Nvidia Lovelace AD102 RTX 4090 to have 800W power limit, Laptop variants tamed at 175 W

[1610ftw]

1 hour ago, VEGGIM said:

I'm confused by this statement.  Since gpus don't have sockets they are soldered but connected to a pcie slot board.

That's what I meant with adaptation period - would be nice if they could go on a socket like CPUs.

Not that I expect this to happen but it would be great for serviceability, upgradeability and to keep costs of spare parts down - all good reasons for manufacturers NOT to do it 😄

 

[VEGGIM]

41 minutes ago, 1610ftw said:

That's what I meant with adaptation period - would be nice if they could go on a socket like CPUs.

Not that I expect this to happen but it would be great for serviceability, upgradeability and to keep costs of spare parts down - all good reasons for manufacturers NOT to do it 😄

 

OK that's just impossible. Gpus have so much components in them it just doesn't work. With vram, moffsetts and other stuff on a single board. A cpu can be socketed cuz it's more simpler but a gpu. That's something else entirely.

[jaybee83]

16 minutes ago, VEGGIM said:

OK that's just impossible. Gpus have so much components in them it just doesn't work. With vram, moffsetts and other stuff on a single board. A cpu can be socketed cuz it's more simpler but a gpu. That's something else entirely.

well...depends. cpus also need mobo based mosfets and depend on system ram. if you do the same for the gpu, i.e. provide the mosfets on the mobo and socketable vram....why not? 😁

[1610ftw]

58 minutes ago, VEGGIM said:

OK that's just impossible. Gpus have so much components in them it just doesn't work. With vram, moffsetts and other stuff on a single board. A cpu can be socketed cuz it's more simpler but a gpu. That's something else entirely.

 

Think about a motherboard for a BGA-book. Now think about the GPU chip. Make it socketable and I cannot really see why it would not be possible to make it compatible for example with a 3060, 3070 Ti and a 3080 Ti.

 

Power delivery would of course have to be capped according to the capabilities of the board but other than that why not?

 

And yes I can see where this would be a bit more complicated than doing this for a CPU but it would be doable if Nvidia and AMD would HAVE to do it.

[VEGGIM]

Ok another question. What constitutes as "thin and light" cuz thats really vague. 

Pretend that i'm an big OEM wanting to make a laptop. What justification would their be to make a DTR that would make money or generate profit.

Since thats computer companies priority #1. If it doesn't make money or if the amount of money gained doesnt gain enough profit to cover the overall development costs. Then it's seen as unworth or a failure.

 

Rn DTR's are mostly used for engineering market because they don't care about size or weight so they're used for scientific workloads. 

[jaybee83]

14 minutes ago, VEGGIM said:

Ok another question. What constitutes as "thin and light" cuz thats really vague. 

Pretend that i'm an big OEM wanting to make a laptop. What justification would their be to make a DTR that would make money or generate profit.

Since thats computer companies priority #1. If it doesn't make money or if the amount of money gained doesnt gain enough profit to cover the overall development costs. Then it's seen as unworth or a failure.

 

Rn DTR's are mostly used for engineering market because they don't care about size or weight so they're used for scientific workloads. 

yep, of course, youre right, thats the big issue here: the sheeple want thin n light crap and the companies follow the big trends / go wherever demand takes them. thats how they make money.

unfortunately, the group of people wanting big fat high performance DTRs becomes smaller and smaller each year...

[VEGGIM]

17 minutes ago, jaybee83 said:

yep, of course, youre right, thats the big issue here: the sheeple want thin n light crap and the companies follow the big trends / go wherever demand takes them. thats how they make money.

unfortunately, the group of people wanting big fat high performance DTRs becomes smaller and smaller each year...

Thing is, who is the one who convinces those that thin n light is better. Since comapnies who purchase DTR's replace the laptop when the warranty runs out. Thats how buisnesses do things. The thing is what would convince them to do dtr's thats not benchmarking points.

[jaybee83]

48 minutes ago, VEGGIM said:

Thing is, who is the one who convinces those that thin n light is better. Since comapnies who purchase DTR's replace the laptop when the warranty runs out. Thats how buisnesses do things. The thing is what would convince them to do dtr's thats not benchmarking points.

its always a question of how you spin it: u might as well build a whole ecosystem with repair shops and socketable hardware upgrades to support a platform for many years to come. that way you could argue that ur revenue per machine is much much higher than a single use disposable thin n light BGA turdbook. 

[Aaron44126]

31 minutes ago, jaybee83 said:

its always a question of how you spin it: u might as well build a whole ecosystem with repair shops and socketable hardware upgrades to support a platform for many years to come. that way you could argue that ur revenue per machine is much much higher than a single use disposable thin n light BGA turdbook. 

