Thinkpad P16 Gen 1

[win32asmguy]

This is a place to discuss Lenovo's high end mobile workstation for 2022, which replaces the P15 Gen 2, P17 Gen 2 and T15g Gen 2.

 

PSREF Link

 

Pro/Con list vs. other options:

• HX CPU performance
  • Thinkpad P16 - PL1/PL2 set at 157W. CBR23 22,700 observed. CPU thermal throttles with stock settings and factory paste job. P-core temperature deltas observed 12C. Overclocking/Undervolting is locked by default in the bios. e-cores cannot be disabled in the bios.
  • Precision 7770 - PL1 85W/PL2 157W.
• GPU Performance
  • Thinkpad P16 - No Geforce GPU option. RTX A4500 reported as 130W in Nvidia Control Panel, PSREF states 115W. Timespy Graphics ~9700. There may be a bug limiting the GPU performance, usually switching between High/Balanced power modes will fix it for now.
  • Precision 7770 - RTX 3080 Ti - 140W
• Memory
  • Thinkpad P16 - Uses DDR5 SODIMM modules, limited to 4000MT regardless of what is installed. High performance kits from Kingston/GSkill may be able to reduce latency over factory modules
  • Precision 7770 - Uses proprietary CAMM module. Will add more gathered details later.
• Storage
  • Thinkpad P16 - Two M.2 PCIe Gen 4 slots. Primary slot is connected via PCH and therefore shares DMI bandwidth to the CPU with all other devices (TB4, Wifi, USB) (note: I need to verify the second slot is not connected via the other CPU x4 Gen4 lanes)
  • Precision 7770 - Need to verify information
• TB4
  • Thinkpad P16 - Video output only via Nvidia GPU if one is present. The TB4 PCIe lanes are connected to the PCH and share DMI bandwidth with other devices like storage, wifi, usb
  • Precision 7770 - Video output via Nvidia or Intel selected via bios option.
• Fans
  • Thinkpad P16 - They appear to always be running at a low speed, at least when plugged in via AC. No high pitched whistle and slow ramp up/down which can cause initial thermal throttling under a sustained load. No initial noise when the fans turn on.
  • Precision 7770 - Reported to shut fans off fully at idle, and has a whoosh noise when they turn on. There is custom software to work around this effect and I am sure it is something that could be addressed in a BIOS/EC update eventually.

[Conan11]

In the other thread you mentioned observations about fan noise. That would be interesting to learn about.

[win32asmguy]

2 hours ago, Conan11 said:

In the other thread you mentioned observations about fan noise. That would be interesting to learn about.

Added information about the fans above.

[-batab-]

Wait, is it really impossible undervolt? Sad news. 

[saturnotaku]

6 hours ago, -batab- said:

Wait, is it really impossible undervolt? Sad news. 

 

That's true of pretty much all 12th-gen laptops.

[win32asmguy]

9 hours ago, -batab- said:

Wait, is it really impossible undervolt? Sad news. 

Yep. I also tried modifying the EFI setup variables (Overclocking Lock/Config Lock) to enable it, no dice as writes just result in a failure. I think it may be something about this being WM690 chipset, or maybe I missed disabling one of the dozen security related features in the bios.

[Conan11]

Do you know if the laptop be powered via USB-C? The specs say "power delivery 3.0", but I'm not sure if it means it can receive, or provide power.

 

I can't find any dock providing more than 100W in Lenovo store, and that's way less than needed. DELL docks like WD19DC specs state they provide high power only to DELL laptops, but perhaps there is some way to work around this?

 

Hmm: HP Thunderbolt Dock 230W G2?

 

Edit: ah, Power Delivery 3.0 allows for 100W per USB-C port, so perhaps 200W per 2 ports? It's still less than 230W from the charger distributed with the unit.

[win32asmguy]

8 hours ago, Conan11 said:

Do you know if the laptop be powered via USB-C? The specs say "power delivery 3.0", but I'm not sure if it means it can receive, or provide power.

 

I can't find any dock providing more than 100W in Lenovo store, and that's way less than needed. DELL docks like WD19DC specs state they provide high power only to DELL laptops, but perhaps there is some way to work around this?

