said:

 And that was merely for the 5xxx series, not even 7xxx. 🤔

To purchase systems with same spec (CPU, GPU, RAM, Screen, Storage), 5xxx is more expensive than 7xxx.

[tally]

20 hours ago, yslalan said:

🤣, last year my Precision 5760 shown on the web is also about 8,600 USD, the actual price I paid is about half after I contact Dell business support.

how did you get that many discount? 

[iieeann]

I am interested to know too

[yslalan]

14 hours ago, tally said:

how did you get that many discount? 

The Dell sales representative gave me that discount directly as I asked him/her to give me the quoted price based on my given specs. I even didn't haggle over the price.

The product is really over-priced (Double), they assumed that you will contact with Dell rep and get the discount. This really makes the consumer think the discount is huge.

"Amazing discount, take my wallet and swipe my card🙃"

[Aaron44126]

First Alder Lake HX leak from another laptop maker?  Not really sure if it really counts as a leak.  AORUS/Gigabyte has posted information about a new system with an Alder Lake HX CPU.  They didn't make an announcement, as far as I can tell, but the system details were found on their web site.  This one has i9-12900HX and RTX 3080 Ti.

https://www.aorus.com/zh-tw/laptops/AORUS-17X--Intel-12th-Gen/Key-Features

 

ASUS's May 9 event still seems to be the best indication of when Intel may formally announce Alder Lake HX.  (No real chance to see a proper announcement from Dell about these systems until that happens.)

 

[Edit]

Also, Dell today announced an AMD Alienware system with 17" 120Hz dynamic refresh rate 4K display (FreeSync).  I wonder if there's any chance that 7770 uses the same panel...

[meowpressreturn]

On 4/19/2022 at 3:41 PM, Ionising_Radiation said:

As for clickpads, I think this is very subjective: I hate the 'Force Touch' trackpads on MacBooks. I know and feel my finger hasn't moved when I click: a motor vibrating the trackpad a certain way isn't a good enough substitute for a set of three buttons. 

Speaking of those buttons: I use the middle mouse button a LOT (middle click to close, middle click for new tab, middle click for instant scroll, etc). This is a serious regression for me. 

For me, having discrete buttons is the primary reason I've been buying Precisions, and before that Latitudes.

 

I've been using touchpad for 2 decades now because having to move my whole arm half a kilometre away from the keyboard every time I want to shift the pointer is just nah. If I wanted to use mice I'd just get a desktop already. But I have never been able to adjust to buttonless (been deliberately trying on a couple of machines from work and it just ain't happening).

 

The lack of that option is a ghastly horrible nightmare. 

 

Also, what in Zandru's Nine Hells was Dell thinking with that keyboard on the newer machines? Especially those arrow keys and the home/end. Madness!

 

Do they now see Precisions as some kind of Macbookesque hipster bauble people only use to lounge at Starbucks watching Netflix? Isn't this supposed to be a work machine for working people to do work on?

 

I've seen more practical keyboards on a calculator watch from the 1980s. Were I designing it the arrow keys would look like something on a baby toy. I'd make it so you could spot those things from orbit. 

 

So here's a question: are those cable connections for the touchpad a standard thing?

Like, ignoring for a moment the other inconvenient physical practicalities, if a touchpad from, say, a 7540 was attached instead, could the machine recognise it?

[Aaron44126]

I think part of the deal with the keyboard is that Dell really wants to standardize it between their different laptops…. Or at least between all of the business laptops.  And they have succeeded there.  They all have the same layout, with the only variation being whether they have the numeric keypad or not.  So, that might mean that we’ll no longer get a Precision-specific layout like we had with 7X30 and 7X40 (which most agree were perfectly fine).

 

Regarding compatibility between systems, there has been precedent for this working before.  For example, users were able to take the Precision 7X30 keyboard, which had a favorable layout, and install it in Precision 7X10 or 7X20.

 

Really, though, that’s unlikely to work out for either the keyboard or touchpad this time.  Even if the physical cable connections are the same, you’d have to swap out the entire palmrest, and with a chassis refresh, palmrests from other systems will definitely not fit.

We will be able to check out the cables when the service manual is available, and that should be at the same time that the systems become available to order.

