*Official Benchmark Thread* - Post it here or it didn't happen :D

[electrosoft]

44 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

"Look at the TCO graph here. Total annhilation."

 

My preference would be to do my own calculations rather than rely on AMD marketing to do the thinking for me. Have we seen the actual vendor pricing for this versus Sapphire Rapids yet? What about in-depth benchmark results? I'm not saying AMD's assertions are wrong, we just don't really know (presumably). And again, the value proposition may well vary depending on the use case. 

 

"I think AMD Ryzen 7000 is a superior product for many users except to those who tweak"

 

I am not sure this has much to do with tweaking, frankly unless you have a ton of time and won big in the silicon lottery, the benefits are not as great as they used do be (except for the unrelated memory overclocking) - look at the minor gains at the end of the day: 43000 vs 41000 in Cinebench 23 which likely wouldn't be stable under extended heavy load anyway.

 

As explained earlier, Intel has significant advantages on scientific computing side. Sure, if you are running something like a web server, AMD looks like a strong option to consider.

 

I just I remembered one more reason why I didn't go with AMD: the lack of Thunderbolt. That's it, if you need it, then AMD is not really an option.

 

 

Tweaking is a very small subset of users. We're just so enmeshed in it because just about everyone in this thread gets under the hood to fine tune their systems. Once you're out there amongst joe average user, all they want to do is turn it on and go and when something doesn't work right have someone like us fix it for them.

 

Asus and Asrock make X670 motherboards with TB4 functionality.

 

 

[electrosoft]

5 hours ago, Ashtrix said:

 

As for AMD's performance, the Ryzen 5000 IMC and whole DRAM shenanigans with USB issue and IOD nonsense blew a hole hard with the instability & bonus if you touch the tweaking even worse, run at 3200MHz or 3600MHz + PBO2 stock perfect out of box super performance.

 

The thing is with modern processors esp since couple of years, the CPUs are clocked to max out of box, Intel and AMD both. PBO2, TVB what not. So there's a little incentive to spend on Intel processors every damn year. Which is why AMD is still outselling all CPUs on Amazon with AM4 only. The saturation is too high and AMD had to cut AM5 prices. 

 

 

 

 

 

Even pure stock there were issues. My brother's 5600x Gigabyte B550 system (which he still uses to this day) on the newest BIOS still has USB issues and it is pure stock with 3200mhz QVL memory. I installed a USB card  a while back for him to help with the issues.

 

My 5800x system even rock stock still had drop outs with an MSI X570 Tomahawk. They did increase in frequency when overclocking and pushing the IF but even at stock there were still problems. Unlike my brother, I wasn't willing to continue to deal with them and jettisoned the entire subsystem and returned to Intel.

 

New (and expensive) hardware in a fatigued, saturated market quickly let AMD know high prices weren't going to fly with AM5. Nvidia is learning that lesson ever so slowly with the 4080. I'm greatly looking forward to the post holiday system to see demand drop even further and Nvidia, Intel and AMD have to adjust their pricing for the first time in a long time overall.

 

 

[Etern4l]

4 hours ago, electrosoft said:

 

Asus and Asrock make X670 motherboards with TB4 functionality.

 

 

 

I looked into those boards "with Thunderbolt functionality" for the 5950x and it turned out to be a poor marketing gimmick. It was actually USB4 not TB4, eGPUs wouldn't work for instance. Yet, they were unashamedly marketed as supporting Thunderbolt... Asrock is Asrock I guess. Perhaps something changed this gen, but I doubt it. Even if AMD suddenly managed to come up with a full TB implementation, it would have to be a pure and unadulterated 100% compatible implementation otherwise God, or at least Linus himself, help those trying to get this to work on Linux this decade.

 

This is one of the problems that has always plagued AMD. Yes, looks good on paper, but then there are these seemingly minor incompatibilities which break things in an annoying way. Probably looking better now than in the Opteron era I am referring to, but still def a gamble to some extent, depending on the application. Gaming should be fine. AMD seems to be investing heavily in the area (possibly to the detriment of other, clearly neglected, domains), as evidenced by their aggressive acquisition of exceptional gaming hardware talent such Frank Azor ;)  ( @Papusan, you have the floor sir, my popcorn is ready lol )

 

It used to be that you had to pay a premium for the peace of mind and freedom from compatibility issues, but thanks to "the invisible hand of the market" (concretely: the hand/wallet of gamers buying AMD) now we pay about the same or less, relatively speaking ;)

 

Edit: Quick question about CPU VDDQ on the 13900K:  BIOS default is 1.164V, apparently raising this to 1.2V could help with memory OC. Any downsides? 

 

Same question regarding SA voltage: also around 1.164V in BIOS. Thanks a lot. 

[cylix]

13 hours ago, Raiderman said:

Does your board have a csm option in the bios? It doesnt really matter, as I can install Windows 7 in pure UEFI, if I want. Just curious though.

I have to take a look. Im still learning this new bioses,  😅

[Ashtrix]

6 hours ago, Etern4l said:

 

"Look at the TCO graph here. Total annhilation."

 

My preference would be to do my own calculations rather than rely on AMD marketing to do the thinking for me. Have we seen the actual vendor pricing for this versus Sapphire Rapids yet? What about in-depth benchmark results? I'm not saying AMD's assertions are wrong, we just don't really know (presumably). And again, the value proposition may well vary depending on the use case. 

 

"I think AMD Ryzen 7000 is a superior product for many users except to those who tweak"

 

I am not sure this has much to do with tweaking, frankly unless you have a ton of time and won big in the silicon lottery, the benefits are not as great as they used do be (except for the unrelated memory overclocking) - look at the minor gains at the end of the day: 43000 vs 41000 in Cinebench 23 which likely wouldn't be stable under extended heavy load anyway.

 

As explained earlier, Intel has significant advantages on scientific computing side. Sure, if you are running something like a web server, AMD looks like a strong option to consider.

 

I just I remembered one more reason why I didn't go with AMD: the lack of Thunderbolt. That's it, if you need it, then AMD is not really an option.

 

 

Those are for Intel existing XEON Platinum 8000 series processors vs EPYC 9000. Sapphire Rapids based XEON did not launch it got delayed a lot 2 years I think behind the schedule.

 

As for Genoa comparison we have already got that.

 

 

 

 

Intel has to fight this with 80 Threads less. Yea that's what it is, XEON SPR is maxed out at 56C112T which has to be launched soon in 2023 Q2, EPYC Genoa is at 96C192T and then there's Genoa-X the X3D variant which will also be launched I guess that thing L3 may even let us install a game.

 

Then ARM Neoverse V1 and N2 are also coming which have extremely high core count. So for that AMD has Bergamo, Zen 4c it has 128Cores I do not know if it has Hyperthreading because ARM parts do not and they rely on core density only so these probably won't have HT/SMT. Intel planned the counter to these by 2024 with their E cores only server XEON.

 

Quick side note about HEDT death - I do not forget what AMD pulled on the HEDT consumers, they absolutely killed the HEDT well some of the blame should also go to Intel after their X299 they killed it and did not care and pumped out BS like XEON W anyone remember ASUS ROG Dominus Extreme ? yeah pepperridge farm remembers, running on a chiller lol.