 

Hmm: HP Thunderbolt Dock 230W G2?

 

Edit: ah, Power Delivery 3.0 allows for 100W per USB-C port, so perhaps 200W per 2 ports? It's still less than 230W from the charger distributed with the unit.

I have bad news. I do not think the P16 supports charging the battery (while powered off) or operation off of USB-C power sources. So you must use the AC Adapter. I tested it with the Apple 96W (20.5v 4.7a) USB-C AC Adapter. There is also a post from a Lenovo rep about the P15 Gen 2 last year saying the same thing. I believe there is an aftermarket 240W GAN brick with a compatible tip if you are looking to reduce the total travel weight.

[saturnotaku]

12 hours ago, win32asmguy said:

 I believe there is an aftermarket 240W GAN brick with a compatible tip if you are looking to reduce the total travel weight.

 

I believe this is the 240W GaN brick you're referring to:

 

240W DC & USB-C GaN Charger – SlimQ Official Store

 

Really sucks, though, that you can't use regular Type-C to charge. You'd need to bump down to the X1 Extreme/P1 Gen 5 to get this capability, though you'll take a small hit in performance.

[Conan11]

20 hours ago, win32asmguy said:

I have bad news. I do not think the P16 supports charging the battery (while powered off) or operation off of USB-C power sources. So you must use the AC Adapter. I tested it with the Apple 96W (20.5v 4.7a) USB-C AC Adapter. There is also a post from a Lenovo rep about the P15 Gen 2 last year saying the same thing. I believe there is an aftermarket 240W GAN brick with a compatible tip if you are looking to reduce the total travel weight.

Hmm, but P16 specs mention power delivery, while P15 Gen2 don't. Perhaps P16 simply refuses to use 96W charger? But I guess that's more of a question to Lenovo.

[win32asmguy]

1 hour ago, Conan11 said:

Hmm, but P16 specs mention power delivery, while P15 Gen2 don't. Perhaps P16 simply refuses to use 96W charger? But I guess that's more of a question to Lenovo.

I also tried a Dell display that supports 65W USB-C power delivery at the office. The only other device I have is a Razer Core X eGPU that I can test tonight.

 

It is possible the hardware support is present for but it needs a bios update for it to be enabled.

[Conan11]

Um, might it be it just won't accept a two digit number of watts?

[saturnotaku]

14 hours ago, Conan11 said:

Um, might it be it just won't accept a two digit number of watts?

 

That shouldn't matter as long as the charger supports 20V/5A, at least if you want to actually use the laptop while on Type-C power.

[Conan11]

21 minutes ago, saturnotaku said:

 

That shouldn't matter as long as the charger supports 20V/5A, at least if you want to actually use the laptop while on Type-C power.

Isn't it why they put two USB-C with power delivery next to each other on the back?

Anyway, if you need to connect a hub with one USB-C cable and power adapter with another cable, this is the same number of cables as connecting a docking station with two USB-C cables, so not much difference in terms of convenience. I'm asking only because I'm curious.

[win32asmguy]

1 hour ago, Conan11 said:

Isn't it why they put two USB-C with power delivery next to each other on the back?

Anyway, if you need to connect a hub with one USB-C cable and power adapter with another cable, this is the same number of cables as connecting a docking station with two USB-C cables, so not much difference in terms of convenience. I'm asking only because I'm curious.

I tried the Razer Core X last night and confirmed it does not charge the laptop. There was also a bios update this morning so I applied it; still no USB-C charging working. It might still be enabled via a future bios update. I do not have any Lenovo branded USB-C chargers to test unfortunately, in case there have a charger white list.

[saturnotaku]

51 minutes ago, win32asmguy said:

I tried the Razer Core X last night and confirmed it does not charge the laptop. There was also a bios update this morning so I applied it; still no USB-C charging working. It might still be enabled via a future bios update. I do not have any Lenovo branded USB-C chargers to test unfortunately, in case there have a charger white list.

 

While you can limit the amount of current a Type-C charger can provide a la the Asus ROG Flow X13/Z13, I don't think a full-on whitelist is possible. Either the port supports the power delivery standard or it doesn't.

