*Official Benchmark Thread* - Post it here or it didn't happen :D

[Papusan]

It seems Nvidia and their AIB partners struggle sell their 3000 graphics cards to the miners. Now its the gamers turn. It took only 18 months. Maybe its only 6 months wait and 4000 series cards is out and this time no miners will help Nvidia to get rid of the cards at 2x MSRP. 

 

NVIDIA says GeForce RTX 30 graphics cards are now in stock, announces “Restocked & Reloaded” campaign

 

To be honest, we have never seen any such marketing campaign before. After all, it is quite strange for a GPU company to announce graphics cards ‘in stock’ nearly 18 months since these cards were released, yet here were are.

[Reciever]

1 hour ago, electrosoft said:

 

And a smaller 15" form factor versus a proper 17" chassis.....

 

 

Right right. I hope we see more development on that front. That being said AMD will need to put forward some real effort to promote and support adoption of their products. Helios 500 still never got agesa updates (iirc) or ability to upgrade cpu. 

 

I would even be highly interested in a 14" laptop and no gpu if that meant proper cooling (retaining 3 pipes and 2 fans) if the trade off is egpu for gaming. I long lamented that the AW13 R3 would've been amazing if it had no GPU and a 7820hk with the same cooling. 

 

The problem I tend to see (and I haven't had my ear to the ground for this) is price. They make the consumer pay for the capability of egpu which then makes the scenario unfeasible for most. 

 

Maybe this might change with usb4 but as everyone (including us) has seen USB standards seem to go out the window. 

 

It seems like we are regressing to the olden times where everything was proprietary. This time worse since it's proprietary functions within a standardized connection. 

[Custom90gt]

I think trading blows with the 12900KS in games at half the price and way less than 1/2 the power consumption is great. Competition is a good thing even if people, even if that competitive product doesn't have all of the features people want.

[Ashtrix]

@Papusan Zen 4 leaks are showing some bad news going forth .. we knew this is coming but now I think AMD will be even more on point.

 

Looks like AMD is tightening even further. I didn't knew until recent time that Ryzen 5000 is pretty much peak due to that 1.4v at stock, all that PBO2 does is simply unlock the Power limits. AMD added those features like - Curve Optimizer, for per core tuning, and Ryzen Master. Even that Hydra tool, too many knobs but in the end you barely can even Overclock. The voltage is already high. And only binned locked down silicon is 1.3v VCore.

 

Plus the primary reason many say AMD with PBO2 is better, well of course it's better why not because with most all core OC without great cooling esp the Temperature sensitivity that Zen architecture showcased since first Threadripper series which had 70C max, and Ryzen scalability with low heat makes the CPU lose those boosting clock of a Single Core ultimately resulting in lower performance.

 

MSI MAG B650 AM5 Motherboard Allegedly Spotted Running An AMD Ryzen 7000 ‘Zen 4’ Desktop CPU At Up To 1.532V

In contrast with Intel processors upto 10th gen, we had a lot of space to make the CPU run +300-400MHz on all 10 cores 20 Threads. 10900K good SP and Top Silicon will get the 5.2-5.3GHz up from 4.9 PL2 off to 5.3 Boost, this can be tamed on an AIO and even DH15 upto 300W (AVX / Prime 95 loads) and that's all on 1.3v. 

 

With 11th gen backport disaster the CPU was too hot to handle, it had barely any space left plus they added that Adaptive Boost which is similar to PBO2, essentially killing off Manual OC on top of disastrous  IMC binning. With 12th gen the 10nm / Intel 7 even if it's denser than TSMC 7N, struggles to cool because of high density of heat and thus making 12900K need an AIO at all costs and OC needs more cooling potential demands. Oh also pushing 1.4v VCore 24x7? that was only acceptable for long times on 11th generation processors. Not sure for 12th from what I know,  but the high SP still is in the 1.3v voltage zone for ADL processors for 5.3GHz and pushing post 5.4GHz is still at 1.4v from what I have seen a little.

