electrosoft

Nvidia being Nvidia along with having the dominant hardware overall. The 4090 is just in a class of its own. Ditto, I'm glad I picked up my 4090 back in January at stock pricing. I'm also glad my first CM cable was a dud due to the loose sense pin to avoid that whole fiasco. 🤣 I'll definitely be putting those incoming 8000 sticks through the wringer on both Z790 and X670e! With numerous BIOS updates since my initial testing I'll definitely retest 6000->6600 1:2 before diving into 1:3+ on AM5 with the new sticks. With so many bad 14900k samples out there I'm not even sure we will see a 14900KS. I still feel this smells of the 10900k where they had extracted everything they could from the architecture and there simply was no room for a KS variant. Over on OCN, you see some just returning their 14900k's because their 13900k or 13900ks are just as good and/or the 14900k they picked up is just a horrific sample that can't even hit stock properly on an AIO. You then even have average 14900k's that are worse than good binned 13900ks. Like I said before, lots of cross over with some 14900k's just being low binned duds that have problems even running at stock. I would sit back and wait and snag a good binned (or at least average) chip for the 14900k or prepare to play the lottery. If I had a good 13900k/ks I wouldn't even bother at all unless a super bin falls in your lap. I watched your video yesterday @Talon. That was some fantastic work bro and I agree with your write up. Hopefully Intel isn't pulling an Nvidia and is just starting from the top and it will eventually work on all 12th->14th gen CPUs.

I have zero problems not only initiating refunds/charge backs but also putting people and companies on blast when they don't do the right thing. When it drags on, I set a hard "I will initiate a charge back / refund if I don't receive my item(s) by X date," and when I don't I just go ahead and back up my threat. With that being said, we all run into hiccups as a buyer and seller. It happens. It's how you handle it that makes all the difference in the world. Hopefully he comes through.

Monster "In the wild" 14900k over on OCN from Amazon:

I would not be surprised if they use the traditional holiday buying season coupled with "external reasons" to continue to raise prices on the 4090. They have gone up everywhere on average and plenty of models continue to remain out of stock. As for the lesser models, in an ideal world to compete effectively, Nvidia would let the normal 4070, 4070ti and 4080 dry up over the holidays and replace them with the Super variants in January at the same or close enough price to increase their value to consumers especially with the 4080 which is the poorest seller out of the new line up and rightfully so. Swap in a Super at the same price with 20gb of memory would immediately create much better value especially against the 7900xtx which is routinely marked down. Knowing Nvidia though, they will simply offer both and the Super variants will be more...... "4080 Super at $1399....you're welcome! Happy $%*%)(* Holidays %(&%($_)_)$!!" "Greed.....is good"

Laptops are an odd duck when it comes with Vendor control and Nvidia control. Like I saw on my G18, not running Asus software resulted in a massive CPU and a lesser (but still annoying) GPU penalty. I would be curious to see the price paid for neutering some of the collection/control mechanisms from Nvidia (and potentially Lenovo) software. I know I will never buy another Asus laptop as long as AC cancerware has to be run to have it run properly. I would extend that denial to every other laptop maker too on the market. Imagine buying a motherboard that couldn't run full tilt unless you installed their bloatware and just didn't run naturally at full gait out of the box regardless of BIOS settings? I'll be curious to see the final comparison between your 13900k and 13900ks in its final delidded state.

Just like DDR4 and Samsung B-die was king but then DDR5 everyone wanted Hynix.....

If I was going with a custom loop (most likely 280+240) it would be in something like an NR200 or Dan C4. For a single rad custom loop, it would be an A4. Hyte would run into the same problems and it really, for all its bulk, just isn't optimized for a good custom loop. There's a reason there aren't many custom loop build outs for it 🙂 Take a look at this one. I wouldn't have even bothered. I would have switched to a NR200 MAX, N2, C4 or even an A4 for a custom loop. In hindsight, for an air cooled build I would go with a Fractal, Sliger or S400. A sandwich build for an air cooled SFF seems perfect. But it's a fun learning process. The Hyte taught me many things I don't want one of them being, for an AIO model, the AIO must mount in a traditional manner up top and I also don't like recessed access to the I/O ports on the MB. The Cougar Dust 2 seems to check all the boxes for a semi portable SFF build but we will see. The one I picked up I got at half the cost of new and it comes with Noctua fans instead of stock POS.