 

I’ve been getting by on the keyboard by doing some custom key mapping.

F11/F12 = Home/End

Insert/Calc = F11/F12

Right Alt/Ctrl = PgUp/PgDn

… I do miss full size arrow keys.

 

You can also get used to using the numeric keypad with num lock off which could “solve” all of these keys, but that didn’t work out well for me.  (Some apps will trigger on PgUp/PgDn while I am trying to use it to type in “alt” character codes.)

 

Regarding the touchpad, for users who really like the physical buttons…  Seems like Dell is not interested in going that way right now.  😕

[addabis]

On 4/24/2022 at 1:48 PM, Aaron44126 said:

So, that might mean that we’ll no longer get a Precision-specific layout like we had with 7X30 and 7X40 (which most agree were perfectly fine).

 

I actually jumped the last time from ThinkPads (W and then P) to Dell Precision 7540 because I was angry about "dumbing down" of pro laptops and Dell seemed like a reasonable alternative and I was "sure" they will not do that too. I was really happy because overall (performance, reliability, etc.) I got the best laptop I ever had...  Well, just the next generation it got even more dumb.

I'm a programmer, I need home, end, page up, page down AT THE SAME TIME as F-keys and arrow keys. Are we really such minority users? Not even mentioning those +/- and CE keys...

 

On 4/24/2022 at 8:20 AM, meowpressreturn said:

Do they now see Precisions as some kind of Macbookesque hipster bauble people only use to lounge at Starbucks watching Netflix? Isn't this supposed to be a work machine for working people to do work on?

 

Exactly.

 

It's probably time to jump ship again before all manufacturers decide to remove Alt and Ctrl keys 😅. Or take another hit on willingness to work when not having the laptop docked.

[SvenC]

5770 is available in Germany. Only i5-12600H is available without dGPU. Going for an i7-12700H shows +7,73€ for the CPU and 611,06€ for the A2000 - hate that 😞

 

i9-12900H shows +38€ but if forces an A3000 with 12GB RAM (I really don't need that in any way) - so it goes to 3800€ instead of the base i5 with iGPU for 2000€. So at least 1000€ extra for a dGPU I do not want...

[Aaron44126]

Dell announced the 7000 series (earlier than expected)!  Not available to order, still in "coming soon" status.  Looks like they gave a FYQ2 release window, which I believe runs May through July.

(Will update this post shortly with some links.)

 

[Edit]

Dell press release.  https://investors.delltechnologies.com/news-releases/news-release-details/reimagined-work-demands-redesigned-machines

The press release doesn't mention "Adler Lake HX" but it does note that Intel will be dropping new 55W mobile CPUs "soon".  Spec sheets released have the CPU details blanked out.  Hadn't been thinking that they might do a "partial announcement" in this manner.

 

This article from wccftech has a lot of information and photos.  (The same photos have shown up in articles from a number of other outlets...  I just found this one first.)

https://wccftech.com/dell-precision-7770-7670-workstation-laptops-official-intel-alder-lake-hx-16-core-cpus-camm-128-gb-ddr5-memory/

 

Precision 7770

Spoiler

(There's a good view of the keyboard layout; seems to be exactly the same as 7X60, as expected.)

 

Dell Precision 7670

Spoiler

 

Breakdown images:

 

7770

[Edit] - This photo doesn't make sense...  Heatsink and fans should be below the motherboard, right?

 

7670

 

CAMM module vs SODIMM

 

 

CAMM module physical PCB shots.  Module size seems to change depending on capacity?  (I sort of figured that they would do this.  The module that we saw before could not hold enough memory chips for 128 GB of RAM.)

Spoiler

 

 

128GB looks like:

 

 

SODIMM interposer

Spoiler

 

 

There's also a Precision 5470 "anniversary edition" system with a cool blue finish, which will be available for a limited time.

 

[Edit 2]

VideoCardz has a nice page where you can see front-and-back images of all four different CAMM modules.  The width also changes a little depending on capacity.

https://videocardz.com/newz/dell-introduces-camm-ddr5-memory-for-its-new-precision-laptops-up-to-128gb-per-module

 

It also states that CAMM was designed in collaboration with other companies, including Intel, and is not intended to be a proprietary standard.  (Maybe we will see it being used in place of SODIMM in systems from other manufacturers at some point?)

 

[Edit 3]

Two different chassis sizes for Precision 7670.  (Spot the difference?)

 

[Edit 4]

Interesting timing.  New driver from NVIDIA supports all of the new workstation GPUs.

https://www.nvidia.com/download/driverResults.aspx/187606/en-us

I looked at the Dell INF file.  It supports GPUs in the Precision 5X70 but not 7X70, yet.

[Aaron44126]

@Dell-Mano_G, I was hoping that I could trouble you to take a look at these questions.  I have a good number of them this time...

1. I see 180W and 240W power adapters listed on the spec sheet for both Precision 7X70 systems.  What determines which one you get?
2. Somewhere, I saw mention that the power adapters are smaller now.  Are you using the GaN power adapters (like Alienware has started using recently)?  Any issue with using older 180W or 240W power adapters?
3. On the cooling system, anything you'd like to note about that?  The design is rather different than previous generations going back to 7X10.
4. Do all of the NVMe drive slots support PCI Express 4?  Is there any difference in performance between the slots?
5. CAMM memory modules — What was the impetus for adding these to the system design?
6. Do you expect SODIMM configurations to continue to be offered as a choice in future generations of Precision Mobile Workstation systems?
7. Will the SODIMM interposer be available for purchase separately?  (If not right off of the web site, then through the spare parts dept.?)
8. What is the maximum boost power level of the GPU in the 7670 and 7770?  Assuming top-spec GPU.  (NVIDIA's GPU spec sheet shows RTX A5500 maxing out at 165W.)
9. Are power limits the same between the RTX A5500 and the RTX 3080 Ti?
10. Are you able to share anything regarding Dell's reasoning for now offering a GeForce GPU in the Precision 7000 systems?  (Basically a point of curiosity for me.)
11. NVIDIA's GPU spec sheet lists ECC vRAM support for the RTX A3000, RTX A4500, and RTX A5500.  Is this available/enabled in the Precision systems?  Is it something that is "for free" / "always on", or do you have to go and enable it from NVIDIA Control Panel or something?  (I am recalling that with some older mobile Quadros, you would have to explicitly enable ECC vRAM, and turning it on would reduce the amount of available vRAM as it basically used some of the GPU vRAM to provide ECC.)
12. Is NVIDIA Dynamic Boost 2.0 supported?  (It looks like this was not initially supported in Precision 7X60, but it was added with the 1.8.x BIOS update.)
13. Is NVIDIA "Advanced Optimus" supported?  (Note: Referring here specifically to "Advanced Optimus" which is different from "Optimus".)
14. Is OLED image retention or "burn-in" a concern for the Precision 7670 UHD+ display?  (Thinking some display elements on the screen could be fixed for hours at a time.)
15. Does the Precision 7770 4K/120Hz panel support FreeSync or any other dynamic refresh rate mechanism?  (...I saw that the Alienware M17 R5, which launched recently, has a 17" panel that includes this.)
16. With those hinges, how far can the display open?
17. Anything that you would like to mention regarding the display panels?
18. Are those "lines" on the very front of the sides of the system WLAN antennas, or what?
19. Anything else new that you would like to draw attention to?
20. Any hint as to when the systems will be available to order?

Amazing work from the Precision team, as always...

 

I wanted to note that I'm very grateful for the improvements in fan behavior made with the Tiger Lake / 7X60 systems, something that I wasn't actually expecting until I actually had one in front of me.  The EC/BIOS fan control is much more granular now and my work Precision 7560 is able to spend much of the time with the fans running, but below 2000 RPM (basically inaudible).  I hope that the 7X70 systems have maintained this.

[Aaron44126]

Really interesting article on CAMM, which it turns out is not intended to be a Dell proprietary standard, but rather potentially the "next thing" after SODIMM if it gets JEDEC approval.

 

https://www.pcworld.com/article/693366/dell-defends-its-controversial-new-laptop-memory.html

[Ionising_Radiation]

Interesting; this generation of Precisions has gotten much more media attention than before (possibly because of the CAMM).

It's very nice that Dell wants to make it a JEDEC standard and I hope it goes through because it looks technically sound. However, it also looks like the boards are huge—they appear to rival MXM 3.0b modules in size. 

[SvenC]

20 minutes ago, Ionising_Radiation said:

It's very nice that Dell wants to make it a JEDEC standard and I hope it goes through because it looks technically sound. However, it also looks like the boards are huge—they appear to rival MXM 3.0b modules in size. 

Size seems to depend on the ammount of RAM when you follow Aarons link on pcworld. Even if it seems bigger than 128 in 4 sodimms, they will fit on one side of the motherboard, so easier to replace and less height is needed.

[Aaron44126]

1 hour ago, Ionising_Radiation said:

However, it also looks like the boards are huge—they appear to rival MXM 3.0b modules in size. 

 

Interestingly, the board size changes depending on the capacity.

 

Spoiler

16GB — Not much bigger than a SODIMM.  Memory chips only on one side.

 

32GB — Longer.  Memory chips only on one side.

 

64GB — Actually slightly shorter than 32GB (look at holes for screws), but wider and now there are chips on both sides.

 

128GB — Monster.

 

If this becomes a standard, presumably laptop manufacturers would be OK with not offering the full 128GB on some systems and could design those systems with only the smaller modules in mind.  (Sort of reminiscent of MXM 3.0a vs MXM 3.0b.)  Also, the 16GB and 32GB modules could probably be shrunk down a bit more if they made double-sided versions.

 

(And of course, as memory "shrinks" they will be able to fit more capacity on smaller modules.)

 

Interesting development all around.  Will be curious to see how it plays out.

 

[Edit] Ninja'd

128GB version can't be that much bigger than four SODIMMs.  It has the same number of DRAM chips and they are really packed on there.  The physical space for the CAMM connector is a pretty good size, though.  I guess they can't put chips there because there will be a "bolster plate" there doing the... "compression attachment".

 

[Edit 2]

Seems like the line of thinking is ..... Other than saving space, SODIMM is going to have signal issues if we start trying to push the memory speed much higher, and Dell is trying to head that off with a new design for memory modules.  Putting it in Precision 7X70 (before it is a "standard") is their way of saying, "See? It works."

[Peksha]

  

1 hour ago, Aaron44126 said:

128GB version can't be that much bigger than four SODIMMs.  It has the same number of DRAM chips and they are really packed on there.  The physical space for the CAMM connector is a pretty good size, though.  I guess they can't put chips there because there will be a "bolster plate" there doing the... "compression attachment"

1. The module is simply huge.

2. The mount doesn't look simple/precise/quick release and secure enough to install on your own.

3. No space for additional ECC chips for every 8

4. Due to the size, the length of the tracks from the farthest chip to the pad is increased compared to the closest

[Aaron44126]

Here is the CAMM patent application referenced in the PC World article.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20220029322A1/ (info)

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/87/ca/f3/74f33834848280/US20220029322A1.pdf (pdf)

 

1 hour ago, Peksha said:

3. No space for additional ECC chips for every 8

 

Looks like they are not interested in producing ECC CAMM modules at the moment, but the interface should support it (they are offering ECC support via SODIMM for Precision 7X70).  Though it seems to me that they could fit four more DRAM chips on there if they extended the board length just slightly.  Maybe we'll see ECC CAMM modules in the next year or two ...?

Spoiler

 

[Dell-Mano_G]

6 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

@Dell-Mano_G, I was hoping that I could trouble you to take a look at these questions.  I have a good number of them this time...

1. I see 180W and 240W power adapters listed on the spec sheet for both Precision 7X70 systems.  What determines which one you get?
2. Somewhere, I saw mention that the power adapters are smaller now.  Are you using the GaN power adapters (like Alienware has started using recently)?  Any issue with using older 180W or 240W power adapters?
3. On the cooling system, anything you'd like to note about that?  The design is rather different than previous generations going back to 7X10.
4. Do all of the NVMe drive slots support PCI Express 4?  Is there any difference in performance between the slots?
5. CAMM memory modules — What was the impetus for adding these to the system design?
6. Do you expect SODIMM configurations to continue to be offered as a choice in future generations of Precision Mobile Workstation systems?
7. Will the SODIMM interposer be available for purchase separately?  (If not right off of the web site, then through the spare parts dept.?)
8. What is the maximum boost power level of the GPU in the 7670 and 7770?  Assuming top-spec GPU.  (NVIDIA's GPU spec sheet shows RTX A5500 maxing out at 165W.)
9. Are power limits the same between the RTX A5500 and the RTX 3080 Ti?
10. Are you able to share anything regarding Dell's reasoning for now offering a GeForce GPU in the Precision 7000 systems?  (Basically a point of curiosity for me.)
11. NVIDIA's GPU spec sheet lists ECC vRAM support for the RTX A3000, RTX A4500, and RTX A5500.  Is this available/enabled in the Precision systems?  Is it something that is "for free" / "always on", or do you have to go and enable it from NVIDIA Control Panel or something?  (I am recalling that with some older mobile Quadros, you would have to explicitly enable ECC vRAM, and turning it on would reduce the amount of available vRAM as it basically used some of the GPU vRAM to provide ECC.)
12. Is NVIDIA Dynamic Boost 2.0 supported?  (It looks like this was not initially supported in Precision 7X60, but it was added with the 1.8.x BIOS update.)
13. Is NVIDIA "Advanced Optimus" supported?  (Note: Referring here specifically to "Advanced Optimus" which is different from "Optimus".)
14. Is OLED image retention or "burn-in" a concern for the Precision 7670 UHD+ display?  (Thinking some display elements on the screen could be fixed for hours at a time.)
15. Does the Precision 7770 4K/120Hz panel support FreeSync or any other dynamic refresh rate mechanism?  (...I saw that the Alienware M17 R5, which launched recently, has a 17" panel that includes this.)
16. With those hinges, how far can the display open?
17. Anything that you would like to mention regarding the display panels?
18. Are those "lines" on the very front of the sides of the system WLAN antennas, or what?
19. Anything else new that you would like to draw attention to?
20. Any hint as to when the systems will be available to order?

Amazing work from the Precision team, as always...

 

I wanted to note that I'm very grateful for the improvements in fan behavior made with the Tiger Lake / 7X60 systems, something that I wasn't actually expecting until I actually had one in front of me.  The EC/BIOS fan control is much more granular now and my work Precision 7560 is able to spend much of the time with the fans running, but below 2000 RPM (basically inaudible).  I hope that the 7X70 systems have maintained this.

1. It will all be dependent on the configuration.  Why burden someone with a low config with a 240W adapter? Get the adapter suited for your config.

2. Yes the power adapters are much much smaller gen on gen.  The 180W is smaller than the current 130W and the 240W is smaller than the current 180W.  The systems are backward compatible with the older adapters.  

3. A lot of work has gone into the thermal design.  First time we have DOO, Dual Opposite Outlet, fans which circulate 30% more air within the system.  

4. All M.2 slots are PCIe Gen 4.  No difference between them.  On the 7770, with 4 x M.2 we now support RAID 10.  A first for mobile workstations. 

5. There is a great write-up on PC World on this.  

6. That depends on the technology.  Read the write-up on PC World.  I think it addresses this question. 

7. Not right away, no. 

8. I can reveal this info after we launch.  

9. I can reveal this info after we launch.

10. We offer the GeForce for customers whos workloads benefit from it.  Those developing VR, game development, etc... In professional ISV type benchmarks, SPECviewperf 2020, you will see that the GeForce is absolutely not intended for use with ISV applications. 

11. In the system, nothing to do on your part. 

12. I will check but I think it is already in there. 

13. No

14. No it isn't.  The technology has progressed over the last few generations. 

15. Not sure, I will check.  I'm pretty sure it is the same panel Alienware is using.  

16. Greater than 180 degrees, to the table top. 

17. They are all ComfortView Plus, full time low blue light.  

18. Close, wireless antennas. 

19. The chassis options on the 7670.  It is graphic card dependent.  If you order a UMA, A1000, or A2000 class GFX card you get the thin chassis automatically.  If you order the A3000, A4500, A5500, or 3080Ti you get the performance chassis. 

20. Very soon.