 

AMD on the other hand needed high voltage on TSMC 7N, with upcoming TSMC 5N which is probably tuned for high performance for AMD x86 processors, is having 1.5x+ high voltage on VCore out of factory !! That means OC on AMD platform is 100% dead. I do not think any CPU can push over 1.6v on Air. Maybe that's why they are talking or making noise about DDR5 with AMD X Samsung to show masses here we killed OC on the CPU now consume this Memory OC.

 

 

Anyways on a side note look at the below picture, maybe that new Raptor lake 5.8GHz boost coming in Q3-Q4 shows the node is Intel 4. Wonder how much VCore will Intel push here...Intel always gave something for Overclockers and tuning, I hope they keep that spirit alive. I hate CPUs or HW which is locked down like Apple trash.

 

 

But will Intel commit on Desktop ? They want maximum profits at all costs, but perhaps they will because adding more E cores means they need to expand the power plane on existing Alder Lake which will blow a hole, so perhaps they might commit for Intel 4 on Z790 debut CPUs. Oh also Intel is debuting a new technology for RPL too that DLVR which reduces power consumption at silicon level.

 

Intel Raptor Lake’s Digital Linear Voltage Regulator (DLVR) could reduce CPU power up to 25%

[electrosoft]

lol Linus short delidding and relidding a 12900ks:

 

(-10c temp drop)

 

 

[electrosoft]

Eurocomm has announced a full Socket 1700 DTR:

 

https://videocardz.com/press-release/eurocom-announces-raptor-x15-laptop-with-up-to-intel-core-i9-12900k-16-core-desktop-cpu

 

Upsides:

 

Full 12th gen support up to 12900k. My cool hand luke pulling ~150w full tilt at stock running CB23 20min loop would probably be right at home in this.

 

Only 2x SO-DIMM slots. Less traces, less fuss, 12th gen runs best on two slots anyhow

 

DDR4 support up to 3200....hopefully trhe BIOS is unlocked a bit

 

Downsides:

 

15.6" form factor

Looks to be BGA 3070ti

 

Official thread started here: 

 

[Tenoroon]

I may be entirely wrong, but on the old forums, was there a fallout between many forum members and Eurocom? Like, did something happen that pissed a lot of people off? I can't remember exact posts and whatnot, but I remember seeing posts of people complaining about Eurocom and advising not to buy their products whenever I first joined. 

Is my mind serving me wrong or was there really shade between forum members and Eurocom? 

[Reciever]

4 minutes ago, Tenoroon said:

I may be entirely wrong, but on the old forums, was there a fallout between many forum members and Eurocom? Like, did something happen that pissed a lot of people off? I can't remember exact posts and whatnot, but I remember seeing posts of people complaining about Eurocom and advising not to buy their products whenever I first joined. 

Is my mind serving me wrong or was there really shade between forum members and Eurocom? 

They stole Prema's BIOS even after their business relationship (if there was one, Im fuzzy on the details) dissolved and actively sold it regardless.

[Clamibot]

3 hours ago, electrosoft said:

Eurocomm has announced a full Socket 1700 DTR:

 

https://videocardz.com/press-release/eurocom-announces-raptor-x15-laptop-with-up-to-intel-core-i9-12900k-16-core-desktop-cpu

 

Upsides:

 

Full 12th gen support up to 12900k. My cool hand luke pulling ~150w full tilt at stock running CB23 20min loop would probably be right at home in this.

 

Only 2x SO-DIMM slots. Less traces, less fuss, 12th gen runs best on two slots anyhow

 

DDR4 support up to 3200....hopefully trhe BIOS is unlocked a bit

 

Downsides:

 

15.6" form factor

Looks to be BGA 3070ti

 

Official thread started here: 

 

 

This seems promising for future DTRs. Unfortunately it's a 15 inch laptop, the chipset is not Z690, so no overclocking, and the GPU is BGA, but at least the effort in this class of laptops is continuing.

 

This means we should probably see a successor to the X170SM-G and X170KM-G, hopefully in the same chassis.

[Rage Set]

3 hours ago, Tenoroon said:

I may be entirely wrong, but on the old forums, was there a fallout between many forum members and Eurocom? Like, did something happen that pissed a lot of people off? I can't remember exact posts and whatnot, but I remember seeing posts of people complaining about Eurocom and advising not to buy their products whenever I first joined. 

Is my mind serving me wrong or was there really shade between forum members and Eurocom? 

 

Yeah, I personally wouldn't touch Eurocom after all of the issues with my former F5 when another NBR member purchased it from me and tried getting a warranty replacement. They finally replaced the F5 for him after weeks of back and forth. My F5 even had an extended warranty. I think it is because I had a custom Prema BIOS on it.

 

I didn't even know there was a fallout between Eurocom and Prema. I didn't even know they offered Prema BIOS. The only company I thought at the time had it was HIDevolution. Another major reason for me to never consider them. 

[electrosoft]

1 minute ago, Rage Set said:

 

Yeah, I personally wouldn't touch Eurocom after all of the issues with my former F5 when another NBR member purchased it from me and tried getting a warranty replacement. They finally replaced the F5 for him after weeks of back and forth. My F5 even had an extended warranty. I think it is because I had a custom Prema BIOS on it.

 

I didn't even know there was a fallout between Eurocom and Prema. I didn't even know they offered Prema BIOS. The only company I thought at the time had it was HIDevolution. Another major reason for me to never consider them. 

 

I'm hoping they aren't the only ones who will offer this model. Maybe look and see what XMG and a few others have to say. But if Eurocomm is the only one offering it....well it is what it is. 😭

 

I agree Eurocomm's track record wasn't great and it was an individual user who was trusted who took Prema's BIOS and abused it for his own gains along with the Eurocomm debacle.

 

[electrosoft]

Last day to pick up the 12900ks from Best Buy so I did. It was launch day, first sellout batch from BB I ordered and was sitting there since last Fridday

 

(takes deep breath of KS container).... Mmmmm I can smell the SP84 sitting inside 😁

 

I'll pop it in later tonight or tomorrow but my track record with bad bins from Best Buy is pretty epic. Only decent chip I got from them over all these years was that golden 5800x. Every other chip has been pretty mediocre. Including the worst 11900k and 12900k CPUs out of all the chips I tested.

 

 

 

[Papusan]

7 hours ago, electrosoft said:

Eurocomm has announced a full Socket 1700 DTR:

 

https://videocardz.com/press-release/eurocom-announces-raptor-x15-laptop-with-up-to-intel-core-i9-12900k-16-core-desktop-cpu

 

Upsides:

 

Full 12th gen support up to 12900k. My cool hand luke pulling ~150w full tilt at stock running CB23 20min loop would probably be right at home in this.

 

Only 2x SO-DIMM slots. Less traces, less fuss, 12th gen runs best on two slots anyhow

 

DDR4 support up to 3200....hopefully trhe BIOS is unlocked a bit

 

Downsides:

 

15.6" form factor

Looks to be BGA 3070ti

 

Official thread started here: 

 

This doesn't look promising. BGA graphics and castrated unlocked desktop Cpu. Worst from both worlds. On top from Eurocom. And why buy an hybrid laptop (BGA+LGA)? These bench numbers from Eurocom is disgusting. The cpu probably cook/boil into this 15 inch chassis. What a waste of silicon. And what a waste of money.

 

You should edit the upsides vs. downsides. I can not see anything that fits into the former sentence.

[Reciever]

2 hours ago, Rage Set said:

 

Yeah, I personally wouldn't touch Eurocom after all of the issues with my former F5 when another NBR member purchased it from me and tried getting a warranty replacement. They finally replaced the F5 for him after weeks of back and forth. My F5 even had an extended warranty. I think it is because I had a custom Prema BIOS on it.

 

I didn't even know there was a fallout between Eurocom and Prema. I didn't even know they offered Prema BIOS. The only company I thought at the time had it was HIDevolution. Another major reason for me to never consider them. 

In an effort to twist the knife, they didnt disclose that it was Prema's work, just that it was a custom BIOS.