Here is why the SP115 has been sitting in a box the last few months LOL: Remember my idea was to build out a banger sff system which is why I scooped up that 13900KS to have a killer 13900 level portable system if possible. I picked up a Hyte Revolt 3 w/ PSU as my "welcome to SFF building" experience. I jumped through all these hoops to get it working in the Hyte Revolt 3, but the Hyte mounts the rad directly over the motherboard and the pressure of the tubing would eventually cause the mount to destabilize and temps would eventually creep up from expansion and contraction. I should have known when I first tried to use an extra on my shelf EVGA CLC 280 which has tubing right out of the top = even more downward pressure when closed. In a normal test case to make sure the hardware was sound, temps were absolutely fine for days on end (IE, high 70s for a 41.5-42k CB23 run with this SP115 NO delid on a 280mm AIO w/ KPx lol....insane). As soon as I mounted it and closed it temps immediately spiked to 95+. Rinse/Repeat = same results. I switched to a pump side tubing mount AIO I had in the closet (ID Cooling) mid level to low level 280 AIO. Temps were a touch higher (~82 max) because it isn't as good as the EVGA CLC 280 (which isn't even the best for a 280) but it would always initially run fine but over the course of hours or days, temps would eventually spike back up to 95+. I'd take it out, remount, same cycle. Finally, I remounted and left the side open causing no pressure on the pump/mb and it ran fine for days on end. I took everything out and tested it on the table, ran fine no problems. So the issue was the Hyte design along with the downward pressure on the MSI Z790i. As a test, I put my daughter's 12400 in there and re-installed it into the Hyte, closed it up and yep a day or two later, temps were spiking into the high 80s / low 90s. I dismantled everything and put it all back into their boxes and then I've been preoccupied with 4 laptops I have (or had) here: NH55 (which I had been meaning to get back to for some time to tame a desktop 12900k in it but the SFF phase one took over), Second Asus G18 (testing, benchmarking, trying several sets of memory, then returned because of AC BS), my daughter's P377SM-A which she finally wanted to downsize from for college so I switched her to an Acer Swift 16 OLED AMD laptop I had on the shelf (which is amazing) so I was tinkering with her system and some spare parts (4940MX, couple of MXM GPUs) for benchmarking. Now I have a lull in the action, so I'm turning my attention back to the whole SFF thing as I have a Cougar Dust 2 sitting here ready and waiting which takes a traditional approach to AIO mounting up top. I also will probably give a Dan A4 a whirl too. In the interim, I did some research on 240 AIOs and picked up an EK 240mm which seems to work the best in the Cougar and A4 (which also does a traditional on top AIO) in regards to tube management along with having some of the best thermals out there and a low profile block. It has been sitting sealed in its box for over a month now. I will rebuild everything in my test case first with the 8000 sticks from @Raiderman along with the EK 240mm and re-qualify everything then build out in the Cougar Dust 2 (aka SFF adventures Vol 2). I like the Hyte Revolt 3, but if or when I get back around to building out in it, it will definitely be an air cooled system for the CPU so something like a 7800X3D would rock in there. That leaves a lot of PSU room open with the included 700w PSU for something like a 7900xtx for a killer, portable AMD advantage system.

Thanks Bro for the deal! Phase 1 is going to be seeing where they top out in classic G2 AMD mode to see if the timings can get any tighter than the A-die 6400 sticks I have in there now at 6000/6200. Then G3 for 8000 AMD Then MSI Z790i Edge + 13900ks testing since I know this combo can hit 8200 tested with my buddy's Geil sticks a few months back no problem. Of course this combo has been sitting in the MSI box for the last month or so since the Hyte Revolt 3 was a bust and I haven't had the time to spec, prep and build out in the Cougar Dust 2 which is still sitting in the box unopened.