[Conan11]

i9-12900HX/A4500/WQUXGA some first impressions:

• Immediately after turning on the computer the fans don't run at all. If the computer gets warmer they start to run in the slowest setting, and then it takes very long time for them to turn off again, even in "best power efficiency mode", and the computer doing nothing. I'd be grateful for advice on further reducing the power consumption when there's no need for lot's of computing power.
• In the slowest setting the fans are quiet, but not inaudible. The main sources of the noise is the air movement through the exhaust on the back and the air intake on the bottom, and the audibility depends on your position with respect to the laptop.
• At the next, higher speed, the fans start to be clearly audible, and at the maximum speed the noise is very loud. Perhaps it's fine if you leave the computer alone to crunch some numbers, but I can't imagine working for any longer periods of time this way. I guess it would also disturb other people in the room.
• I have impression that that at high loads the battery is drained, but I need to test it more.
• By waving my hand in front of the screen I see no PWM, even at the lowest brightness setting
• The keyboard has a good layout, but also quite shallow action
• The empty SSD slot includes a heatsink

 

[Conan11]

Update on installing a pair of double sided SSDs and configuring RAID

• Accessing the SSD slot under the keyboard is not as bad as one could think. Removing the drive itself is a bit difficult, as there is no space to put the fingers around it, but once I figured it out it was straightforward as well. Still, some care is needed.
• The original 1TB drive is single sided. It is pressed from the front by a heatsink, and from the back by a piece of rubber. A 4TB SSD recommended by Lenovo is double sided with the chips cover only part of the back side, so I presume the rubber doesn't press against the chips, but the flat piece of the card. These 4TB SSDs are not available to buy at the moment.
• I have a pair of Firecuda 530, and they have chips on the whole length of the card. They don't really fit well and they bend. The pieces of rubber can be easily removed (and possibly reinstalled) and then there is plenty of space. However then the drive under the keyboard is not tightly secured, as the screw is a bit too long. It's probably not completely loose, at it is pressed from the top by the heatsink, but I'd still feel better by adding a washer, or maybe some thinner spacer in place of the rubber piece.
• RAID is configured via Intel Rapid Storage, which is not a real RAID controller, but something partially dependent on the OS. It seems a standard in laptops advertised as having. When installing and removing the drives I noticed at some point BIOS trying to rebuild the degraded RAID, which I think is a good sign (some IRS versions work only using OS tools). I recommend turning BIOS into text mode for setting up RAID, as otherwise it's virtually impossible to set the volume capacity to anything else than the full drive size, due to buggy BIOS graphical interface.
• The only working way to install Windows is using Lenovo USB Recovery tool (https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/us/en/lenovorecovery). Regular Windows image seems to lack drivers to recognize the drives, and I failed to find the right drivers.
• I was not successful with installing Linux on RAID. Maybe this requires some more investigation, but perhaps the drivers are not ready. I noticed that in Dell Precision configurators you cannot select RAID with Linux, and this might be a hint.

As I'm not really familiar with Intel Rapid Storage, neither with Bitlocker, I have some questions:

• As the Lenovo USB Recovery simply installs Windows on the full drive, I wonder how to configure dual booting? Perhaps the best is to setup several RAID volumes, for each OS, and for the shared data area?
• How much potential is there in Bitlocker preventing me from accessing my own data? Considering: accessing data drive from another OS, possible drive failure, and accidental wiping the keys from BIOS?

[Aaron44126]

8 hours ago, Conan11 said:

 

• The only working way to install Windows is using Lenovo USB Recovery tool (https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/us/en/lenovorecovery). Regular Windows image seems to lack drivers to recognize the drives, and I failed to find the right drivers.
• I was not successful with installing Linux on RAID. Maybe this requires some more investigation, but perhaps the drivers are not ready. I noticed that in Dell Precision configurators you cannot select RAID with Linux, and this might be a hint.

 

As I'm not really familiar with Intel Rapid Storage, neither with Bitlocker, I have some questions:

• As the Lenovo USB Recovery simply installs Windows on the full drive, I wonder how to configure dual booting? Perhaps the best is to setup several RAID volumes, for each OS, and for the shared data area?
• How much potential is there in Bitlocker preventing me from accessing my own data? Considering: accessing data drive from another OS, possible drive failure, and accidental wiping the keys from BIOS?

