40 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

But they are in business. Market share would only matter if they had enough silicon. Yes, looks like there are quite a few 4080s sitting on shelves, but this would only get discounted if it it doesn't sell at all, or if they have a supply of 4080 chips they can't control (due to the manufacturing process, for example - if the chip in the 4080 is a flawed version of the one in 4090, sorry forgot the chip designations - is that how it works?).

Flawed silicon from 4090 (AD102) will be 4080 Ti before it will be dumbed down to 4080 (AD103). And 4080 is still not a full fat AD103 

NVIDIA details AD102, AD103, AD104 GPU specs - TweakTown

Back in business? They mostly has to rely on 4090 now. This is the only selling 4000 cards. And of course some Ampere silicon as they scrap older EOL cards. And how much of the older gen cards is already sold out to their AIC partners? They can't charge them two times to keep up profits. They has to sell something. And 4090 is too little.

Imagine Ford suddenly can only sell one model. And this "only model" is the most expensive of them all. Fords market shares all over would sink as a stone in water and profits would follow same way. Down the drain. You need to offer more than one model nowadays. AMD will offer two models within 2.5 weeks and Nvidia is stuck with only the 4090 and almost no sales from 4080. Nvidia couldn't made it any easier for AMD. But they could destroy for the Red side if they did something with 4080 price point beforehand. And I expect they do so. Just hope they will change the MSRP for their second best Ada and not a dirty trick to destroy the launc of 7900 cards.

30 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

Does he have unlimited amount of silicon to meet demand from all those market segments? Which one do you think is more profitable? (hint: check out the pricing of the data center cards)

His gaming revenue is collapsing and will fall down further before it reaches the bottom, but the profit margins will remain strong, which is what matters for him. As you said, he does have the more premium product. Not everyone will be able to afford it for the time being.

 

I'm sorry, but if the plan is to sit and wait for better pricing... well, looks like it's going to be a longer than expected sitting.

Nvidia saw what happened to Intel when AMD took over more and more market shares for processors the last half decade. Intel was forced to change course. You think Nvidia didn't learn anything from this and will let AMD also eat more market shares for graphics cards? Nope, won't happen. If they change 4080 prices they are back in business any day.

7 minutes ago, electrosoft said:

 

Or you leave the 4080 as is to give the perception of incredible value high (4090) or low (4070ti) if you go $1599.99 and even $799.99. Equally spaced ($1599.99 - $1199.99 - $799.99) also comes into play.

 

Let's accept the 4090 is going to remain at $1599.99 because it clearly overall outclasses anything and everything available. Expect the 4090ti to clock in at $1999.99.

 

Everything else for numerous reasons is in play for pricing.

 

If the 7900xt buries the 4070ti Nvidia has a lot of thinking to do especially if AMD drops it to $799.99.

 

I agree once the initial hype dies down Nvidia is in for a much less lucrative year than experienced during the heights of Ampere.

 

 

Not so sure Nvidia will keep same old tradition use the $x99 price label they are known for. Could be they will try change it and make it more appealing with $x49 price tags. 

I'm sure even Nvidia know people has less money to pay for fun nowadays and forwards. They has to do some changes to lure people to buy their over priced products. 

3 hours ago, electrosoft said:

$799 is realistic pricing....$699.99 if he wants to actually content price:performance against AMD.

$699 for 4070Ti means Nvidia has to do something with the 4080 price point. $500 gap between 3070Ti and 4080 is too big. Even $400 if they price it at more expected $799.

Only a few will go with 4080 at 1199$ and will rather go with AMD at $899 or $999. None will go for a 3070 Ti for 4K. Maybe because the card is so much cheaper than 4080? Nope. This means Nvidia have nothing to offer for those that want 4K gaming. No in hell people will pay $1200 for 4080 in the long run. Once the hype for 4000 series  is over and Nvidia don't change the price point for this card, the sales will be even worse than today.

I expect nvidia will be forced to change where they have put 4080 and go down to $1099. A small premium over 7900XTX for the better features. Then add 4070Ti price point around $799. This way they can also try lure in 4070 at sub $600 ($100 premium over 3070). All cards will be more expensive than ever but not so stupid high priced that many gamers will go over on the Red side. 