Before a major update enabling what is effectively "Gear 3" for AMD, AMD memory clocking was limited to ~6000-6600 and a proper ratio is tied to FCLK (1:3) and MEMCLK (1:2). This is basically Gear 2 for AMD and was new territory for Intel with 11th gen offering 1st gen Gear 2 albeit on memory that couldn't handle high enough frequencies to make it make sense (aka DDR4) so you stuck with G1 like their previous CPUs. These are carryovers from AM4 with a bit of enhancements for AMD. Now we can effectively open up DDR5 to 1:4 and 1:3 and hit the same memory frequencies as Intel. Let me pre-empt this by stating outside of posting big fancy bandwidth benchmarks, I really haven't seen anything major gains wise in what is effectively G3 (4? 🤔) (since by nature it runs G2 aka 1:2 MCLK:MEM natively. AMD doesn't run 1:1) for AMD with the ability to scale memory up into Intel range. I posited this many months ago when the new memory mode was announced but untested and that it may take next gen AMD 8000 series CPUs or later to really take advantage of it like Intel does with 12th-14th gen and even then Intel leaves a nice chunk of real world performance on the table as you scale past 7200 but still yields tangible gains especially compared to AMD in real world (IE not synthetics) testing. Real world, both scale pretty badly but this will improve with time. AMD just does it worse atm. AMD right now is in Intel 11th gen G2 mode in regards to their G3 and taking advantage of high speed DDR5. It is there and it works but can't really utilize it properly yet outside of throwing up bandwidth numbers showing the memory is indeed running at and processing the expected number of MT/s. 6000 is the "sweet spot" in regards to the natural ratio of AM5 (MCLK:MEM 2:1, FCLK:MEM 3:1) and all IMCs able to hit it 99.99% of the time depending on memory configuration. Almost all AM5 chips can't keep a proper ratio past ~6400 (2133 fclk) on mem and many top out at 6200 (2066 fclk). You can run it async if you want out of the 1:3 ratio (mclk 1:2). Running memory below 6000 is gimping your AM5 platform and at the very minimum this is what you shoot for and tighten your timing as much as possible. My fclk tops out at 2066 but I found testing 6000 up to 6200 sync and 6600 async that 6000 super tight sync provides the best performance that is actually utilized. Still, I'm glad it's there because eventually we will see meaningful performance gains if not this generation then potentially next as it is here to stay....same as Intel where hopefully Arrow Lake can better utilize all that bandwidth DDR5 has to offer than Alder or Raptor. I still need to pick up some competent 8000+ sticks to play with between both my AMD platform and MSI Z790i Edge 2-dimmer + 13900KS. I just haven't done the ground work or asked @Mr. Fox and @tps3443 what are their current flavor of sticks. 🙂

I know breaking down a loop is a PITA, but you're going to need to swap in another to test and/or just send it off to MSI but I would definitely order an identical board from Amazon for their return policy to test out and see if all those little problems go away. Luckily, you and I own the exact same board so you can see it is capable of running just fine even having played around with 3-4 different memory kits, 3 different GPUs and 2 CPUs. I believe it is pronounced: ******MEGA GAMER!!!!****** Only like this can you get +50% on core and +2500 on memory.... ZOMG!!!1111 🤣

I have not had any of the problems you're encountering with my X670e carbon. 😞 I picked it up open box from Amazon Warehouse and it has been rock solid from day one. I would pick up another identical board and see if the problems go away because it might not even be the motherboard (but most likely). If the new test board works fine, RMA the original. If the problem(s) persist, move onto other components (CPU, mem). Have you tried other memory in there? Set everything back to stock (especially memory)?

GN especially gives no quarter with companies. I had no idea EVGA was boxed into a corner even moreso with AMD than Nvidia in regards to being control freaks. In AMD's defense, their 5000 series chips were not nearly as robust as Intel's offerings in regards to overclocking but that may give insight into why EVGA didn't want to bring an AMD GPU to market either. Invest all this time and money only to have to butt heads trying to be different for razor thin margins? No thank you. Go smaller, control your own destiny with no control freaks and just make peripherals and some build components. I've been a fan of MSI ever since their series of 1722 laptops way back in the day. I remember they had a member of MSI on the NBR forums where you could get hard to find or not on the normal market parts for their laptops for all of us that were modding and OC'ing them. That's when I added them to my list of "will buy" vendors. With EVGA exiting the MB and GPU market, for me personally it is MSI and Asus for MB and MSI for Nvidia GPUs. For AMD GPUs = Asrock and Sapphire. MBs = MSI and I'm curious about Asrock MBs. I had washed my hands of them after their Z300 series Taichi's were garbage but I'm always open to redemption since their 6000 and 7000 series GPUs are so well built and have led the market in robust designs across the last couple of generations. Very nice, especially that CPU score!

Best bet if you pick up an EVGA Z790 is to get an EVGA 4090 to assure optimal compatibility...... /s

I'm sticking with AMD for my main rig right now. If this time next year 8000 series drops and Arrow Lake isn't bringing the high heat, I'll just slot in an 8800X3D or 8950X3D and keep on truckin' When I say I've had zero problems with this build, that is exactly what I mean. Such a good experience after the 5800x debacle. I'm glad I gave AMD another chance along with MSI as I was running a Tomahawk x570 on that rig. I've been running this AMD rig for 6 months now. I keep fighting the urge to jettison the 4090, pick up a 7900xtx and go full on AMD (and pocket the difference). I keep an Asrock Taichi 7900xtx in my Newegg saved list to check daily. 🤣 tl;dr AMD all the way** **As always, I reserve the right to tuck tail and jump ship with head held low at any time because that's just how I roll. 🤣

Jay is giving up and abandoning his 7950X3D system and going back to Intel with a 14900k build (time stamped at justification).

lol, well I opted for their "My Best Buy Plus" $49.95/yr program for the free expedited shipping AND generous 60 day return policy. I had picked up one of these back in March but returned it pretty quickly due to so many issues. That was BIOS revision G306 (G301 being launch BIOS). The one I picked up in late August was Rev G317 and subsequent BIOS updates to G318 and G319 fixed a lot of the problems but the Armory Crate BS just did me in. Plus with 14th gen and 4000 series mobile refreshes on the horizon and hopefully other 7950HX3D enabled laptops coming out, it made sense to return it and sit back and wait. I haven't been really gaming much lately. I actually pulled out my MSI Suprim X Liquid 4090 to run some tests and benchmarks on some other cards for baseline comparative data I have and haven't even re-installed it yet. Problem is we've become a full data mining society and that data is worth billions and is a constantly evolving dynamic construct that produces a perpetual revenue stream. As a result, every company now wants to find ways to force or at least strongly suggest you install their software which in turn will gladly collect your personal data as much as they can and then resell it at worst or use it for their own gains at the best. I mentioned it before, but when Asus purposely went out of their way to remove persistent effects on their motherboards where they worked fine before with a BIOS update that was just more writing on the wall. When companies tie software as tightly as possible to peripherals that shouldn't need it or at least the peripherals should store the settings, the writing is on the wall. When M$ has mutated their OSes into store front, data collection, bloated behemoths, the writing is on the wall. No longer satisfied with selling a quality product and support software that enhances the product, companies now look for ways to get their software on your system so they can collect your data and if possible, get you sign up for subscription services. "X as a service" is greedspeak for, "You don't own this product. You license it and if you want upgrades or continue to use it, you will pay fees for it and....oh yeah, we're going to continue to mine your data.....sometimes even if you click 'no'" Just disgusting behavior. I did, but it won't enable the CPU turbo/power mode and it was stuck at 115w still. Fan controls worked. G18 also supports OpenRGB. I tried setting and uninstalling both AC after enabling turbo mode but shut down and restart and the system goes right back into default mode of 115w for the CPU. If you want full functionality and performance, you HAVE to have Armory Crate installed. Hopefully with newer updates it will gain access to higher power states. I know back in March, OpenRGB did not support the G18 but now it does for RGB control. Either way, being forced to have to install their bloated malware was the final dealbreaker. I finally gave up the ghost on your 12900k after delid, the below adjustments and UV couldn't tame it and admitted defeat and put my cool running, low pull SP91 in there and your 12900k in the wife's desktop. Choice silicon along with a -0.125 / -0.65 UV, removing the retention bracket and doing a pseudo direct mount and some strategically placed auxiliary copper heatsinks, the CPU no longer throttles in CB23 or testing WoW for 30-60 min which would always run the temps up to 100c. Now they don't break 86c and if I set fans to max don't break 80c. I didn't even delid it. On the other hand, the system overall pulls 200w now just running CB23 and caps out running Timespy at 237w with the 230w PSU in HWInfo since there is no thermal wall to throttle it. It's ironic and funny, but when I first picked up that 12900k back in Dec 2021 from Newegg while binning several, it stood out immediately from the rest for running so stupidly cool with such low pull to boot. I even commented on the old NBR forums about I hope Clevo, MSI or Alienware drops a 12th gen DTR because it is screaming for a laptop with its characteristics..... .......and ~22months later here we are. 🤣 Hopefully I'll get a crack down the road with this SP115 13900k in the NH55 since it can run full throttle on a 280mm AIO, hit ~42k and stay in the high 70s/ low 80s with no delid just KPx. It may need that aftermarket heatsink. That is what I liked about Prema on the P870 series the best and it looks like the X370 harkens back to those "everything in the BIOS" days. No need to run Clevo Control for anything. I don't run it on the NH55 either. Just TS 9.6. @jaybee83 while a retention frame won't work, you can remove the entire retention lever mechanism and just use the HS direct pressure to mount giving you some of the thermal advantages of a retention bracket (IE, no bending from the original mounting system). I did this and it helps while taming a full bore 12900k in there.