[Tenoroon]

31 minutes ago, Reciever said:

In an effort to twist the knife, they didnt disclose that it was Prema's work, just that it was a custom BIOS.

Is this what ultimately pushed Prema into privatizing his BIOS's or was it a mix of other people and Eurocom which led him to make the decision.

Sorry if I'm a bit nosy, but there are some things I haven't been able to piece together from the old forums. Nothing against Prema's actions either, his work is owned by him, and he can make whatever decision he wants. Lots of respect to the guy, making BIOS's doesn't seem like the easiest task 🙂

[electrosoft]

1 hour ago, Tenoroon said:

Is this what ultimately pushed Prema into privatizing his BIOS's or was it a mix of other people and Eurocom which led him to make the decision.

Sorry if I'm a bit nosy, but there are some things I haven't been able to piece together from the old forums. Nothing against Prema's actions either, his work is owned by him, and he can make whatever decision he wants. Lots of respect to the guy, making BIOS's doesn't seem like the easiest task 🙂

 

I remember it being both. He would give his BIOS to individuals under the agreement they don't sell, modify or share it and one POS did exactly that. Tack on the Eurocom debacle and....yeah.

 

 

[electrosoft]

3 hours ago, Papusan said:

This doesn't look promising. BGA graphics and castrated unlocked desktop Cpu. Worst from both worlds. On top from Eurocom. And why buy an hybrid laptop (BGA+LGA)? These bench numbers from Eurocom is disgusting. The cpu probably cook/boil into this 15 inch chassis. What a waste of silicon. And what a waste of money.

 

You should edit the upsides vs. downsides. I can not see anything that fits into the former sentence.

 

Now you know almost every laptop (and plenty of desktops) that roll off the line get subpar scores till they are released into the wild and we get our hands on them and tune them up good and proper. 😁

 

With that being said, that is a full fat 12700k in there obviously throttling. It is scoring lower than my 10900k in my X170SM-G. It's going to need some work, stat. Remember X170SM's and even X170KMs even now still throttle like crazy without proper TLC. Users in the old X170KM-G forums kept saying it couldn't be tamed with an 11900k till I tamed one with an 11900k (a faulty X170KM-G at that) and had it running properly. Even now, an owner of an X170SM-G in the X170SM-G forums just sent his back to get it looked at from Eluktronics because his 10900k was throttling and his 3Dmark CPU score was under 10k when it should be around 14k. What I'm saying is those issues can most likely be addressed and fixed. That's what we've always done in the Notebook forums.

 

As for the GPU.... 🙄

 

I'm not sure what they or we can do in regards to the GPU if all that is being offered now is non MXM solutions but only BGA options then what? At least with flexible memory and CPU we remove two points of known failure but I agree I am not a fan at all of the soldered on GPU in any way, shape or form.

 

I'd still take this hybrid DTR over the completely soldered BGA laptops that are out there instead though.

 

 

[Reciever]

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/74309332?

 

My best run tonight after modding additional cooling potential to the P750FM. It seems my scenario is not going to break any records. 😛

 

What do you guys think? Decent performer?

[Mr. Fox]

5 hours ago, Reciever said:

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/74309332?

 

My best run tonight after modding additional cooling potential to the P750FM. It seems my scenario is not going to break any records. 😛

 

What do you guys think? Decent performer?

Since I have essentially ignored laptops for several years due to lack of interest, it is almost impossible for me to identify "decent" mobile performance on face value. But, the numbers shows that you are the Fire Strike world record holder for 9700F and mobile 1080. Your closest competitor is an MSI notebook that trails you by roughly 800 points.

 

3DMark Fire Strike Ranking Results

[Mr. Fox]

17 hours ago, electrosoft said:

I'm not sure what they or we can do in regards to the GPU if all that is being offered now is non MXM solutions but only BGA options then what? At least with flexible memory and CPU we remove two points of known failure but I agree I am not a fan at all of the soldered on GPU in any way, shape or form.

 

I'd still take this hybrid DTR over the completely soldered BGA laptops that are out there instead though.

The solution is to boycott everything and say no with your wallet. It probably won't matter because we are seriously outnumbered by idiots. Those idiots are the reason the rest of us are screwed. Surrendering isn't a good option though. Calling something good simply because it is the least screwed up option makes being better less relevant. It is a misuse of the word good and a falsehood that perpetuates mediocrity and normalizes suckiness.

 

Choosing between full and partial BGA is like choosing between two incurable fatal diseases. Better to spend less and expect less than to pay top dollar for permafilth. If you find yourself stuck with having to settle for mobile garbage, spend as little as possible on it and set the bar at basic computing functionality and it won't hurt quite as bad as spending a lot on a disposable soldered piece of crap.

[Custom90gt]

Rolling the dice on a 12900k that I picked up used for a reasonable price.  We will see if it's a reasonable overclocker. 

[Mr. Fox]

16 hours ago, electrosoft said:

I'll pop it in later tonight or tomorrow but my track record with bad bins from Best Buy is pretty epic.

Did you have a chance to see if it is a keeper or a defective sample RMA candidate?

 

What do you say to Best Buy when you return lousy silicon samples for a refund? (Curious what you tell them.) Do they give you any crap or resistance?

[Rage Set]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

Did you have a chance to see if it is a keeper or a defective sample RMA candidate?

 

What do you say to Best Buy when you return lousy silicon samples for a refund? (Curious what you tell them.) Do they give you any crap or resistance?

 

Best Buy normally returns anything (except for cameras) but they do have a secret (not really secret anymore) buyer/shopper scoring system. So if you return a lot more than you keep, they stop you stone cold. 

[electrosoft]

2 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

The ony solution is to boycott everything and say no with your wallet. It probably won't matter because we are seriously outnumbered by idiots. Those idiots are the reason the rest of us are screwed. Surrendering isn't a good option though. Calling something good simply because it is the least screwed up option makes being better less relevant. It is a misuse of the word good and a falsehood that perpetuates mediocrity and normalizes suckiness.

 

Choosing between full and partial BGA is like choosing between two incurable fatal diseases. Better to spend less and expect less than to pay top dollar for permafilth. If you find yourself stuck with having to settle for mobile garbage, spend as little as possible on it and set the bar at basic computing functionality and it won't hurt quite as bad as spending a lot on a disposable soldered piece of crap.

 

We've reached a point of no return and BGA only solutions have run away with just about everything. Boycotting will just be the final nail in the coffin as they will simply even stop making hybrids even and everything will just be BGA.

 

The general (m)asses have fully embraced BGA as the only solution but I guess inversely the market speaks and it is what they preferred when given a choice as at one point beefy notebooks held equal if not more market share but the bean counters could see which direction the market was flowing.

 

Outside of removable graphics, this is just like the previous models. I see plenty of copper and I like the 2x SO-DIMM design. It's a painful pill to swallow but nothing is soldered on except the GPU. It is nails on a chalkboard to me but there are literally zero, realistic means to reverse the flow:

 

Numerous real laptops, small selection of T&L

T&L draws parity with real laptops

T&L dominates, real laptop options start to dry up

All the real beefy laptop makers abandon their true DTRs except for Clevo who still offers multiple models

Clevo only issues one true DTR

Clevo issues an almost DTR except for BGA graphics

 

I do hope the X15 is a portend of a refresh for a 17" model with modular everything but I'm not holding my breath.

 

If the X15 can be tamed with binned silicon and all the normal tricks of the trade even at stock settings a 12900k in there will blow away every other notebook out there by a long shot.

 

Depending on what the TDP of the cooling solution (which by appearances is clearly skewed to cool the CPU), you toss in a 12900k that naturally runs cool at stock and can be massively UV it has potential.

 

 

 

 

[electrosoft]

1 hour ago, Custom90gt said:

Rolling the dice on a 12900k that I picked up used for a reasonable price.  We will see if it's a reasonable overclocker. 

 

Good luck! Let us know the good, the bad or the ugly. 🙄