*Official Benchmark Thread* - Post it here or it didn't happen :D

[electrosoft]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

 

What system are we talking about? What it this ITX board?

 

The board I sold to you. I had a 980 Pro 1TB in there I was using and after I broke everything down for selling to the three buyers, I took the spare drive and upgraded my daughter's system from a 500GB no name M.2 to the 1tb 980 Pro since she only had ~20GB left of space from her Steam games and WoW.

 

@tps3443 was asking for my settings when I tuned 8000 awhile ago and after looking through some of my USB drives, I realized I left them on the desktop of the drive which is now formatted with a cloned copy of my daughter's original 500GB nestled snug in her desktop. 🙂

 

 

[Mr. Fox]

8 hours ago, electrosoft said:

 

The board I sold to you. I had a 980 Pro 1TB in there I was using and after I broke everything down for selling to the three buyers, I took the spare drive and upgraded my daughter's system from a 500GB no name M.2 to the 1tb 980 Pro since she only had ~20GB left of space from her Steam games and WoW.

 

@tps3443 was asking for my settings when I tuned 8000 awhile ago and after looking through some of my USB drives, I realized I left them on the desktop of the drive which is now formatted with a cloned copy of my daughter's original 500GB nestled snug in her desktop. 🙂

 

 

Cool, I thought that might be the case. I just tuned this cheap G.SKILL 7200 kit to 8000 stable last night. I can't tighten the timings futher because it gets INSANELY hot with the crappy stock heating blankets. But, pushing 80°C in a TM5 test without errors is definitely stable. The low CPU voltage requirements on this chip is nice, but still a bit much for a 360 AIO to manage. Delid will help. It will be interesting to see how this CPU runs bare die in one of the Apex systems with much better thermals.

 

@tps3443 here is what I managed in spite of the scortching temps. This is with a crazy loud Noctua fan blowing a ton of high-speed air onto the RAM sticks. I am impressed that such a small mobo with only as many phases (only 10 phases) as they can cram onto this baby-sized PCB can do this without bursting into flames or exploding. @Rage Set maybe you can do the same with yours, bro.

[Papusan]

Not Cablemod this time😁

 

 

Faulty 12V2x6 connector found with RTX 4080 Super card

 

Igor's Lab determined the root cause of the issue, and says the PCI-SIG specifications for the 12V2x6 connector do not specify the exact dimensions of the connector itself, leaving cable manufacturers to do whatever they want. PCI-SIG specifies the header length, width, and height. Apparently, at least one manufacturer who builds Nvidia's 12V2x6 adapters messed up badly in the quality control department, potentially leading to some batches being defective — or at least, Igor received a defective adapter with one card. Regardless, if you happen to purchase a new RTX 40-series graphics card that includes any 16-pin adapter, it's important to ensure it fully 'clicks' into place.

 

RTX 4080 Super teardown sheds light on power connector controversy

A teardown of the Palit GeForce RTX 4080 Super GamingPro OC revealed spacing on the PCB for two 8-pin PCIe power connectors. Curiously, the empty area is right next to the 12VHPWR power connector, almost as if using the connector was a decision after the original design. Although PCI-SIG has improved the design of the 12VHPWR power connector for enhanced safety, there is still a bit of fear surrounding the revised 12V-2x6 power connector, especially after the original one was the star of the meltdown fiasco on the flagship GeForce RTX 4090.

 

[Rage Set]

4 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

Cool, I thought that might be the case. I just tuned this cheap G.SKILL 7200 kit to 8000 stable last night. I can't tighten the timings futher because it gets INSANELY hot with the crappy stock heating blankets. But, pushing 80°C in a TM5 test without errors is definitely stable. The low CPU voltage requirements on this chip is nice, but still a bit much for a 360 AIO to manage. Delid will help. It will be interesting to see how this CPU runs bare die in one of the Apex systems with much better thermals.

 

@tps3443 here is what I managed in spite of the scortching temps. This is with a crazy loud Noctua fan blowing a ton of high-speed air onto the RAM sticks. I am impressed that such a small mobo with only as many stages as they can cram onto this baby-sized PCB can do this without bursting into flames or exploding. @Rage Set maybe you can do the same with yours, bro.

 

I am going to swap out the G.Skill I used for my review and add in the RAM I got from you. I'll tell you how far I can get. 

[tps3443]

Didn't @johnksss buy a Mercedes-Benz from him? What a shame he passed away. He was really great in "The Mandalorian" I was looking forward to Season 3 Mando. 😭He was really one of my favorite characters in the show..

[electrosoft]

1 hour ago, tps3443 said:

Didn't @johnksss buy a Mercedes-Benz from him? What a shame he passed away. He was really great in "The Mandalorian" I was looking forward to Season 3 Mando. 😭He was really one of my favorite characters in the show..

 

For those of us a bit more seasoned, Carl Weathers was a childhood and teenage icon from Rocky to Action Jackson and Predator and more. Seeing him in The Mandalorian was just the icing on the cake.

 

 

[Mr. Fox]

2 hours ago, tps3443 said:

Didn't @johnksss buy a Mercedes-Benz from him?

Yes, he sure did.

On 3/2/2023 at 10:01 PM, johnksss said:

@Mr. Fox

My new to me ride.

That's who I bought it from.

 

The other one...

 

[Etern4l]

On 2/1/2024 at 5:13 PM, Mr. Fox said:

Yeah, that really does suck and I am absolutely opposed to it. I don't have a problem with a software company (games or any other kind of software) making money. I want them to or they will go out of business. But, I don't want them to milk me for money after the sale. I view that as being dishonest and will generally choose to go with another solution or just do without and not buy anything from them. Games should be inexpensive. Making them free and charging for the add-ons needed to make the experience a good one is a dishonest shell game. I say figure out how much you need to charge to turn a profit giving all of the features and functions as standard, charge that for it and say take it or leave it. If I want it and it is priced right I will buy it. If not, I won't. And, if I know I am going to be milked to death I sure as hell won't. Selling DLC, skins, add-ons, etc. is a scummy way to make a sale that keeps on selling.

To see where things are headed one needs to look at the most profitable gaming sector: mobile. The top grossing games there rake in hundreds of millions per year in microtransactions. The mobile nature of the platform means the game is always on, players are forced to engagement and addiction through a number of psychological tricks widely used by the tech industry (TikTok etc), as detailed here:

 

https://www.darkpattern.games/
 

Many of those games should be just banned outright on unregulated gambling grounds.

All of them are Pay-To-Win, with the freemium model just there to suck people in. After a while a victim is put in a situation where they have to pay money to be competitive. People end up dropping sometimes tens of thousands on a mobile game, in addition to wasting years of their life grinding. Some of the games are designed such that there are serious penalties for not playing to schedule. People get kicked out of guilds after one day of inactivity.

 

This is the direction rotten EA and Activision/Blizzard will no doubt keep pushing on the PC/console front. If people are prepared to pay sometimes serious money for virtual cosmetics and status (some were spending thousands on CSGO skins at the time I opted out from that brain cancer), how much might they pay for actual competitive advantages? I mean to some extent there has been element of that on the PC side, where people have been buying faster HW and better monitors to boost FPS into 200-300+ range, which definitely helps in many MP games, but that’s not remotely on the level of the boost some of the P2W features provide.

 

Same as in the other areas, we are effectively voting with our wallets. Spending any money on microtransactions, and frankly just engaging with products which offer them, is just going to reinforce the drive in that direction.

 

The problem is that people’s free will is actually quite limited. We are driven by habits, which those endless multiplayer games seek to build up and exploit.

 

On 2/1/2024 at 8:37 PM, tps3443 said:

This 4080 Super completely stock, auto silent fan profile, 100% power limit, and it is still 15% faster than my full tilt RTX3090 KP.

 

I managed to gain another 8% more performance with an improved fan curve, increased power limit, +1375 mem, and +185 core. 
 

So +23% faster in rasterization over my water chilled 3090KP is pretty darn good! 😃

 

@tps3443

+23% as measured how?

 

In your video you said you observed a jump from 50+ to 70+ in Witcher 3 st 4K. Did you measure this in any reproducible way? TPU provide very different figures: 145 for 3090 Ti (which is what your 3090 KP was and then some) vs 165 for 4080S. +14%

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/msi-geforce-rtx-4080-super-expert/30.html

 

(sorry for the 2-post)
 

 

[ryan]

 I think GTA 6 and what they do with the PC version like updated textures VR support ect will be either the nail in the coffin for PC gaming or breath new life into the grandpa of gaming

[electrosoft]

5 hours ago, Etern4l said:

To see where things are headed one needs to look at the most profitable gaming sector: mobile. The top grossing games there rake in hundreds of millions per year in microtransactions. The mobile nature of the platform means the game is always on, players are forced to engagement and addiction through a number of psychological tricks widely used by the tech industry (TikTok etc), as detailed here:

 

https://www.darkpattern.games/
 

Many of those games should be just banned outright on unregulated gambling grounds.

All of them are Pay-To-Win, with the freemium model just there to suck people in. After a while a victim is put in a situation where they have to pay money to be competitive. People end up dropping sometimes tens of thousands on a mobile game, in addition to wasting years of their life grinding. Some of the games are designed such that there are serious penalties for not playing to schedule. People get kicked out of guilds after one day of inactivity.

 

This is the direction rotten EA and Activision/Blizzard will no doubt keep pushing on the PC/console front. If people are prepared to pay sometimes serious money for virtual cosmetics and status (some were spending thousands on CSGO skins at the time I opted out from that brain cancer), how much might they pay for actual competitive advantages? I mean to some extent there has been element of that on the PC side, where people have been buying faster HW and better monitors to boost FPS into 200-300+ range, which definitely helps in many MP games, but that’s not remotely on the level of the boost some of the P2W features provide.

 

Same as in the other areas, we are effectively voting with our wallets. Spending any money on microtransactions, and frankly just engaging with products which offer them, is just going to reinforce the drive in that direction.

 

The problem is that people’s free will is actually quite limited. We are driven by habits, which those endless multiplayer games seek to build up and exploit.

 

Or leave free will and choice in place as there are plenty who can just choose not to use P2W, purchase cosmetics or walk away when they want / limit gaming time which is exactly what I do. I talk a lot about WoW and Fallout 76, but I only play 2-3 hours and not everyday. I routinely skip multiple days or in some cases weeks. You don't ban or enact even more laws to fix the "problem" of humans selecting bad vices that are detrimental to their well being. If that was the case, we'd also ban chewing tobacco, caffeine, alcohol, cigarettes, sugar, gambling and more....

 

I see absolutely nothing wrong with cosmetic items. *I* think they're stupid and a waste of money, but who am I to tell someone else how they want their onscreen avatars to look? Then again, I think blowing wads of cash on fancy cars, overkill sized houses, jewelry, designer shoes, sneakers and clothes is a colossal waste of money but yet again....personal preference. I'm a hardware junkie but that's my personal preference and I've had friends or family (same ones spending gobsmackingly large amounts of money on virtual items and wasteful designer items) wonder why I do.

 

I do draw the line at P2W, but it is what it and has been around in some way, shape or form in gaming since the 90's (Diablo II, EQ, etc...). I even remember people spending real money to get items from other players in AOL's Neverwinter Nights multiplayer in the early 90's.

 

I do think for children, some protective measure might need to be put into place more than what are currently active the same as are in place for all the other vices listed above. In regards to children, there is also a large degree of parental accountability too.

 

3 hours ago, Etern4l said:

@tps3443

+23% as measured how?

 

In your video you said you observed a jump from 50+ to 70+ in Witcher 3 st 4K. Did you measure this in any reproducible way? TPU provide very different figures: 145 for 3090 Ti (which is what your 3090 KP was and then some) vs 165 for 4080S. +14%

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/msi-geforce-rtx-4080-super-expert/30.html

 

(sorry for the 2-post)
 

 

 

That is a good question what metrics were used to derive +23%.

 

50+ to 70+ is a little vague I'll admit (50+ could be anything greater than 50, same as 70+) maybe with a *touch* of excitement of a new card but I don't think you can fairly classify a 3090 as a 3090ti with an OC. I also think TPUs  numbers are a little suspect vs their relative performance chart with the 3090 vs the 3090ti. Hub has the performance of the 3090 vs the 3090ti at ~3% at 1080p up to a max of ~10% at 4k. When I compared my KPE 3090 vs my KPE 3090ti stock for stock, it was about 8% on average across games and synthetics (one of the reasons I sold it in the face of 4090 early testing which just decimated it).

 

Back to @tps3443 and his MSI 4080 Super....

 

He overclocked his 4080 Super just like he overclocked his 3090. I'm sure he got more out of his 3090 though being a KPE and on chilled water and Ampere being a bit more overclockable than ADA along with his MSI not having a great cooler (one of the lesser ones actually overall).

 

This is also a case of never compare OC A vs non-OC A or especially OC A vs non-OC B and declare them the same (I've had this same argument with @tps3443 before). Use stock and go from there of what the card actually is which is a 3090. The 3090ti also has ~2.4% (!) more shaders, higher base/boost clock (irrelevant to a degree with boosting technologies) and slightly higher clocked memory.

 

In the same vein, while looking at TPU charts for stock to stock comparisons, the 4080 Super has a healthy uplift over the 3090. Quite honestly, more than I expected before clicking. I'm pleasantly surprised.

 

On average (across all their games tested as YMMV based on individual games tested):

 

4080 Super vs 3090

---------------------

1080p ~+28%

1440p ~+31%

4k       ~+29.4%

---------------------

 

4080 Super vs 3090ti

---------------------

1080p ~+18.5%

1440p ~+18.9%

4k        ~+15%

Then you have this from their 3090ti architecture page:

 

 

 

----------------------------

 

One last note, looking at their results vs the myriad of 4k results on the OCN forums, here and personal testing, I can almost guarantee their hardware hasn't been dialed in and that 4090 is CPU bound in a lot of those results especially at 4k which routinely happens to 4090 owners (present company included) even with dialed in and tuned hardware.

 

Last January, watching my 3080 and 7900xtx peg to 100% in WoW (did you know I play WoW? I don't know if I mentioned it before....) at 4k then watching the 4090 sit at well below 100% utilization on average even at 4k ultra (while still trouncing both) along with Fallout 76 sitting even lower on the 4090 at 4k ultra let me know it was time to upgrade my CPU stat. 🙂

 

As I mentioned in my other WoW benchmark post, the X3D and 13900KS helped to feed the 4090 even more with boosted results that separated it from the 3080 and 7900XTX even more, but I was still seeing more GPU under utilization more often than not overall at 4k.

 

Probably a few years from now with CPU and memory advances, we'll revisit this topic and you will see the 4090's lead over the 4080 Super and 7900XTX will continue to grow at 4k as it will finally be properly GPU bound in the majority of tests close to across the board just as the X3D and 13900KS/14900K started to make a more sustained dent in the 4090's utilization at 4k.

 

If I was a 1440p gamer, I wouldn't even consider the 4090. I'd pick up a 4080 Super or a 7900XTX when the prices adjust. It usually takes 4k to really separate the 4090 from the pack where it is still sometimes CPU bound.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Fox]

1 hour ago, electrosoft said:

You don't ban or enact even more laws to fix the "problem" of humans selecting bad vices that are detrimental to their well being. If that was the case, we'd also ban chewing tobacco, caffeine, alcohol, cigarettes, sugar, gambling and more....

Amen to that. Less government, less regulation and more autonomy is the solution, not more. We already have too many laws that we shouldn't have, don't need to have, and don't enforce those that should be. Over-regulation and governmental overreach is one of the reasons why things are as screwed up as they are. It applies to technology as well as nearly every other aspect of our lives.

[Rage Set]

A small plug for anyone looking at SFF. https://reviews.extremehw.net/cases/cooler-master-ncore-100-max-review/

 

Custom watercooling would be a difficult but interesting project for this case. If I were to use an external rad, it may defeat the purpose of this case. However, I am looking into my options. 

[Mr. Fox]

1 hour ago, Rage Set said:

A small plug for anyone looking at SFF. https://reviews.extremehw.net/cases/cooler-master-ncore-100-max-review/

 

Custom watercooling would be a difficult but interesting project for this case. If I were to use an external rad, it may defeat the purpose of this case. However, I am looking into my options. 

Excellent review, brother. Very detailed and professionally written. It does not look like Enterprise has created the associated thread yet. Once he has I will post there.

 

It would be interesting to see a 360 radiator mounted to the outside of it. Or, a completely self-contained custom loop like my other desktops. I cannot tell if there is a good place to have tubing exiting that chassis. It looks really good though. Seems they put a lot of thought into the design of it.

  

2 hours ago, electrosoft said:

If I was a 1440p gamer, I wouldn't even consider the 4090. I'd pick up a 4080 Super or a 7900XTX when the prices adjust. It usually takes 4k to really separate the 4090 from the pack where it is still sometimes CPU bound.

Looks like the 4080 Super is going to be as scarce as the 4090. Sold out everywhere other than the dishonest Amazon scalpers ready to screw anyone dumb enough to fall for it. There was a PNY 4080S for $999 that the seller has jacked the price up $150, probably because he saw his peers are screwing the Amazon customers irrational enough to pay more than MSRP for a GPU. They're basically selling 4080S for the 4090 MSRP. Seems there is never a shortage of stupid people willing to act like an idiot with their wallets. It isn't "what the market bears" so much as what morons are willing to allow scalpers to get away with.

 

Like Forest Gump said...

 

[Raiderman]

@electrosoftNot sure if you mentioned it, or knew about the new bios. Thought I would go ahead and mention it. Dated 1/26

https://us.msi.com/Motherboard/MPG-X670E-CARBON-WIFI/support

[Mr. Fox]

4 hours ago, Rage Set said:

However, I am looking into my options. 

It is sized right for a living room TV PC/console replacement. My little hotbox would be good for that, too.

[Papusan]

6 hours ago, electrosoft said:

I see absolutely nothing wrong with cosmetic items. *I* think they're stupid and a waste of money, but who am I to tell someone else how they want their onscreen avatars to look? Then again, I think blowing wads of cash on fancy cars, overkill sized houses, jewelry, designer shoes, sneakers and clothes is a colossal waste of money but yet again....personal preference.

 

That's people with money. But much of the games with such sucky items is pushed towards the young ones. And be you sure... Many will be tricked into paying for something they don't understand the range of. They don't even need to be stupid... They are often dragged in by others/friends and this will only worsen. You being hooked into something you can't come out from. I hate such business practice. Not all have parents that can see how it works. And can enlightening them.

[electrosoft]

16 hours ago, Papusan said:

 

That's people with money. But much of the games with such sucky items is pushed towards the young ones. And be you sure... Many will be tricked into paying for something they don't understand the range of. They don't even need to be stupid... They are often dragged in by others/friends and this will only worsen. You being hooked into something you can't come out from. I hate such business practice. Not all have parents that can see how it works. And can enlightening them.

 

I agree with this 100%😞

 

That's one of the reasons I ended my post before with, "I do think for children, some protective measure might need to be put into place more than what are currently active the same as are in place for all the other vices listed above. In regards to children, there is also a large degree of parental accountability too. "

 

But what happens if the parents do not understand the technological jump that comes so intuitively to the current generation of kids?

 

 

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Raiderman said:

@electrosoftNot sure if you mentioned it, or knew about the new bios. Thought I would go ahead and mention it. Dated 1/26

https://us.msi.com/Motherboard/MPG-X670E-CARBON-WIFI/support

 

Nope, I didn't see it I'll have to snag it and take a looksy, thanks bro! (Now that 'ole Bessy Lou is up and running like a well oiled machine)

 

 

 

 

[Papusan]

7 minutes ago, electrosoft said:

 

I agree with this 100%😞

 

That's one of the reasons I ended my post before with, "I do think for children, some protective measure might need to be put into place more than what are currently active the same as are in place for all the other vices listed above. In regards to children, there is also a large degree of parental accountability too. "

 

But what happens if the parents do not understand the technological jump that comes to intuitively to the current generation of kids?

 

 

 

 

 

Yep. I read your whole post and saw what you meant.

 

I think a lot help if they can explain the value of money. Much in the technological jump can be compared to real life. Everything cost money. Teach their children what's right and whats wrong. My own childeren grew up in the era of internet and sub/payments for everything. They suck up everything from all places. From games to the dreaded sosial media. You can come a long way as parents with basic understanding. And talk with you children. Thats the most important part in this. You don't need to understand everything that happen now in the tech world 🙂

[Mr. Fox]

53 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

It is sized right for a living room TV PC/console replacement. My little hotbox would be good for that, too.

it is sized right for that, but it just doesn't "feel" right. It feels like something is wrong using it this way.

[Raiderman]

I'll just leave this here. @chew 💪👊

 

 

14 hours ago, Raiderman said:

I'll just leave this here. @chew 💪👊

 

Our friend @chew just validated #3 in the world at 11298mhz. The guru of ram😄

https://valid.x86.fr/qj9ab1?fbclid=IwAR0eJxDaOjhzkbBWEVYDrL0kgs9rtav7NtnNS751U-SlnkKhoa4HmuDbSaQ

 

[jaybee83]

On 2/3/2024 at 5:22 AM, tps3443 said:

Didn't @johnksss buy a Mercedes-Benz from him? What a shame he passed away. He was really great in "The Mandalorian" I was looking forward to Season 3 Mando. 😭He was really one of my favorite characters in the show..

 

damn, thats unexpected....were slowly coming into that age where we see famous ppl and also some friends and family leaving us, ugh....sux. what did he die from, just old age or smth else?

 

btw, totally get your situation with building a new home man, no worries. got your prios straight 🙂 

 

on an unrelated note: got myself a fuil set of sanding paper with various grits, gonna use those now to properly shorten the plastic standoffs of my AM5 AiO bracket. to refresh your minds: this is to make proper contact with the ThermalGrizzly custom IHS, since its about 2mm lower in Z height than the stock IHS.

my first try failed, after i shortened the standoffs by "sawing" them off with a sharp knife. unfortunately, the results were too uneven, currently getting around 2C higher than full stock. its not enough for me to worry about everyday operation, but of course this is not why i got the custom IHS 😄 in any case, im hoping slow and even sanding will help me get a nice even finish. fingers crossed guys!

[Rage Set]

On 2/3/2024 at 4:19 PM, Mr. Fox said:

Excellent review, brother. Very detailed and professionally written. It does not look like Enterprise has created the associated thread yet. Once he has I will post there.

 

It would be interesting to see a 360 radiator mounted to the outside of it. Or, a completely self-contained custom loop like my other desktops. I cannot tell if there is a good place to have tubing exiting that chassis. It looks really good though. Seems they put a lot of thought into the design of it.

 

 

Thank you bro. It is a great SFF case. How I would envision a custom loop is to use the GPU bay for the reservoir or custom made distro-plate with a D5 pump. It has the expansion mode that would open up possibilities. I am going to keep researching and see if I want to go down this rabbit hole. 

[Papusan]

On 1/9/2024 at 3:22 AM, electrosoft said:

Now if you really want to be a proper MSI shill like myself

 

See/listening from... 8:23 - Or from 8:45 😑

 

Msi RTX 4090 Suprim X. Premium Graphics cards are nothing special. 

 

 

Regarding shuddy/questionable quality. Will EK's new direct die AIO fail equal hard as their EK Direct Die custom water block? 

 

EK Direct Die AiO CPU cooler yields ‘impressive results’ - 13900KS temperatures can be 20 degrees better than air cooler (both tested with liquid metal)...

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cooling/ek-direct-die-aio-cpu-cooler-yields-impressive-results-13900ks-temperatures-can-be-20-degrees-better-than-stock

[electrosoft]

19 minutes ago, Papusan said:

 

See/listening from... 8:23 - Or from 8:45 😑

 

Msi RTX 4090 Suprim X. Premium Graphics cards are nothing special. 

 

 

Ohhhh, look at all those extra premium stages! MSI over-engineering at its best. 🙂

 

"As you can imagine PREMIUM and CHEAP get damaged in the same way" -NWR

 

Seriously though, with the way 4090s went, I can see the logic buying a $1600 MSRP model and calling it a day and avoiding over priced HOF, MSI and Asus cards unless you specifically are targeting a particular model for personal reasons.

 

 

[Papusan]

8 minutes ago, electrosoft said:

 

Ohhhh, look at all those extra premium stages! MSI over-engineering at its best. 🙂

 

Seriously though, with the way 4090s went, I can see the logic buying a $1600 MSRP model and calling it a day and avoiding over priced HOF, MSI and Asus cards unless you specifically are targeting a particular model for personal reasons.

 

 

 

Yup, those premium stages may help if you x-flash Galax 660W vbios. But for gaming... They don't help much. With no XOC/Galax vbios you can just buy whatever float your boat. Don't be surprised that Nvidia is able to totally stop X-flashing with next gen graphics cards.

 

Same with new modern motherboards. They are overbuilt to max out profits. Solder on $50 more expensive components then charge the tripple of the add3d extra cost.