 

(Devil's advocate / laptop company perspective)

...How would revenue be higher if we make it easier for people to not replace their whole laptop every few years?

😕

[VEGGIM]

36 minutes ago, Aaron44126 said:

 

(Devil's advocate / laptop company perspective)

...How would revenue be higher if we make it easier for people to not replace their whole laptop every few years?

😕

You can't unless you price it absurdly high for profit margins. For desktops it' works cuz the community is mainly DIY ers and businesses. 

Laptops is different. 

DTR's mainly serve professional engineering crews. For professions like those, size, weight, and price doesn't really matter. Said companies that do buy DTRS have non engineering employees who have more than 1 machine per engineer and peripherals for each.

 

Those companies buy a laptop every 3-5 years that is true. But they are replaced on that schedule due to that's when warranties for these businesses normally run out and it lines jp with depreciation based asset write off. Buisness owned machines not paid by user will most likely get physical damage.

 

How many people who buy gaming laptops will actually tune and diy them? Compared to just seeing it works well OOB. It's most likely the latter and will continue to be that way cuz younger people are starting to get gaming laptops. And by young j mean teenagers.

 

[Aaron44126]

44 minutes ago, VEGGIM said:

DTR's mainly serve professional engineering crews.

 

Even when DTR's were more of a thing, it seemed like the market for "professional" high-end business systems (Precision/ZBook/Lenovo P&W series, maybe "rugged" systems in certain situations) and more gaming-focused DTR's (Alienware/ASUS ROG/MSI/Clevo/etc.) were pretty separate.  There are cases of overlap for sure, but I think it mostly goes in the direction of "ordinary consumers" buying "business" systems.  (I bought a Precision for personal use, and there are number of "prosumer"/non-business Precision laptop users active here.)  I've never heard of a company buying a bunch of Alienware or ASUS systems for a professional engineering job.  You might see systems like this used in small business situations where the IT department is not fully developed.  But larger businesses will want business-class warranty & support and that is not offered on all lines of business.

 

Internal modularity would matter less to larger businesses (where the big money is for these types of systems), if they're just going to refresh the things after 3-4 years anyway.  I've seen this myself.  We also use Precision systems at work (software engineering) and there have been a few occasions where IT is chomping at the bit to keep their three-year refresh cycle going and replace my team's systems, and I have to almost "beg" them to wait a few months so that we can get a new model and not a year-old one.  And they'd rather pay Dell to configure the systems appropriately out-of-the-box rather than shop around for SSDs and RAM modules to save a few bucks, both for purposes of simplifying their own jobs getting systems up and running, and also simplifying the complexity on what is covered under warranty and what is not.

 

It all boils down to the same thing.  The consumer DTR market as it was is gone and unlikely to return; the money is not there.  There is little reason for laptop makers to collaborate on new standards to replace things like MXM.  Seems obvious that users on a forum like this who like to tinker, tune, and upgrade would want a DTR revival, but if we are something like 0.2% of the market, then what's the point...

😕

 

(I hate being all negative about it but it's just how I see the situation.)

 

If there is any silver lining, it is that the need to upgrade your PC every few years has been going down over time, so you can stick with a system for longer even without upgrades.  5+ year old PCs that were high-end at purchase time are still quite capable at this point.  Even a laptop GeForce 1080 system (hit the market about six years ago) should be able to run current games at 1080p/60 and reasonably high settings.  (...Enter Microsoft, with their new artificial OS system requirement hikes.)

[1610ftw]

I am not sure that the issue with a DTR system is not simply that nobody makes any money off it. The issue probably is that companies like to make LOADS of money.

 

Now a DTR poses two issues on the financial side:

1. It probably sells enough to make a small profit, maybe even a relatively handsome one but certainly not huge sums.

2. It shows up the thinner and lighter BGA books that by comparison look weak in multiple aspects and sales will probably be affected negatively.

 

This can be an issue but then if only one company offers a DTR they can also get customers from other brands who will switch brands for a proper DTR.

 

 

 

[VEGGIM]

53 minutes ago, 1610ftw said:

I am not sure that the issue with a DTR system is not simply that nobody makes any money off it. The issue probably is that companies like to make LOADS of money.

 

Now a DTR poses two issues on the financial side:

1. It probably sells enough to make a small profit, maybe even a relatively handsome one but certainly not huge sums.

2. It shows up the thinner and lighter BGA books that by comparison look weak in multiple aspects and sales will probably be affected negatively.

 

This can be an issue but then if only one company offers a DTR they can also get customers from other brands who will switch brands for a proper DTR.

 

 

 

The 2nd part eeeh no. Cus battery is still a thing to some people. and DTR's are still weak in that part. And will continue to be that way because desktop cpus were never made for batteries. Especially now were getting laptops with like 5-7 hours of battery so thats something. Also the fact that its a desktop cpu alone means a peformance boost because things like power isnt a concern. But with the HX and amd Dragon range coming out, its not really needed due to 1. being direct die and 2 is nearly or is 1:1 with the desktop version counterpart.  Could you still design it to use desktop cpus? Sure, you can.

 

and theres a 3rd reason. Non DTR's are not made to replace desktops compared to actual DTR'S. Because DTR's are always the top of the line product so it will be expensive compared to the lower versions. If it really would steal sales then the x170 would have stolen sales from many other oem laptops but it didnt. Why, cus they dont aim for the same market as laptops as the g14, L5P, mech 15 g3.

 

Laptops and tech cant be sold like cars can. In cars you can make halo products that might be unreachable for many but gives the brand a high image which leads to more sales because they will be impressed by the halo model and want to buy other models buy said companies. Laptops and tech selling doesn't work like that. Since they aren't made to uplift a brand image, especially since laptops are judged model by model. Not brand by brand in cars where brand loyalty is more common.

[VEGGIM]

1 hour ago, 1610ftw said:

 

 

This can be an issue but then if only one company offers a DTR they can also get customers from other brands who will switch brands for a proper DTR.

 

Ok another issue. What is a "proper DTR" because many people have their own definition of what a DTR is. and the thing is. These thing aren't standardized  because many oems have different design philosipihies that conflict with eachother.

[1610ftw]

7 hours ago, VEGGIM said:

The 2nd part eeeh no. Cus battery is still a thing to some people. and DTR's are still weak in that part. And will continue to be that way because desktop cpus were never made for batteries. Especially now were getting laptops with like 5-7 hours of battery so thats something. Also the fact that its a desktop cpu alone means a peformance boost because things like power isnt a concern. But with the HX and amd Dragon range coming out, its not really needed due to 1. being direct die and 2 is nearly or is 1:1 with the desktop version counterpart.  Could you still design it to use desktop cpus? Sure, you can.

 

and theres a 3rd reason. Non DTR's are not made to replace desktops compared to actual DTR'S. Because DTR's are always the top of the line product so it will be expensive compared to the lower versions. If it really would steal sales then the x170 would have stolen sales from many other oem laptops but it didnt. Why, cus they dont aim for the same market as laptops as the g14, L5P, mech 15 g3.

 

Laptops and tech cant be sold like cars can. In cars you can make halo products that might be unreachable for many but gives the brand a high image which leads to more sales because they will be impressed by the halo model and want to buy other models buy said companies. Laptops and tech selling doesn't work like that. Since they aren't made to uplift a brand image, especially since laptops are judged model by model. Not brand by brand in cars where brand loyalty is more common.

 

By definition a big DTR will take away some sales from laptops of the same brand, no idea why you would dispute that.

As for the poor battery performance of DTRs it is a myth and only due to Clevos ineptitude and not by design. Battery life was a lot better on the all socketed MSI WT75 for example and @win32asmguywill be able to confirm that.

 

As for brands not being a thing in the laptop world I invite you to have a look at the forums of HP, Lenovo or MSI and certainly others where there are a lot of brand loyalists.

 

Anyway I have made my point. There is not really too much incentive to continue this as some of us here kicked around a number of good ideas imo but until AMD or Nvidia show some support we will continue to get BGA books with an occasional socketed CPU or GPU but nothing else.

 

 

 

[jaybee83]

12 hours ago, 1610ftw said:

I am not sure that the issue with a DTR system is not simply that nobody makes any money off it. The issue probably is that companies like to make LOADS of money.

 

Now a DTR poses two issues on the financial side:

1. It probably sells enough to make a small profit, maybe even a relatively handsome one but certainly not huge sums.

2. It shows up the thinner and lighter BGA books that by comparison look weak in multiple aspects and sales will probably be affected negatively.

 

This can be an issue but then if only one company offers a DTR they can also get customers from other brands who will switch brands for a proper DTR.

 

 

 

only to a point. most people just go by hardware "names", i.e. = hey look! this 1kg slim laptop with 12 hours battery life has the same 3080 gpu in it as the 5kg DTR with only 1 hour battery life! SAME PERFORMANCE! 🤪

[1610ftw]

1 hour ago, jaybee83 said:

only to a point. most people just go by hardware "names", i.e. = hey look! this 1kg slim laptop with 12 hours battery life has the same 3080 gpu in it as the 5kg DTR with only 1 hour battery life! SAME PERFORMANCE! 🤪

 

Some residual brain function obviously is a prerequisite for an informed decision 😄

[VEGGIM]

7 hours ago, 1610ftw said:

 

As for the poor battery performance of DTRs it is a myth and only due to Clevos ineptitude and not by design. Battery life was a lot better on the all socketed MSI WT75 for example and @win32asmguywill be able to confirm that.

 

 

Tbf this is coming from someone who owns a legion 7 with the 5900hx and 3080. I get like 7-9 hours on this and that's cuz I use this thing for school as well. 

 

For me I don't mind thickness but I have a concern when it's too thick and can't fit In a computer bag. Cuz I don't put laptops in hand luggages 

[1610ftw]

17 minutes ago, VEGGIM said:

Tbf this is coming from someone who owns a legion 7 with the 5900hx and 3080. I get like 7-9 hours on this and that's cuz I use this thing for school as well. 

 

For me I don't mind thickness but I have a concern when it's too thick and can't fit In a computer bag. Cuz I don't put laptops in hand luggages 

The Legion is perfect for your use from what it looks like and 7 to 9 hours is very nice.

If it was bigger and had even better cooling, more memory and more storage options it would probably run almost as long it just wouldn't fit your use case of lower volume for increased portability.

[VEGGIM]

2 hours ago, 1610ftw said:

The Legion is perfect for your use from what it looks like and 7 to 9 hours is very nice.

If it was bigger and had even better cooling, more memory and more storage options it would probably run almost as long it just wouldn't fit your use case of lower volume for increased portability.

Its like vapor chamber and phase change material. am not sure how much better you can get with those lmao. There is an official legion discord so i could ask if they are pallning to make a DTR or something.

[1610ftw]

20 minutes ago, VEGGIM said:

Its like vapor chamber and phase change material. am not sure how much better you can get with those lmao. There is an official legion discord so i could ask if they are planning to make a DTR or something.

Probably not that much room for improvement compared to other designs and with that kind of power uptake.

Yep, would be cool to ask. They seem to be into even numbers these days for screens like 14" and 16" so I would propose an 18 or 19" DTR 😄

 

[VEGGIM]

1 hour ago, 1610ftw said:

Probably not that much room for improvement compared to other designs and with that kind of power uptake.

Yep, would be cool to ask. They seem to be into even numbers these days for screens like 14" and 16" so I would propose an 18 or 19" DTR 😄

 

Are modern 18 or 19 inch screens even available. And by that i mean not a rarity or expensive. Don't expect anything socketed though cuz i doubt it.

[1610ftw]

2 hours ago, VEGGIM said:

Are modern 18 or 19 inch screens even available. And by that i mean not a rarity or expensive. Don't expect anything socketed though cuz i doubt it.

No, there is not a single screen bigger than 17.3" but then not too long ago there wasn't a single 16 or 17" 16:10 screen and look where we are now. There are even 3 different resolutions for the 17" screens with 1920 x 1200, 2560 x 1600 and 3840 x 2400. As far as socketing goes Lenovo even has socketed GPUs for its upcoming 16" workstation so that would not even be that much of a surprise.

[jaybee83]

49 minutes ago, 1610ftw said:

No, there is not a single screen bigger than 17.3" but then not too long ago there wasn't a single 16 or 17" 16:10 screen and look where we are now. There are even 3 different resolutions for the 17" screens with 1920 x 1200, 2560 x 1600 and 3840 x 2400. As far as socketing goes Lenovo even has socketed GPUs for its upcoming 16" workstation so that would not even be that much of a surprise.

there used to be 18.4 inch screen sizes available in "ye olden days" like in the Clevo P180HM: https://eurocom.com/ec/specs(223)

 

that was back in the 600M GPU and 2000 Intel CPU days....socketed mobile cpus! 🤠

[1610ftw]

3 minutes ago, jaybee83 said:

there used to be 18.4 inch screen sizes available in "ye olden days" like in the Clevo P180HM: https://eurocom.com/ec/specs(223)

 

that was back in the 600M GPU and 2000 Intel CPU days....socketed mobile cpus! 🤠

Yep, that was VERY long ago.

My favorite screen size is the one on this one:

By my calculations with todays slim bezels we could easily fit a screen of that size in a chassis the size of the Alienware 18 or the MSI GT83 so much more compact compared to that 16 lbs monster 😄

 

First and at the same time last laptop with an 18.4" 4k display was this one by the way. Really liked the look and the keyboard arrangement (no hobbit numpad, full size arrow keys) but unfortunately only a BGA book: