Etern4l

3 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

 

Yes, the lack of control over your own system is ... out of control.  Another reason that I am on Windows LTSC which doesn't ever get forced updates to a newer version/build, just a monthly security update package.  Windows LTSC works a lot like how older versions of Windows worked from a maintenance perspective (pre-Windows 10), so I'm OK there, but licenses are sort of a pain for ordinary users to acquire.  In any case, I've been a Windows user for ... a few decades ... and a reasonably happy one for much of that time (once I got off of 9x and onto the NT kernel anyway), and I just have to complain about the direction that they have been taking things in the past few years.

 

I'm very interested in switching to Linux as a daily driver at some point.  I have done a fair amount of thinking on it and I have a literal list of things that would have to be addressed in order to make the switch.  The main problem is, I use some professional software that isn't available on Linux, so basically I have to choose between three options, none of which I especially like:

• Try to run the software in Wine (...I've done some limited testing with this and it didn't go well).
• Run the software in a Windows VM which I basically leave running at all times.  (What's the point of switching then?  It's just going to make my whole setup that much more complicated.)
• Don't switch and just keep using Windows.

Other than that, the other issues that I have mostly require time to overcome.  One is that I would have to reimplement my custom laptop thermal solution on Linux.  (Everything that I need for this is available on Linux, it's just a matter of stringing the pieces together.)  The others just require time to understand how certain things work (full disk encryption + TPM unlock, remote access to a running desktop session, dealing with NVIDIA/Intel hybrid graphics, DPI scaling with Linux applications, DPI scaling with Wine applications, selecting a full system backup solution, .....and like 15 other things....), and then do some trial and error with the available solutions, and decide what I like.  It sounds like a kind of fun thing to tackle, actually, but I don't really have time to commit to it these days.

 

I've been thinking about making a thread about this over in the Linux subforum; my specific issues on switching to Linux are sort of out of scope for this thread.

 

 

Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with macOS as well and Apple likes to shuffle stuff around even more than Microsoft does (or at least that was the case until recently).  I do like Apple for a lot of reasons, but I don't think that I could switch to a Mac as my daily driver (though in some ways it would be easier than switching to Linux).

If he said Windows apps are something you would spend most of your time interacting with, then Indeed unless you manage to run them in Wine, the rationale looks weaker. But it's not completely pointless. If you run just some apps on a VM, that's an isolated setup: full image backups are trivialised, any exposure to Windows system or security issues are limited - you are just losing or struggling with a VM, not the main system.

Case in point: Windoze 11 auto-launched 22H2 update in background which killed my Windows installation just now, probably because I wasn't ware of this and restarted... If you're going to force background system upgrades on people, implement this robustly (somehow), morons. How difficult would it have been to display a dialog "Windows upgrade is in progress, are you sure you want to restart?".

2 hours ago, Papusan said:

Hi. Did you install the repair kit from Arctic for their AIO ? 

Of course.

2 hours ago, Papusan said:

Regarding temp degradation (pump out)... Have you tested with IC Diamond ?

I haven't, but I'm almost certain there was no pump out with the phase-change TIM.

2 hours ago, Papusan said:

A failed/failing pump would mean massive heat problems once you start taxing the Cpu.

Well, the problems are significant. 60W less power draw in CB23. It could be that the pump is just not running at full speed. We don't know because Arctic didn't think it would be useful to have RPM monitoring on the pump.

2 hours ago, Papusan said:

As a notice.... This update is optional.

Well, speaking of updates: looks like Redmont Reprobates have tried to punish me for abandoning their spyware product by deciding for me that 22H2 update is not optional and starting an unsolicited stealth background upgrade. I guess I may have restarted a few times in the middle of the update I wasn't aware of and now Windoze is unusable. Starts showing some artefacting and reboots automatically shortly after logon, even though there is unlikely to be an issue with the video card. If I boot in safe mode, the taskbar looks different, and things like network and search don't work. Network worked for a moment and windows update showed 22H2 update 65% complete or something.... <facepalm>

2 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

My impression is that something is not right with the AIO. You will certainly see improved results with a delid and liquid metal if the fit is good

Thanks for the advice bro. I mean the fit is good. Why would it sort of be good initially: always 310W - 330W on an AIO (whenever I saw 310W my reaction was to repaste), but then suddenly deteriorate? I guess let's see if AIO replacement helps first, and maybe I will order that delid kit too.