 

To do a regular Windows install with Intel Rapid Storage, you need to have the Intel RST drivers unpacked on a flash drive and use the "Load driver" button at the drive select screen in the Windows installer to load them.  Then, you should be able to select a drive (or RAID array) and install like normal.  I'm not sure how Lenovo handles this, but for Dell you can unpack the driver and look for the folder with INF and SYS files (in a folder called "f6vmdflpy-x64" in my case here).  Copy the contents of that folder to a flash drive and point the Windows installer to it when it says it can't find any drives.

 

I also tried booting Linux on the Precision 7770 and was surprised that it did not recognize the Intel RST RAID array "out of the box".  I opened up GParted and it just showed the three individual drives, not the array.  I have not done any further investigation.  Intel is usually good about contributing drivers to Linux so I wonder if it is just because this is a brand new system, stuff isn't caught up in distros yet?

 

With regards to BitLocker...  For a "regular drive", you will always be able to access your BitLocker data if you have the BitLocker recovery key, even if you move the drive to another machine or if the TPM keys get wiped.  If you try to boot the drive and it can't negotiate the key with the TPM, you will just get a prompt to enter the recovery key before Windows will boot.  Store the recovery key somewhere safe.  You might get prompted to enter the key if certain changes are made (BIOS update or certain BIOS setting changes for example).  If Windows starts prompting for the key at every boot, "suspend" and "resume" BitLocker from the control panel and that should stop.

 

For an Intel RST array, you will need all of the array drives attached to a (compatible) Intel RST controller in order to access the data as well.  My understanding is that you can "move" an Intel RST array to a different system (that also supports RST) just by moving all of the drives over and it will automatically be recognized... but I have not tried this myself.

[Conan11]

On 9/6/2022 at 7:37 AM, Aaron44126 said:

To do a regular Windows install with Intel Rapid Storage, you need to have the Intel RST drivers unpacked on a flash drive and use the "Load driver" button at the drive select screen in the Windows installer to load them.  Then, you should be able to select a drive (or RAID array) and install like normal.  I'm not sure how Lenovo handles this, but for Dell you can unpack the driver and look for the folder with INF and SYS files (in a folder called "f6vmdflpy-x64" in my case here).  Copy the contents of that folder to a flash drive and point the Windows installer to it when it says it can't find any drives.

Yes, this is exactly what I was trying, with no luck. The installer was able to load the drivers, but it still didn't see any drives in the computer. I tried both with the Intel driver you mention, and with the driver pack from the Lenovo website.

 

On 9/6/2022 at 7:37 AM, Aaron44126 said:

I also tried booting Linux on the Precision 7770 and was surprised that it did not recognize the Intel RST RAID array "out of the box".  I opened up GParted and it just showed the three individual drives, not the array.  I have not done any further investigation.  Intel is usually good about contributing drivers to Linux so I wonder if it is just because this is a brand new system, stuff isn't caught up in distros yet?

Same observation here.

The following thread https://www.spinics.net/lists/raid/msg69668.html includes: "Is RST support planned for mdadm?/AFAIK it is not planned." This is a bit sad, but perhaps I just don't understand the lingo? I wish to be proven wrong!

 

Some more updates:

• I could create only up to two RAID volumes with IRS, in which case the size of the second one was fixed to the remainder of the available capacity. Therefore one cannot have two RAID volumes and also some non-RAID space.
• A new BIOS release (1.13) allows to disable the efficiency cores.

 

Edit: and I'd forget:

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/accessories-and-software/docking/docking_thunderbolt-docks-(universal-cable-docks)/40b00300us

This seems like a docking station for P16, 230W power delivery.

[Aaron44126]

10 hours ago, Conan11 said:

Same observation here.

The following thread https://www.spinics.net/lists/raid/msg69668.html includes: "Is RST support planned for mdadm?/AFAIK it is not planned." This is a bit sad, but perhaps I just don't understand the lingo? I wish to be proven wrong!

 

I did some searching and came back with "mixed results".

 

Ubuntu documentation seems to indicate that it is not supported.  You should switch to AHCI mode and use "standard Linux" software RAID (MD RAID).

https://help.ubuntu.com/rst/index.html

 

Intel actually has some documentation that seems to indicate that MD RAID can "see" metadata that Intel RST puts on drives and thus recognize and use Intel RST arrays.  (I would presume, that if you can get this to work, you would be able to "read" Intel RAID arrays under Linux on a system that doesn't even support Intel RST.)  Getting the RAID volumes to become "visiable" in Linux might be as simple as running the mdadm "create config file" and "assemble" commands (page 9/10).

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/rst-linux-paper.pdf

(Booting off of a RAID array will require some extra work but that is also described in this document...)

 

10 hours ago, Conan11 said:

Yes, this is exactly what I was trying, with no luck. The installer was able to load the drivers, but it still didn't see any drives in the computer. I tried both with the Intel driver you mention, and with the driver pack from the Lenovo website.

 

Odd.  I've definitely done it on newer Precision systems.  These systems (at least Precision 7X60 and 7X70) won't take the "generic" Intel RST driver from Intel's site and they require the one provided by Dell.  Older systems (i.e. Precision 7530) would take the generic Intel RST driver.

 

If your RST controller shows up in Device Manager as "Intel RST VMD Controller 9A0B" or "Intel RST VMD Controller 467F", you can try loading the Dell driver.  https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-us/drivers/driversdetails?driverid=mk0y4&oscode=wt64a&productcode=precision-17-7770-laptop

(Run the .exe and choose to "extract" it, then go find the f6vmdflpy-x64 folder.)

[saturnotaku]

Has anyone tried one of these cables in an effort to get some form of USB-C power delivery to work?

 

USB Type C Male to Square Slim Tip Male Power Cable for Lenovo laptop 100W 1.8M | eBay

[alaskajoel]

1 hour ago, saturnotaku said:

Has anyone tried one of these cables in an effort to get some form of USB-C power delivery to work?

 

USB Type C Male to Square Slim Tip Male Power Cable for Lenovo laptop 100W 1.8M | eBay

I use these with the Lenovo Thinkpad / Thinkstation / Thinkcenter devices at my office. In my experience, if the Lenovo device requires a charger <=65w, these work without much fuss. 90w charger devices are finicky. My Zendure and Anker 100W chargers work for most 90w devices I've tried but my HyperJuice and Aukey chargers are hit or miss. This will not work at all with devices requiring >=135w charger minimum such as the X1 Extreme gen 4, Legion, etc. We would need to hear from a P16 owner who has tested a 90w charger on the device to know if there is a chance this will work. Previous Lenovo workstations were pretty picky about requiring at least 135w. 

[saturnotaku]

12 minutes ago, alaskajoel said:

I use these with the Lenovo Thinkpad / Thinkstation / Thinkcenter devices at my office. In my experience, if the Lenovo device requires a charger <=65w, these work without much fuss. 90w charger devices are finicky. My Zendure and Anker 100W chargers work for most 90w devices I've tried but my HyperJuice and Aukey chargers are hit or miss. This will not work at all with devices requiring >=135w charger minimum such as the X1 Extreme gen 4, Legion, etc. We would need to hear from a P16 owner who has tested a 90w charger on the device to know if there is a chance this will work. Previous Lenovo workstations were pretty picky about requiring at least 135w. 

 

I asked the same question on Reddit and it looks like someone with a P1 Gen 5 has had decent success. I know it's not a like-for-like comparison, but I at least think it would be worth a $10 or so gamble to try.

 

 

[Conan11]

After making a test of copying 200 GB of data from one partition to another both SSDs (setup in RAID1) go above 70°C. I wonder how bad sign is it?

Perhaps I should I add I also stressed the CPU during the test with CPU-Z, so more tests are needed, I was just trying to exercise various scenarios.

Edit: it isn't much different when the CPU is not stressed. The SSDs eventually throttle (a lot!), but only when they are quite above 70°C, which is the top temperature allowed in the specs. Also throttling alone doesn't seem to be enough to decrease the temperature.

 

I wonder how it may affect more realistic use scenarios. In particular, if one SSD dies, and I replace it, would the other one just overheat and die during rebuilding the RAID1 array?...