Hollow gesture. China will unofficially get the GPUs one way or the other. I just returned my second Asus G18 (13980HX + 4080) a few days ago to Best Buy. I'll wait for the next wave of laptops to see if I'm going to snag one. My NH55 is holding it down for me right now along with being tinkering central. I couldn't stomach having to use Armory Crate to enable full package power for the CPU and GPU. Without running Armory Crate and setting to Turbo, CPU capped at 115w and GPU around 160w. Bios undervolting still capped to -0.080 and none of the normal Asus BIOS goodies.

It turned out pretty much like I thought it would. If you have a 13900k or ks, hard pass unless you're into binning chips. 🙂 You are going to encounter some cross over with substandard 14900k's and really good 13900ks both frequency and memory IMCs. Definitely cheaper but that doesn't help if the IMC sucks or if it fails to OC as far as a 13900ks in the 5.9ghz+ club. Still, on average, I expect it to be better than 13900ks. ------13900k------ ------13900ks------ -------14900k------ It will be fun to see the data rolling in over the next several months especially with some choice gem silicon lottery specimens float to the top. Just like the 10900k was pushing 14nm+++++ to the edge and we didn't see a 10900ks, I think there's a very good chance we won't see a 14900ks but you never know. The real winners are those who are building out new systems or upgrading 11th gen or below. They get to step right into 14th gen.

14900k vs 13900ks is really going to come down to silicon quality yet again and the disappointing MC on that 14900k shows there will be nothing special there too. It is also at the mercy of the silicon lottery. If I had a 13900k or 13900ks, I wouldn't upgrade unless....UNLESS....you like binning out CPUs and fishing for killer bins both clocks and memory. I always like the first 2-3 months of new chips as the data comes rushing in and we get clarity on how they stack up bin wise. 🙂

New BIOS for MSI X670e Carbon I installed it and looking around it seems MSI lifted the +25mhz PBO cap and tightened up manual OC options a bit. My previous memory OC tuned works fine. I'll play around with it and the potential + PBO boost cap vs manual OC over the next week or so. @Raiderman

Hmmm, I just checked Best Buy on a whim and out of the 9 models they carry they are out of stock on 6 of them so there might be some validity to a shortage. They are completely sold out / no stock of all the $1600 models. The few Gigabyte models they have are all up in price to $1700 and $1750 now. Out of Newegg's 18 models shipped and sold by Newegg, 8 are out of stock and the lone $1599.99 model they carry (PNY) is out of stock. Interesting....

De8auer crapping all over 14th gen.... Please note when he shows the chips side by side you can see thermal residue on both so you know he is speaking from a position of having already tested it and I suspect tomorrow's results are going to show big 'ole nothing burger but on the positive side Intel keeps the pricing the same and gives you a nice bin up from 13900k -> 14900k at no increased cost so I see no problems with this refresh. If you're a new buyer who was going to get a 13900k you now just get a 14900k for the same price and carry on with a very modest performance boost.

AI has become the new catchphrase. A few years ago, we would simply call this, "smart boost technologies" or similar but let's see what AI can bring to the table in regards to extracting more exacting performance from CPUs based upon each CPUs characteristics. I have yet to encounter boosting technologies that I was not able to transcend and eek out more performance above and beyond what they can do. I have no problems with companies implementing auto enabled technologies that allow The Average User (TAU) from getting as much performance as possible from their purchased product automatically. That seems to be very pro consumer ....even if it is because Intel is locked in a massive battle finally with AMD so they need their chips to perform as well as possible and AMD was to market first with it extracting the bulk of the performance each chip could provide automatically.

Nice step through all of Asus's refreshed Z790 motherboards so you can really see the differences between all their motherrboard offerings. She goes over each board from low to high in detail if you're looking at Asus for your last hurrah build outs: