Framework Laptop

[Reciever]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. 

 

Im interested in the teardown of the 16" version and what kind of graphics tier they are looking to integrate.

[serpro69]

Now this just got interesting. 

I haven't yet read through all of it, but do they also offer upgradable CPUs? I'm actually more interested in that than the GPU really. But still , looks like they're going in the right direction. 

[Kitje]

3 hours ago, serpro69 said:

but do they also offer upgradable CPUs?

I'd imagine you'd do by replacing the board. I don't think Intel would have any intention going back to socket.

[Aaron44126]

Yeah, you can swap out the mainboard to replace the CPU. See: https://frame.work/marketplace/mainboards

 

Honestly the prices aren’t that bad. $1000+ for the top model might be a bit steep, but the idea of upgrading your laptop a piece at a time rather than all at once sure is interesting, you can just buy pieces as you need them....  And it looks like you can get a pretty good discount if you are willing to run a generation or two behind.

 

You can check around, in addition to regular stuff like memory modules and NVMe drives, they also have like a fingerprint reader module and a whole display panel that you can buy. Everything also has directions on how to do the replacement.  The 16” version is adding room for six "expansion cards" instead of four, the “expansion bay” system (swappable back part of the system where the dGPU goes) and modules for the “input deck” (palmrest/keyboard area) which can actually be swapped around while the system is running.

 

[Edit]
I also love that the EC code is open source and you can muck with it, and that manual fan control doesn't seem too complicated (as a guy who prefers to be in control of how the fans work…).

 

[Edit 2]

Add some links.

 

[Edit 3]

Man I love the configuration page!  If you pick DIY then you are free to leave out the memory modules, storage, and OS with the assumption that you'll just "bring your own" components.

Really want to see the full specs for the 16" model...

[Ishayin]

4 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

 

 

Thanks for the updates! I also think the new 16" model looks a lot more appealing, even just for the additional expansion port slots.

 

I recently came across a nice overview of ethics ratings for different laptop manufacturers:

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/sites/default/files/flipbook/Issue199Preview/10/
https://digitalcourage.social/@aligyie/109142708047527532

 

I guess these things depend a lot on exactly what and how they measure. But interesting to see Framework coming second to Acer all the same...

 

Also, anyone who feels like Framework isn't truly modular enough might like to have a look at MNT:

https://mntre.com/
https://liliputing.com/mnt-pocket-reform-is-7-inch-mini-laptop-with-a-modular-open-hardware-design/
https://www.inverse.com/input/reviews/mnt-reform-review-your-diy-laptop-fantasy-is-here-at-last

😎

[Aaron44126]

Just one other thing, I happened to notice that the Framework Laptop 16 with dGPU appears to have a USB-C port on the back.  The version with no dGPU installed does not.  I wonder if you can (or must) plug in to the back to power it, which would end the requirement that one of the "expansion card" slots must be used for charging.......

[Ishayin]

3 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

Just one other thing, I happened to notice that the Framework Laptop 16 with dGPU appears to have a USB-C port on the back.  The version with no dGPU installed does not.  I wonder if you can (or must) plug in to the back to power it, which would end the requirement that one of the "expansion card" slots must be used for charging.......

 

Interesting, and I hope so! I was just reading the Lilliputing article on this, and noticed there that compared to the 13.5 inch, the 16 inch variant drops the 3.5mm headphone jack, so that becomes an optional expansion port too:

https://liliputing.com/framework-introduces-a-16-inch-modular-laptop-with-upgradeable-discrete-graphics-and-customizable-keyboard-and-input-options/

 

I also noticed there some other fun Framework related projects:

https://liliputing.com/penks-mainboard-terminal-is-an-all-in-one-pc-that-stuffs-a-framework-mainboard-into-a-retro-inspired-body/
https://liliputing.com/you-can-transform-frameworks-modular-laptop-into-a-tablet-unofficially/
https://liliputing.com/cooler-master-case-turns-the-framework-mainboard-into-a-desktop-pc-for-39/

 

[Aaron44126]

Yeah, I saw that the framework motherboard can also be used standalone. They even have 3D printed cases you can download from their official GitHub. Can imagine giving it a second life as a home server or something after upgrading the laptop…

 

I just bought a new laptop last year, and I’ve been a Precision guy for a long time, but… the more I think about this, the more I’m not seeing anything other than a Framework as my “next” one assuming that they continue on a similar trajectory and don’t die off as a company by then. (I wonder if they’d do an 18”, though…)

[serpro69]

11 hours ago, Ishayin said:

 

Interesting, and I hope so! I was just reading the Lilliputing article on this, and noticed there that compared to the 13.5 inch, the 16 inch variant drops the 3.5mm headphone jack, so that becomes an optional expansion port too:

https://liliputing.com/framework-introduces-a-16-inch-modular-laptop-with-upgradeable-discrete-graphics-and-customizable-keyboard-and-input-options/

 

I also noticed there some other fun Framework related projects:

https://liliputing.com/penks-mainboard-terminal-is-an-all-in-one-pc-that-stuffs-a-framework-mainboard-into-a-retro-inspired-body/
https://liliputing.com/you-can-transform-frameworks-modular-laptop-into-a-tablet-unofficially/
https://liliputing.com/cooler-master-case-turns-the-framework-mainboard-into-a-desktop-pc-for-39/

 

 

That framework tablet looks very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

[Aaron44126]

This was pretty cool.  LTT got their hands on a Framework Laptop 16.  No actual new information regarding specs or anything, but there's a good look at a GPU module, including the "GPU side" of the connector to the mainboard and direct confirmation that they've used Dell's DGFF connectors, the same used in Dell Precision and Alienware systems (with a different pinout).  Also at around 7:14 you can see him swapping out the different input deck modules, pretty nifty how they seem to magnetically just snap in.

 

 

[KabyZen]

On 3/28/2023 at 8:49 AM, Aaron44126 said:

This was pretty cool.  LTT got their hands on a Framework Laptop 16.  No actual new information regarding specs or anything, but there's a good look at a GPU module, including the "GPU side" of the connector to the mainboard and direct confirmation that they've used Dell's DGFF connectors, the same used in Dell Precision and Alienware systems (with a different pinout).  Also at around 7:14 you can see him swapping out the different input deck modules, pretty nifty how they seem to magnetically just snap in.

 

 

A certain DTR company needs to start taking notes. Like now. Otherwise maybe we need a Framework with Prema BIOS mods 😮.

 

It's not exactly the same as the DGFF since Dell doesn't publish things, but an open-source standard is something that we needed since yesterday.

[Aaron44126]

5 hours ago, KabyZen said:

A certain DTR company needs to start taking notes. Like now. Otherwise maybe we need a Framework with Prema BIOS mods 😮.

 

The embedded controller firmware is open source, but it doesn't look like the BIOS is (unless you have the "Chromebook" version of the laptop).  It's possible that Framework could open source the BIOS at some point.  They didn't open source the EC firmware until about six months after the original Framework Laptop 13 launched, and their article indicates that they like to continue down the path of open sourcing other firmware components.

 

Though, people have been doing BIOS mods for a long time so maybe someone experienced will take a crack at it.  I doubt that there has been as much interest in modding for their 13" system as there would be for proper high-performance systems.  I did find one thread where someone took a crack at it and it did not seem to go well.

 

(Also, since laptop design-to-market time is about two years, even if Clevo does want to adopt this, it would probably be at least 2025 before we see anything.)

[Aaron44126]

Sean Hollister at The Verge spent some time dissecting Framework's DGFF pinout.  It looks like:

• Framework is anticipating that you could put a second battery in the expansion bay — added to the standard internal battery, you could probably have well over 100 Wh capacity installed.  (...If you don't need a dGPU.)
• Framework is anticipating that the system could draw >180W of power via USB-PD.  (So it shouldn't be a low-power system, limited to 130W or something like XPS 17?)

https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/30/23612467/framework-laptop-16-battery-parts-games

[KabyZen]

On 3/30/2023 at 3:44 PM, Aaron44126 said:

Sean Hollister at The Verge spent some time dissecting Framework's DGFF pinout.  It looks like:

• Framework is anticipating that you could put a second battery in the expansion bay — added to the standard internal battery, you could probably have well over 100 Wh capacity installed.  (...If you don't need a dGPU.)
• Framework is anticipating that the system could draw >180W of power via USB-PD.  (So it shouldn't be a low-power system, limited to 130W or something like XPS 17?)

https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/30/23612467/framework-laptop-16-battery-parts-games

Pinch me now, this is too good to be true. After my Clevo runs its course I may get one of these. Maybe I'll forgo the 3080 upgrade.

Hopefully we can choose which GPU to use in the BIOS instead of that Optimus crap.

[Kitje]

53 minutes ago, KabyZen said:

Hopefully we can choose which GPU to use in the BIOS instead of that Optimus crap.

Maybe one of those systems where you can choose hybrid, dedicated only or integrated only for output.

[Aaron44126]

1 hour ago, KabyZen said:

Hopefully we can choose which GPU to use in the BIOS instead of that Optimus crap.

38 minutes ago, Kitje said:

Maybe one of those systems where you can choose hybrid, dedicated only or integrated only for output.

 

I think that it will be Optimus / hybrid graphics only.  There is nothing in the expansion bay pinout regarding display passthrough from the dGPU.  There would have to be a number of pins dedicated to passing through an eDP signal, but there is nothing of the sort.

 

Direct output from the dGPU to an external display might be possible using the USB-C connector on the back of the system (the GPU bay), or maybe they will add other outputs like mDP/HDMI to the GPU bay.  (The expansion bay can provide additional outputs on the back side of the system.)

 

There's also still no indication as to which GPUs will even be available.  With "rumors" that NVIDIA has been rejecting most laptop designs with modular GPU chips, I wouldn't be surprised if the GPU selection is AMD-only, at least at first.

 

There should be a full spec reveal for Framework Laptop 16 before the end of "spring".

 

[Edit]

Nevermind, I take it back.  I thought that the right DGFF port was PCIe only, so I just looked at the left port pins.  But on the right port, past the PCIe lanes, there are DisplayPort pins listed as "DisplayPort interface for internal display" and some other display pins like backlight PWM control.  So, it does look like it should be possible to connect the internal display directly to the dGPU.

[IamTechknow]

Hearing about the latest Framework laptop and expansion bays and modules, makes me more convinced that the Framework laptop should be my next computer instead of a GeForce 40-series laptop or even a SFF desktop and that I really want the company to succeed in this. I be happy to be an early adopter for the 16-inch model and treat my laptop as some kind of investment. And open sourcing the EC is another big plus to me as that's the second company I heard do this (System76 is the first.)

[Aaron44126]

Framework posted some articles about improvements to the Framework Laptop 13.

 

https://frame.work/blog/whats-new-in-this-years-framework-laptop-13-part1

https://frame.work/blog/whats-new-in-this-years-framework-laptop-13-part2
 

Matte display, better battery, louder speakers, new thing for the WiFi antenna cables, all cool…

 

One interesting surprise is that they are omitting the RTC battery in new builds of 13th gen and Ryzen systems, so you will lose the system time if the main battery is ever disconnected. They have given some reasoning, but I wonder how much of it is “saving some money”. You can source an RTC battery separately if this is a concern. (They’ll be offering it on the marketplace, but it’s a pretty normal battery that you could find elsewhere.)

[Aaron44126]

Could you build a Framework laptop from scratch?

I was poking around their parts page after noticing how difficult it would be to replace the palmrest in my Precision 7560.

 

They seem to sell everything individually.  You could get ...

• Top cover, bottom cover, and input cover (comes with keyboard, touchpad, and power button / fingerprint reader)
• Plus fasteners for those three components
• Webcam module, display panel, hinges
• Antennas and battery
• Wi-Fi card
• Power adapter
• Your choice of motherboard and expansion cards

Put everything together and, ta-da, laptop.  Or if you don't want a laptop (or have done an upgrade and replaced the board), you can get a standalone case to slap the motherboard in.

 

Obviously not the same but it "feels" a lot more like how you can easily build a desktop from scratch.  Too bad it's just one company doing the work.  I wish other manufacturers would get onboard so we could have cross-compatible components.

[VEGGIM]

It's been confirmed how it looks like for the cooling

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35286544#35289558

[Aaron44126]

Today, there are some new details on the AMD version of the Framework Laptop 13, featuring RDNA 3 integrated graphics.

https://frame.work/blog/announcing-the-framework-laptop-13-powered-by-amd-ryzen

[Aaron44126]

I missed this post.  They have detailed the display in the Framework Laptop 16.

https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptop-16-deep-dive---display

 

It looks like they were planning to allow preorders around Computex but they have had to delay and now it will be pushed into summer.

 

With regards to the display...

 

The Framework Laptop 16 has 2560x1600 resolution, a 100% DCI-P3 color gamut, variable refresh rate up to 165Hz, 9ms rise+fall time, 1500:1 contrast, and an unusually high 500 nit brightness.

 

I was hoping for full 4K (3840×2400) so that 200% scaling can be used while maintaining a FHD desktop working space, but this would still be a fine display panel for gaming in a laptop.  VRR and 165Hz is pretty nice and 500 nits is plenty bright.  And, it has a matte finish.  As you would expect, it is designed to be easy to swap out, though I don't know if you'd be able to transfer in another "generic" 16" eDP panel...  We'll have to see what the mounting and rear display cable attachment look like.

 

LTT also posted a video showing an upgrade of a Framework Laptop 13 to the new AMD motherboard, and putting the leftover 12th-gen Alder Lake motherboard in a standalone Cooler Master case.

 

 

[Aaron44126]

Today, Framework released details on the power adapter for Framework Laptop 16, which will be 180W.

https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptop-16-deep-dive---180w-power-adapter

 

Some tidbits I saw:

• Under high load with a dGPU in play, the system can draw from battery power to push total power use above 180W.
• Framework Laptop 16 supports 240W over USB-C, and while Framework will not be providing such a power adapter, you can source your own and use it with this system.  (You can also order the system without a power adapter at all, if you plan to do that.)
• The cables on both sides of the "brick" can be unplugged/replaced.

[Csupati]

On 6/5/2023 at 2:07 PM, Aaron44126 said:

I missed this post.  They have detailed the display in the Framework Laptop 16.

https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptop-16-deep-dive---display

 

It looks like they were planning to allow preorders around Computex but they have had to delay and now it will be pushed into summer.

 

With regards to the display...

 

The Framework Laptop 16 has 2560x1600 resolution, a 100% DCI-P3 color gamut, variable refresh rate up to 165Hz, 9ms rise+fall time, 1500:1 contrast, and an unusually high 500 nit brightness.

 

I was hoping for full 4K (3840×2400) so that 200% scaling can be used while maintaining a FHD desktop working space, but this would still be a fine display panel for gaming in a laptop.  VRR and 165Hz is pretty nice and 500 nits is plenty bright.  And, it has a matte finish.  As you would expect, it is designed to be easy to swap out, though I don't know if you'd be able to transfer in another "generic" 16" eDP panel...  We'll have to see what the mounting and rear display cable attachment look like.

 

LTT also posted a video showing an upgrade of a Framework Laptop 13 to the new AMD motherboard, and putting the leftover 12th-gen Alder Lake motherboard in a standalone Cooler Master case.

 

 

4k LCD  would be great for it  , but if its an oled 4k that would be the best. 

They mentioned previsuly an extra "mxm" slot at the back, if its functions as a battery while traveling and repalced at home to  a MXM to Pcie 16X adapter that can be the best option for gaming  power and compatibility .

[Aaron44126]

15 minutes ago, Csupati said:

They mentioned previsuly an extra "mxm" slot at the back, if its functions as a battery while traveling and repalced at home to  a MXM to Pcie 16X adapter that can be the best option for gaming  power and compatibility .

 

Framework Laptop 16 will feature swappable rear modules.  It's not really MXM, they are using a customized DGFF connector, but it will allow for either a discrete GPU or extra battery to be installed.  They have not yet given details for what types of modules will be available at launch.  (We can assume that dGPU will be there, but anything else is up in the air.)

 

...I am sort of thinking that swapping them won't be as easy as just pulling one module out and snapping in another.  They use a DGFF connector on the motherboard side, so you'll probably have to snap out the keyboard and remove a couple of screws on the motherboard side holding the DGFF connector in place before a module can actually be removed.