@Mr. Fox

@Papusan

Yep, something else is going on. I tried repasting twice, tightening and loosening the contact frame - absolutely no difference. 260W max, cores 5 and 7 at 100C. We can exclude thermal paste as being the culprit.

Another thing that happened is that now Windows started rebooting without warning straight after logon, after briefly showing some artefacts on the screen. Linux is fine. I managed to boot into safe mode and noticed Wingross 11 kicked off unsolicited 22H2 installation in background, could have something to do with that. 

Given that the degradation occurred quite suddenly, I assume the AIO developed some sort of an issue. I don't have any RPM reading for the pump ever since I disconnected the bundled fans, so hard to say what's going on (as bro Papu mentioned a while back: poor design from Arctic with putting the pump and fans on a single header). The VRM fan is working.

I'm not sure how to verify or reject this hypothesis other than by trying another AIO. 

Another possibility would be that of some internal issue between the die and the IHS, that a delid might fix. I guess that's far less likely though. Thoughts? 

BTW this PTM7950 is almost like an adhesive. The AIO pump came off with relative ease, however, what was left of the TIM took some rubbing and scrubbing to get off the IHS and coldplate. Wonder what it would be like after 2 months or 2 years. Still, can't fault the initial results. 

No forced updates on Linux BTW. Installation of 22 H2 Windows decided to kick off for me in an untimely manner should have been my decision.

1 hour ago, Aaron44126 said:

As an aside, I've been reading some of the complain-y articles by Felipe Contreras on the state of certain things on Linux, and this recent one on GNOME 3 strikes me as echoing some of my complaints about Windows 11.

With all due respect, I don't these comments and Linux in general are in any way comparable to the Win 11 situation. Those are just one or two viewpoints by deeply opinionated people of which there are thousands in the Linux community - consequently, there will always be an opportunity to identify and point out critical opinions regarding virtually any area of the system, and Gnome has always been divisive. This is kind of similar with Windows I guess, but this is where the similarities end. Linux users have far more choice in terms of customisation of the system (don't like Gnome, use one of the several other window managers available). The experience of Gnome (and others, KDE in particular) can be fairly deeply adapted to users' liking via Tweaks and Extensions, something Microsoft doesn't really provide beyond bare basics and the ability to turn off eye candy.

Moreover pretty much anyone can get directly involved in the development to some extent (including testing, feature requests etc.), which is obviously not possible in the Windows world to any meaningful degree apart from beta testing in which all users do involuntarily participate lol 

14 hours ago, ryan said:

 

close up it matters but yeah back 6 feet I don't think you can spot the difference

I can assure you the difference between 4k and 1080p on proper 4K content is very clear to me at 6 feet on a reasonable size screen  (50 inch plus). It may be a question of the actual content (here I am considering content that would clearly exhibit the extra resolution, i.e. the vast majority of cases), the person's eyesight, or other visual acuity related factors etc. 

35 minutes ago, Papusan said:

Z690/790 have the weak Intel - ILM for socket 1700. Hence the custom Cpu-frame can reduce the bending banana mess introduced by Intel. But not all boards bend equal. The slightly curved AIO cold-plate takes account on this. 

 

The cold/plate has to match the IHS flatness. And the results depends if both surfaces match each other. It’s trial and errors with this gen Intel socket. 

Yeah, I have the contact frame. One thing is clear, the LFII wasnt developed with 13th gen in mind, simply because it was designed much earlier, and the coldplate barely fits the IHS. Looking at those comments on OC, It's amazing what I managed to achieve with it lol

BTW apparently the coldplate on the LS720 is slightly convex, which is probably what you want. I am pretty sure the IHS is slightly concave, so that would match.

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/deepcool-ls720-aio-360-liquid-cpu-cooler/3.html

57 minutes ago, Papusan said:

Look at my post on OC.net https://www.overclock.net/threads/overclocking-raptor-lake-13900k-13700k-13600k-etc-results-bins-and-discussion.1799628/post-29054726

 

And fully flat/plane IHS isn't the best choice with AIO coldplate's if you are on Z690/790 boards with the bending mess. 

 

The pump on AIOs is right above the cold-plate and this is one of the reasons they are able to cool with weaker pumps. And there is not much fluid in an AIO. And the distance for the loop is very short.

 

 

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction bro. I have no idea why you had to do the mods you did. Did the bottom cover get in the way of anything? Nothing I noticed on the MEG ACE, however, I have been wondering if the standoffs aren't too tall...

What do you mean by Z690/Z790 bending mess?

Actually, according to this thread, the exact high pump RPM AIOs I identified are the ones people recommend (Deepcool LT/LS720 and the EK Nucleus):

https://www.overclock.net/threads/13900k-ks-cooling.1803906/

The problem is that it's unlikely any of those folks have had a chance to test the setup the way I would (think a 2 week CB23 run). 

Will keep digging around.

Edit:

One guy wrote:

"The LT720 360 keeps my 13900ks below 100c at up to 315 watts. Most aio can’t even come close to 315 watts."

Too bad he didn't specify the TIM.

My modified AFII setup did 330W then settled at 325W, at 25C ambient, but that's kind of apples to oranges comparison in terms of fans  I guess, if he just used 3 stock ones. Still, I would I be able to achieve that if I had a contact issue?

My problem is that then the paste gets pulverised and performance collapses after a random period of time under load. Guess I just need to try and see if I can lower contact temps with a different AIO + maybe LM, then some compromise on the power will be required. What a mess indeed.

Yeah, BlueStacks has been around for quote a while.

1 hour ago, Mr. Fox said:

Well, that's odd. Your link gives me this:

 

That explains why the link wasn't shown inline by the forum... Here is the underlying page:

https://www.kitguru.net/components/cooling/luke-hill/deepcool-ls720-360mm-aio-liquid-cooler-review/2/

41 minutes ago, Papusan said:

 

I don't think the pump or pump speed is the problem. Has to be the cold plate fits on the IHS. And you are looking on an AIO that won't bring you much... 

Agree the fit could be a problem, but not sure what to do about that. Actually another AIO could be a solution, especially given that the fitting mechanism on the AFII is not rated too highly. I'm not sure if it's worth lapping the coldplate.

Logically the pump speed (flow, to be more precise - which very few manufacturers quote) should play a role, right? If you have 50% more water flow, that should materially affect the heat exchange especially if the coolant temp is around ambient. Also, from what I can see the pump block on this and similar AIOs is literally 2-3x the size of the pump block on the AFII. There is also the matter of coldplate size - the one on AFII is quite small, probably further reducing the heat exchange.

There is a lot of variance in the reviews, as you can see from the link above. I have to say, I am a little suspicious when I see reviews where the Corsair H150i (nothing special specs-wise) takes all the top spots lol

Besides that DC LS720 there are also a couple other 3000RPM pump AIO options which seem to perform similarly:

* EKWB Nucleus I believe, the current model

* Thermaltake Toughliquid Ultra 360

I will have a think. A bit of unwelcome painful guesswork and hassle to be honest.

46 minutes ago, tps3443 said:

@Etern4l

 

pump speed is key, but you will hit a point where gains are no more. I run a chiller only with no radiators. So pump speed helps tremendously here, I still have not hit a wall even with (4) D5’s. The reason is because, the chillers have big tubing diameter inside and that flow pressure really drops off with a chiller. The more pressure, the better! But yes you want some good flow with radiator cooling too. (1) single fast pump should be sufficient for any single radiator setup.

Yeah, I suspect the low pump speed plays a role here, precisely because I use custom fans meaning that the water coming out of the rad is really cool, by AIO standards. I looked at Tom's reviews and they said, wow - this AIO (another DeepCool model with 2550rpm pump) is awesome because it can handle 315W with the 13900K. Well, my setup as can handle 320-330W with a 2000RPM pump (with fresh paste).

I was sizing up this AFII AIO for the 12900KS, not the 13900K, and didn't pay attention to the pump speed. Arctic managed to get away with a slow pump due to the oversized radiator. Ideally I would like something with a thick radiator and a fast pump lol. If no such product exists, then I guess it will be time to start putting together a custom loop setup.

Edit: yeah the AFII 360 doesn't cut it anymore these days. 9C worse than the DeepCool LS720 (at £120 it's tempting):
 

https://www.kitguru.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/temps-oc.png

1 hour ago, Mr. Fox said:

That is very kind and generous of you. Thank you. Let me know how much to send your way for the shipping cost. You can send it USPS Priority in a small flatrate box. I really appreciate it.

 

I have started an RMA with EKWB and linked the thread you provided on OC.net and provided these two images with the RMA request to EKWB. Hopefully, they will do the right thing and give me my money back. I really like how it is made, but I do like the poor results.

 

 

 

I left a comment on their YouTube video.

 

I think delidding would help a whole lot more than you are thinking it will. As @tps3443has pointed out, sanding down the lip on the underside of the IHS so that the IHS contact surface mates with the die instead of the PCB is crucial. If the IHS drags on the PCB instead of swiveling freely on the die, the results will not be as good. If you do that and use liquid metal on both sides of the IHS even your sustained load temps will improve measurably. The benefit is not limited to short periods of stress. The stock solder only works well enough with near stock clock settings and an undervolt. Any kind of overclock with increased voltage causes unacceptable thermals with the stock solder.

Thanks, appreciate your advice, although in my mind the challenge is still not improving CPU thermals per se, but solving the TIM degradation (which is caused by insufficient IHS cooling and/or flawed contact, obviously). I really don't see how rising IHS temperature would help with that.

For now I'm reviewing this AFII 360 AIO. For starters, it has a 2000 RPM pump... whereas some other offerings on the market come with a ~3000rpm pump. As @tps3443 was saying, pump speed is key. For example, DeepCool LS720 comes with a 3100RPM pump, which could provide material improvement potentially. Need to read up more.

1 hour ago, Mr. Fox said:

First place to start is the delid. You're going to run hotter than you would after a delid no matter what you do. You'll never have excellent temperatures with stock solder unless you get freaky-lucky and get a CPU like one of those that @tps3443stumbled into that can run 6.0GHz with something like 1.250V. Once you have the IHS off you can easily lap it, or get an aftermarket copper or nickel IHS that is already flat.

Many thanks. Solid advice from the benching perspective, however, I'm not sure deliding first would be helpful in my case. Here is my reasoning as to why not:

The nature of the problem is that, for a combination of reasons, the TIMs lose properties or pump out after a period of few weeks under heavy load. Likely contributing factors include:

* Intel, maliciously (to prevent the gaming CPU from competing with Xeons) or idiotically, used insufficiently large IHS for the 300W CPU - nothing we can do about that

* Potential IHS concavity or other material surface imperfections - sanding could provide an improvement, at a loss of warranty

* Ditto for the AIO coldplate - sanding this is pretty much risk-free, although some coldplates are slightly convex on purpose and sanding could make things worse

* The AIO itself could be lacking in terms of coldplate dimensions or pump performance (there is no pump/flow monitoring on this) - could try another AIO

* There is a more durable TIM to try still - LM is the only option left, although opinions on durability seem to vary

* The overall system can't handle the given power on a sustained basis - give up and limit the power 

That's it as far as I can see, short of rebuilding the system with a custom loop. 

Now, what I understand deliding would achieve, is it would improve heat transfer between the die and the IHS, further increasing the IHS temperature and compounding the problem. Great option for short-duration loads, benching and gaming, and for people with extreme cooling, but not necessarily in my case, if I understand correctly. Yes, it would potentially allow me to save the original IHS, though. 

1 hour ago, Mr. Fox said:

Horrible, like all GPUs made before NVIDIA discovered a oroprietary way to implement ray tracing as a means of extortiion.

Slide show... literally. https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/90334138

  

Please post a link to that.

White computer parts almost always strike me that way, even when it is crisp and clean looking. White is just not the right color to use from my perspective. It always sucks, even when it is not used in a disgusting way. The rainbow colors being added to the white simply make the impression or being a joke for children worse and exacerbate the ugliness. If you add anime images into the mix it becomes an object of contempt and worthy of ridicule.

There has to be something abnormal that is being overlooked. What are you using for a cooler? Maybe that is the problem. Are you using the Intel ILM or a CPU frame? I am wondering if the CPU shape and the shape of the base of your cooler are going opposite directions and need to be lapped?

Yeah, that could be part of the problem. 

1. I'm using Arctic LFII 360 AIO with 6 Noctua IPPC 3000rpm fans. A sensor placed on the radiator consistently shows exactly 2C over ambient, so I guess not too bad. 

That said, the cold plate on that AIO is just long enough to cover the CPU, one would hope for some margin. 

2. I'm using the Thermaltake contact frame, very gently tightened about 90 deg over the point of resistance. 

No problems with the same setup (actually with just silent 3x Arctic and 3x Noctua 2000 RPM fans) on the 12900KS. The difference was the power draw: about 220-230W vs 270-280W (over quite extended periods). 

Also, with the PTM7950, things were working marvelously for about 2 weeks, then BOOM: two cores at 100C and power draw down to 240W, in a matter of a day or two. 

Thanks for the lapping tip, will start reading on that. I also have a couple of pics of the IHS and coldplate, after previous similar paste failures (Phobya Nanogrease lasted the longest, about a month, this is second-best at over 2 weeks). 

I mean, it's not the end of the road yet, a few more things to try:

* Lapping, now that you mentioned it

* Different AIO

* LM on the IHS

* Delid

* New case and custom WC loop

* Throw in the towel and power limit - will still handsomely outperform the 12900KS.

Well the noname PTM7950 failed as well. Angry at Intel for producing a practically uncoolable CPU at stock clocks, unless used occasionally for gaming, or cracked open for direct die cooling. At least now it's clearer what Sapphire Rapids are for. 

7 hours ago, Eban said:

 

To be totally truthful I do not understand bears.

I'm Australian and whilst there are plenty of critters who want to kill you we have nothing like a bear.

 

Pigs, dogs, big Kangaroos, spiders, scorpions, jellyfish, snakes, lizards even sharks. 

But a bear to me is just an alien creature. I did watch a while ago Grizzly Man from 2005.

 

I am sorry to offend those that are offended BUT....Him and Steve Irwin got what they deserved.

Don't play with dangerous animals kids. Spiderman was a fluke shot.

 

I'm not clear on why bears would be allowed anywhere outside fenced parks / zoos compounds. 

The noname PTM7950 from eBay failed after 2 weeks or so. I received another noname sheet from China, I might try that, otherwise I'm a bit out of ideas. I think I will just have to impose a power limit on the CPU. Many thanks to Intel for producing an uncoolable chip for occasional gaming use with an insuffcient IHS and based on crap 10nm process.

Actually, it's not clear, or even unlikely, that PTM7950 was the issue. Quite possibly the AIO failed, as repaste didn't help.

Even Bill Maher has had enough lol

I learned a new word: 'presentism" ...

10 hours ago, 1610ftw said:

Very thorough review showing a bunch of disappointing scores for the 4070 compared to the 3070 Ti and also what is the reason for it. The subs are pretty good and it's definitely worth a watch.

 

 

 

"4070 is an IQ test card" lol

7 hours ago, Tenoroon said:

What programs do you all recommend for memory testing? I've never really messed with RAM at all, but @Custom90gtsold me his sticks and I'd like to make sure they have no errors at the speeds I'm using them at now.

If the goal is 100% stability, Memtest86 in parallel mode over several hours may not catch everything. I have found Google GSAT effective but again needs to be run over very long periods. 

42 minutes ago, Papusan said:

Nvidia continue try steal more sales from their AIB partners. Now re-opened their online store in Sweden. It places both high end graphics cards at a significantly lower price level than several of the partner cards available at retailers and introduces another competitor to the Nordic market. Yep, Evga saw this would come. 

 

Nvidia turns the corner - sells Founders Edition at target price in Sweden
https://www.sweclockers.com/nyhet/35872-nvidia-kovander-saljer-founders-edition-till-riktpris-i-sverige

 

 

AiBs needn't be too concerned as the main effect of Nvidia's online stores is customer disappointment and irritation with the consistently poor availability. A lot of it is just links to partner websites selling laptops. 

Meanwhile there are AIB 4090 cards at MSRP to boot elsewhere. Who knew the pool of buyers willing to drop $2k on a graphics card is limited!

4 minutes ago, tps3443 said:

 

(1) I would NOT sell on eBay. Forums, or Facebook market place as always.
 

(2) The new machine from Microcenter does not have sales tax.

(3) That MSI GT77 was the only one on eBay at the time for sale used. It sold yesterday. There were not really any other options. I did not search through them though. 
 

Also, I was planning to use @johnksss Method. Free upgrades when you buy the microcenter in store warranty. You can return the laptop and get a gift card of the items full value with 1-2 years, minus the warranty cost. 

 

Fair enough. There are many realities, but generally there is a typical, say Western reality, and a very different Microcenter customer's reality lol

10 minutes ago, tps3443 said:

It would definitely be a little cheaper with a desktop to upgrade I think. So you’re right there. 
 

It looks like this MSI GT77 with a 12th gen Intel and RTX3080Ti fetched $2,550 used. 
 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/334758335478?hash=item4df126d3f6:g:WHgAAOSwV0Jj9Rcx&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAkGV6mWAoGCx26ntryzSD0KyUBhS4FhvoIULgiiKYr6G6iLXb6k2uSyXBvg7vJFueIPtGkC3fN9cJA3kFLLrQ%2BZXbFLjmvvlBz5yNNnqO1KDsEXIUbl3K7c57EsgI22it31TrKPzHiNviQN%2BukQLPp2kj0KnooS6RJ8e%2FDsIiXgxRbciOXdTSIM3uq6GuxKIJKg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR-LU8e7TYQ

And to purchase a MSI GT77 with 13th gen and RTX4090 similarly would be $4,699.99.

 

That is a $2,149 dollar out of pocket cost. 
 

EXPENSIVE UPGRADE RIGHT THERE!!!  But that’s an elite machine too. 

 

It would probably make more sense and be a cheaper upgrade with cheaper machines. Like a $2,800-$3,000 dollar laptop would be worth maybe $1,500-$1,800 after 2 years.

 

Did you pick an average sold price for that spec or an optimistic outlier price (which may or may not have resulted in a successful transaction)? 

Did you deduct the 20% ebay fee?

Did you include sales tax in the purchase price for the new laptop?

Assuming the answers to Qs 2 and 3 alone are no, and applying an optimistic sales tax of 5%, the actual laptop upgrade cost is $2,893

53 minutes ago, tps3443 said:

BGA cannot be upgraded. But, it can be upgraded if you sell the laptop after a few years and just buy another one lol. That’s what you did with your 3090KP and 12900KS (Both items cost similarly to a whole high end gaming laptop)
 

4090 and 13900K cannot be upgraded either. I’d have to replace them after a few years. Just like a gaming laptop.

 

If I buy a 4090 and a waterblock that’s gonna cost me $1,969 USD. 
 

That’s kinda how I’ve been looking at it anyways. I guess if I bought a 4090 and a 13900KS right now that is easily $2,300+ for (2) parts. In which I could nearly buy an entire laptop. 
 

Regardless of BGA or desktop, we’d be wasting money on technology that is disposable either way and becomes worthless after a while. It would be the same old rinse and repeat with a laptop as it would be with a desktop. 

A desktop is partially upgradable and trivially repairable. My case is 15 years old, PSU lasted 14 years, fans lasted 15 years (actually they are still OK, just upgraded to 3K RPM), an AIO should be good for 5 years+. If I need a faster GPU, I can replace just this component without touching anything else. I can reuse that component in another PC, or sell it - selling a graphics card is presumably easier and inherently less risky than selling a high-end laptop.

A $2300 13900K+4090 combo will provide 1.5x+ CPU processing power, and the GPU will be about 2x faster than the fastest BGA laptop, while featuring 50% more VRAM.

Laptops are a s... poor deal. The only reason to get them is for convenience and mobility. Luckily in my case, both of these requirements just involve working unplugged, therefore a top spec laptop is not needed, so when the time comes I won't be paying the BGA mob off too excessively. I will be just getting the baseline config that does the job. No heavy lifting required. Fortunately, one thing my AW laptops have going for them is that they are built quite well and last ages ;)

It's the same size, however, it has two extra spare tires in place of the 2 removed passenger seats at the back :)

Nobody asked for that, but it's cheaper for the manufacturer, while the price of the "upgraded" car went up. 

(referring to the slashed memory bus/bandwidth, in case that wasn't obvious)