Nvidia Ceo Jensen should take a look in the mirror and try grasp reality... If he continue it's price strategy from Mining era for 4000 series cards it will go him bad. 

Sales of graphics cards hit lowest sales since a decade
by Hilbert Hagedoorn on: 11/28/2022

Yep, nvidia have to get rid of their old EOL cards they tried to push on the gamers while they sold all the Ampere cards to the miners. Those are also overpriced vs whats worth. People buy used instead of feed Nvidia with more money for old EOL cards.
NVIDIA Reportedly Ends Production of GeForce RTX 2060 & GTX 1660 Series Graphics Cards
https://wccftech.com/nvidia-reportedly-ends-production-of-geforce-rtx-2060-gtx-1660-series-graphics-cards/

The ugly truth for 4080... Many of the new 4080 cards from Nvidia will have a decent life in the stores shelves😃 Why pay 70% premium vs last gen xx80 Sku? The €20 discount below MSRP is a Joke, and the gamers should let them stay in the stores. Don't buy!!!

GeForce RTX 4080 below MSRP, but only by €20 and only for a limited time

Probably no reason to get excited just yet, but a good sign nonetheless. 
https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-geforce-rtx-4080-temporarily-drops-below-msrp-in-germany

About time Nvidia has to follow AMD's road to Canossa... The nore they wait the worse it will be.

AMD Ryzen 7000 get significant price cuts on official webstore
https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryzen-7000-cpus-get-official-new-low-prices-on-amd-webstore

The company has now followed other big retailers who were the first to offer desktop Ryzen 7000 series at significantly lower prices. The discount applies to all four Ryzen 7000 SKUs that were released less than two months ago.

12 hours ago, Etern4l said:

 

Interesting. Which specific power limits include power consumed by iGPU?

@Papusan

I mean it should be PL1 

19 hours ago, Etern4l said:

Edit: Quick question about CPU VDDQ on the 13900K:  BIOS default is 1.164V, apparently raising this to 1.2V could help with memory OC. Any downsides? 

 

Same question regarding SA voltage: also around 1.164V in BIOS. Thanks a lot. 

Set aside 1/2 hour for the Youtube video from Builzoid. He talk about the different DDR5 voltages (naming and safe voltage for everyday use or oc'ing)

7 hours ago, jaybee83 said:

 

what AMD provides with their platform longevity is CHOICE.

Yep. And sometimes you get less than expected(I don't talk about the gaming performance). I really hope AMD don't screw up this time for the 7000 series Ryzen refresh. 

Another tradeoff besides overclocking was the slightly reduced clock speeds and that may still be a thing on the AMD Ryzen 7000X3D CPUs given that the performance benefit that comes from cache makes up for the losses that occur due to the reduced clocks.

2 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

Yup, exactly. And, their X3D "upgrade" CPU was castrated. Nice upgrade joke. Cookie-cutter garbage for the gamer kiddos. Everyone gets a trophy for participating. Yay. Utterly worthless for anyone interested in overclocking. 

LOOL. Did they all get the same?😄

2 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

It has been a selling point for the underdog, but you're correct. It is kind of a gimmick. As AMD grows toward achieving parity with Intel, I expect that to become a thing of the past.

Thing of the past? Maybe you remember the upgrade fiasco with AMDs Ryzen 3000 series chips? Going from X and the next year's XT was nothing to write home about. Then AMD jumped over and keept 5000 series two years before they swapped socket. The only minor upgrade was a 8 cores chips who got the X3D upgrade for the 5000 series processors. And we may see similar for 7000 series. X3D as the only upgrade. For gamers. AMD ain't much better option than Intel if we talk about longeivity/upgrade paths. 

Those that can't grasp the AMD truth need to go into thing of the past, LOOL

2 hours ago, Clamibot said:

To add onto this, the problem with the platform longevity argument on the AMD side is that it's not really a benefit to most people,

Windows 11 22H2 is full of bugs: Check them out here

2 hours ago, Raiderman said:

After doing some quick research, it seems the 7900x 12 core is benching higher than the 5950x 16 core?? Is this correct? Just did a quick versus search on user benchmark.

 

https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-Ryzen-9-7900X-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-5950X/4132vs4086

Usebenchmark is trash. But yep, 7900x perform better than old gen Ryzen.

Rather use Cpu Monkey to fast compare performance bethween two SKUs. 

https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-amd_ryzen_9_7900x-vs-amd_ryzen_9_5950x

------------------------------------------------------------

KS could be  22% pricier (for 200MHz bump) than Core i9-13900K .

https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-core-i9-13900ks-6ghz-cpu-is-22-more-expensive-than-i9-13900k-according-to-canadian-retailer

-------------------------------------------------------------

And it could be that nvidia will try sell the 4080@12GB scam variant now branded "4070 Ti" for 1000$ in China. China have a lot of citizens so there is probably a lot stupids living there that will buy this cards from Ngreedia.
https://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-rtx-4070-ti-12-gb-graphics-card-rumored-to-cost-1000-us-in-china/

For US and and perhaps Europe...

If NVIDIA retails the $899 US pricing for the GeForce RTX 4070 Ti, it will have the same effect as the RTX 4080 has on the RTX 4090. The RTX 4070 Ti will make the RTX 4080 look good just like the RTX 4080 makes the RTX 4090 looks good. 

Aka Nvidia try push you to an higher tier SKU to keep up ASP (max profits). Lower sales means Nvidia need sell at higher ASP price point for the few cards sold.

If Nvidia want 899$ for the 4070Ti, this means an inflated price of 50% over 3070Ti. Nice done, Nvidia. 

Me and middle my son have started buying parts for his new gaming machine. Mind you, this is included the nice Norwegian taxes/currency exchange tarifs on top.

What we have ordered for now:

1. NZXT H7 Flow Midi Tower (White) - ($131.47) Quite good Reviews for a mid tower (the cooling)
2. Gigabyte Z690 AORUS PRO - ($371.00) Review
3. Corsair HX1500i (2022) - ($232.72). In fact, quite cheap in Norway Review
4. ASUS Dual GeForce RTX™ 3070 V2 OC Edition - ($656.96) Review
5. ASUS ROG Strix XG27AQ 27" Monitor - ($449.85) Review
6. WD Black SN850X PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 - 2TB - ($232.72) Review
7. G.skill 6400 ram from me. Already tested by me😀
8. He also got my golden 12900K and custom cooling for an ok price. Already tested by me😀

The good part... He is smart young man and didn't pay the extra for the RGB version (BLING BLING) of the chassis. And black was 50% more expensive so... White it will be. I hope the white color ain't equal awful as Dell's Lunar White color who turned into Yellowish disaster after 3 months(Yep, their +5000$ gaming Joke flagship's chassis, lid, bottom and palmrest couldn't be touched without gloves). Aka a 5 grand failure.

Then he will need some more cooling parts etc. Expected to be around $175 + $600 he owes me.

So the gaming machine will cost him around $2850. Yep, not cheap if you want something new in this part of the world. Neither is it easy to find what you want to buy. As you can se, not high end system with all the bells and whistles even it looks like this on the price tag, but good enough for his needs. So a tax hell isn't the best place live in.

I myself got the G.Skill Trident Z5 RGB DDR5-7200 BK C34 DC  while he took over my G.Skill 6400 sticks. I also bought the same monitor as my son (ASUS ROG Strix XG27AQ 27" Monitor). 

Now I'll have to find out what radiator that will fits in the chassis above. Me think, 45mm thick 360mm with high fin density and strong fans. Fans can be tuned for performance and or silence. Weak fans have already reached their limits. 

So rate the build as the reddit boys/girls always say(me, 5 of 6 stars), LOOL

5 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

It might be a good time for all of us to take a vacation from all things PC and give Intel, NVIDIA and AMD a massive profit time-out for a few years. I think most of us have what we need to get by for a few years. If one or more of them doesn't survive, then que sera sera. The alternative is, we continue getting screwed. I'd much rather turn the tables on them.

So you dont want go the HEDT route? Maybe AMD platform and 96 cores is what you really want? And no Intel Baby cores but loads of DDR5 sticks😁

Alphacool is out with new fans without the "bling bling" lighs show. The 3000/4000 rpm 120mm variant fans cost here home 3.7 times less than what you have to pay for Noctua NF-F12 industrial PPC-3000. Yep, 3.7 times cheaper. Or even better, the Alphacool Core 140mm fans cost 4 times less than the Noctua NF-A14 iPPC-3000 fan.

The minimum rpm range for the stronger fans will most likely be around 1100 rpm so more noisy than Noctua at low/minimum speed but still a product to consider. And half the life expectance vs Noctua's industrial fans. But 70.000 hours is equal well above 7 years use or around 1$ in cost each year. Not bad... Not bad at all. The unknown... We still don't know how the noise will sound in different rpm range/full speed. Or will deliver the advertised airflow/static pressure. I prefer my Noctua Industrial fans sound over many other of the high pressure/high speed fans out there. 

It's nice that there is still a chance for people to buy ok tech products without being "forced to pay extra" for the (unwanted) not needed RGB flashing blight in all form and shape.

Alphacool Unveils Core 120 PWM and Core 140 PWM Series Case Fans

8 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

Isn't this just some sort of HWBOT / benching software issue? You should be able to disable the option, as if it didn't exist for your purposes. As per @Mr. Fox, if I understood correctly.

 

At $2000 outside the US, I would proudly buy this card for professional purposes without a shade of shame. In fact, it's about the same price as A5000 while being significantly faster. The main downsides are the dimensions, 3 slot design and the wonky power adapter.

Nope. Defective design from Nvidia and bugged benchmark software from Futuremark. Hwbot don't trust results from an vanilla 4000 series graphics card running default settings but oc'd. If the new graphics cards is run stock the problem isn't there. But why post stock results on the bot?

5 hours ago, jaybee83 said:

soooo, from an actual 4090 owner perspective: yes ECC can easily be enabled / disabled in NCP, simple checkbox. also judging from other 4090 owners enabling ECC is bad for benching since it tops out earlier than without ECC.

 

i personally leave it disabled and finetune going my visual inspection (artifacts) and actual performance gains (as long as it goes up with higher clocks its fine).

 

in the end, i always prefer to have MORE manual options and control than less. remember guys, its not always JUST about heavy benching and collecting points on the bot 😋 different ppl use the same hardware for different purposes.

A broken design make it worse for all. Geforce ain't a professional graphics card.

5 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

 

LOL... great minds think alike. You and I simultaneously posted semantically the same thing. GIGO (garbage in, garbage out). UL is a joke. They ruined Futuremark. HWBOT banned XTU because it is garbage, and they should do the same with UL. 

 

You should also add in Nvidia. New has to be better? Huuu

1 hour ago, electrosoft said:

NVCP defaults to OFF for ECC FYI:

 

Yep. And hwbot won't accept scores posted on their leaderboard with default settings😀

This means a random person with LN2 can come on top of Futuremark Hall Of Fame's leaderboard and beat the hell of the best benchers in the world😎 Because they haven't the same tools to play with anymore.

So don't pull up your best scores from Hwbot to bragg about it. Some others without crippled HW can beat you, LOOL

New has to be better....

1 hour ago, Etern4l said:

 

OK, sounds bad from pure benching perspective, since presumably graphics benchchmarking software doesn't verify correctness of rendering (i.e. artefacts are fine as long as a run completes). 

Or put it the other way... People run their hardware at the edge of stability to max out scores or frames pr. sec (gaming). If the autocorrect has to kick in everytime and you will see lower scores or fps regardless how you see it. I expect this nice professional feature in NCP also will affect your max performance in gaming.

Edit: I haven't such cards so I can't test it with a decent overclock. 

Ps @Mr. Fox I didn't think this was possible. UL is the Futuremark owner and run certification business. And still can't make futuremark any better than what a single person without the skills can run a small shop. 

https://www.3dmark.com/compare/pr/1890894/pr/1864506/fs/28868586

54 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

Isn't it nice. "If" UL allow you to run with ECC unchecked and Hwbot force you to use it... What score do you want to pull up from the hat if others on the web want you to show your score vs theirs? 🙂

31 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

Wouldn't ECC allow you to overclock higher without the risk of artifacting, as some minor ones might be autocorrected? 

I expect the new tool (system info) + that you are forced to enable ECC will always affect max scores. There is a performance panalty up to 5 or 6%if you enable the new feature in NCP regarless what the ECC autocorrect.

57 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

Sorry, could you clarify which GeForce cards support ECC, and how to enable this? 

Haven’t the new cards but mean it’s 3090 Ti and above. Most likely a switch in NCP. 
 

No gamers should bother with this. And now you get a performance penalty if you bench for glitter and glory. 

Nice with new added professional features on gamer cards. They can be used for everything. Yeah and activating it slows down the VRAM. No need to let the vram breath. Added to the Hwbot rules today. Maybe hwbot should delete all "bugged scores" so everyone can compete under equal conditions? Or is it so that older results can have its own place at the top of the ranking board? Will/should Hwbot throw away all scores on the leaderboards from 3090 Ti and upwards because people don't want such fancy features enabled? That would be would push an outcry 🙂 Everything was a lot easier in the older days. New is always better. In all ways (sarcasm).

Microsoft tried hard make Win 11 22H2 better than the orginal released build, but as usual failed hard. So nothing new her🙂

Microsoft confirms Windows 11 Remote Desktop issue ghachs.net 

Microsoft confirmed a remote desktop issue that is affecting the company's latest operating system, Windows 11 version 22H2, today. The issue affects devices running the Windows 11 2022 Update, but not devices that run the original release version of the Windows 11 operating system nor earlier versions of Windows.

---------------------------------------------------------------

People share what they hate most about Windows 11 windowscentral.com | Today

Windows 11 didn't receive much love in our recent Twitter thread....
https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/windows-11/people-share-what-they-hate-most-about-windows-11

17 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

The elite chosen are an entitled group. In fact, I honestly don't believe CENS wanted the CPU from @tps3443for himself as much as wanting to remove it from "retail" circulation because extraordinary silicon samples diminish the fake sense of mystery and talent the chosen need to validate their position. Even the comment by Splave exposes the subtle arrogance, although it probably was not intended to send that message. He may have well said, "Nice to see a pion accidentally get lucky with retail garbage that wasn't reserved for them." Guys like you and me and @johnksss could be a very dangerous threat to the elite overclockers' status if we got our hands on silicon samples like those @tps3443has lucked out with, and they know it. They're not worried about silly gamer kids that have no idea what they have, nor should they be. They're going to be too busy bragging about their low voltage and low power draw rather than chasing world records. Even if we didn't go down the LN2 path and take their crowns away, the gap between their spots on the leaderboard and the "not chosen" riff raff would be too close for their comfort. 

Haven't the silicon winner as the elite usually get their hands on but... Me, my 13900K and H2O, baked in between LN2 cooled processors. It's also about efficiency. Higher boost clocks doesn't always help if the rest of the package don't keep up. Hwbot Global ranking wPrime - 32m 24xCPU's.......

Bro @Mr. Foxcould you do me a favor? 

1th. Run Cinebench R20 or R23 with one and two pumps. Or even a 3rd test if you have 3 pumps. Would be nice to see a possible temp difference with added pumps.

Stock clocks or your daily driver is just fine for all the different tests.

2nd. Check the water flow vs different water temperature. Run a bench with the chiller then a bench with your normal custom water cooling. The water flow should decrease when the water become quite cold. Hence testing with and without the chiller. Test with only one pump. Thanks 🙂

4 hours ago, Etern4l said:

 

Thanks, I considered Kryonaut Extreme but a lot of people say it breaks down quickly, same as Kryonaut. Would you concur? This needs to be super reliable over prolonged periods of max load, and Phobya (or at least my lucky tube) definitely fits that bill. 

 

BTW I thought you use LM? Why not anymore? 

I don't have processors a long time in the machines. And I swap parts often so I can't say how long it will last. But from what I can see from others the pink version isn't so affected as the old Grizzly Kryonaut. But I can't see much of a difference from new to the next re-paste.

Here is another great choice. Noctua NT-H2 (even H1). This paste isn't affected by it breaks down. Have used this and a good cheap option. No need to look other places if you want a good paste that will last.

I use liquid metal for laptops. Not really needed for desktops. And many here won't buy used processors where the stamp on the lid is almost gone. Same problem also apply delidded processors. How good and cool they running doesn't matter. 

Edit. It seems Jay'z can't get enough of Kryonaut Extreme😃 7:25 sek