 

So AMD had zero competition. Still made X299 outdated by the Threadripper 2000 which was a most wanted update to TR 1000 series because the 1st version was horrid, Zen+ based TR 2000 was a much welcomed one, but they killed that X399 (sTR4 socket, yeah pathetic X299 ripoff naming from AMD PR team). Launched sTRX4 socket upgrade for TR 3000 which were based on Zen 2 cores. That thing screamed performance it nuked Intel XEON W. But guess what ? normies and people made PC into a gaming only machine and do not care for PCIe slots or I/O I already repeated this over and over but I will again everyone wants "Muh Gaming" so it died due to high cost (no competition) and not much market since Mainstream Ryzen got a lot of Cores/Threads AMD saw not worth in reducing the EPYC bins to TR. Thus HEDT faded out. Then AMD pulled another EOL the sTRX4 is dead after just a single CPU support replaced by sWRX8 socket TR 5000 PRO series, ultimate processors, massive I/O performance as they were on Zen 3 based design but unobtainum as the prices got jacked up to stratosphere. So thus HEDT died.

[tps3443]

7 hours ago, Etern4l said:

 

I looked into those boards "with Thunderbolt functionality" for the 5950x and it turned out to be a poor marketing gimmick. It was actually USB4 not TB4, eGPUs wouldn't work for instance. Yet, they were unashamedly marketed as supporting Thunderbolt... Asrock is Asrock I guess. Perhaps something changed this gen, but I doubt it. Even if AMD suddenly managed to come up with a full TB implementation, it would have to be a pure and unadulterated 100% compatible implementation otherwise God, or at least Linus himself, help those trying to get this to work on Linux this decade.

 

This is one of the problems that has always plagued AMD. Yes, looks good on paper, but then there are these seemingly minor incompatibilities which break things in an annoying way. Probably looking better now than in the Opteron era I am referring to, but still def a gamble to some extent, depending on the application. Gaming should be fine. AMD seems to be investing heavily in the area (possibly to the detriment of other, clearly neglected, domains), as evidenced by their aggressive acquisition of exceptional gaming hardware talent such Frank Azor 😉 ( @Papusan, you have the floor sir, my popcorn is ready lol )

 

It used to be that you had to pay a premium for the peace of mind and freedom from compatibility issues, but thanks to "the invisible hand of the market" (concretely: the hand/wallet of gamers buying AMD) now we pay about the same or less, relatively speaking 😉

 

Edit: Quick question about CPU VDDQ on the 13900K:  BIOS default is 1.164V, apparently raising this to 1.2V could help with memory OC. Any downsides? 

 

Same question regarding SA voltage: also around 1.164V in BIOS. Thanks a lot. 

You can run CPU VDDQ up to 1.5V for daily. And upwards of 1.6V for benching is perfectly fine. This is essentially just a signal voltage, so it won’t harm anything.

 

CPU VDD2 is the CPU IMC And it can be ran at 1.400V daily, or about 1.450V for benching. I personally do not exceed 1.400V on this one. 
 

Hope this helps. 

[Etern4l]

1 hour ago, tps3443 said:

You can run CPU VDDQ up to 1.5V for daily. And upwards of 1.6V for benching is perfectly fine. This is essentially just a signal voltage, so it won’t harm anything.

 

CPU VDD2 is the CPU IMC And it can be ran at 1.400V daily, or about 1.450V for benching. I personally do not exceed 1.400V on this one. 
 

Hope this helps. 

 

Thanks, appreciate the guidelines. Why does the board try to keep it so low though? Or is it very dynamic when on auto, i.e. it's showing as 1.16V in BIOS but actually goes up significantly under load?

 

 

  

3 hours ago, Ashtrix said:

 

 

Those are for Intel existing XEON Platinum 8000 series processors vs EPYC 9000. Sapphire Rapids based XEON did not launch it got delayed a lot 2 years I think behind the schedule.

 

As for Genoa comparison we have already got that.

 

 

 

 

Intel has to fight this with 80 Threads less. Yea that's what it is, XEON SPR is maxed out at 56C112T which has to be launched soon in 2023 Q2, EPYC Genoa is at 96C192T and then there's Genoa-X the X3D variant which will also be launched I guess that thing L3 may even let us install a game.

 

Then ARM Neoverse V1 and N2 are also coming which have extremely high core count. So for that AMD has Bergamo, Zen 4c it has 128Cores I do not know if it has Hyperthreading because ARM parts do not and they rely on core density only so these probably won't have HT/SMT. Intel planned the counter to these by 2024 with their E cores only server XEON.

 

Quick side note about HEDT death - I do not forget what AMD pulled on the HEDT consumers, they absolutely killed the HEDT well some of the blame should also go to Intel after their X299 they killed it and did not care and pumped out BS like XEON W anyone remember ASUS ROG Dominus Extreme ? yeah pepperridge farm remembers, running on a chiller lol.

 

So AMD had zero competition. Still made X299 outdated by the Threadripper 2000 which was a most wanted update to TR 1000 series because the 1st version was horrid, Zen+ based TR 2000 was a much welcomed one, but they killed that X399 (sTR4 socket, yeah pathetic X299 ripoff naming from AMD PR team). Launched sTRX4 socket upgrade for TR 3000 which were based on Zen 2 cores. That thing screamed performance it nuked Intel XEON W. But guess what ? normies and people made PC into a gaming only machine and do not care for PCIe slots or I/O I already repeated this over and over but I will again everyone wants "Muh Gaming" so it died due to high cost (no competition) and not much market since Mainstream Ryzen got a lot of Cores/Threads AMD saw not worth in reducing the EPYC bins to TR. Thus HEDT faded out. Then AMD pulled another EOL the sTRX4 is dead after just a single CPU support replaced by sWRX8 socket TR 5000 PRO series, ultimate processors, massive I/O performance as they were on Zen 3 based design but unobtainum as the prices got jacked up to stratosphere. So thus HEDT died.

 

Core count is just one part of the overall performance equation.  We can keep the discussion more focused by considering options within, say < $2k per CPU range. Not much there apart from the latest consumer blockbusters, right?

[cylix]

@Raiderman

Yep CSM option is there.

 

[Raiderman]

5 minutes ago, cylix said:

@Raiderman

Yep CSM option is there.

 

That is cool as s***! Thats MSI basically still supporting Windows 7 (unofficially) Thanks for checking!

[cylix]

1 minute ago, Raiderman said:

That is cool as s***! Thats MSI basically still supporting Windows 7 (unofficially) Thanks for checking!

 Your welcome. Yes, im really happy with th MSI board, no problems, everything is running stable, EXPO profile aswell. After the sour taste that the first board ASUS Strix B650 left.... I tried 3 DDR5 kits on the ASUS board and i could not get it stable with expo profile, with the last bios still problems.

[tps3443]

Z690 Dark for sale on the OC forums for $350! That’s tempting, but I’m actually good. I’ve already got my 13900K and DDR5 dialed in very well on my Unify-X. 

[Mr. Fox]

1 hour ago, Raiderman said:

That is cool as s***! Thats MSI basically still supporting Windows 7 (unofficially) Thanks for checking!

I haven't seen one yet that lacks it. It would be very unusual for a desktop motherboard intended for gamers and enthusiasts that isn't a pile of crap (i.e. Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc.) to be missing CSM. CSM is an absolute necessity for a variety of reasons, including OSes that need it and diagnostic/repair utilities that require it. Any garbage desktops and laptops that do not have CSM are severely limited and crippled.  I rejected the opportunity to purchase the X170 that I used for development purposes for zTecpc because Clevo lacked the common sense to include it. According to @Premathere was no way he could add CSM support, so rather than being an admirable alternative to the turdbook cess pool, it instantly became a worthless object of contempt to me. The aftermarket desktop mobo manufacturers do not lack the basic common sense that their loser laptop and "big brand" OEMs do.

[Raiderman]

41 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

I haven't seen one yet that lacks it. It would be very unusual for a desktop motherboard intended for gamers and enthusiasts that isn't a pile of crap (i.e. Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc.) to be missing CSM. CSM is an absolute necessity for a variety of reasons, including OSes that need it and diagnostic/repair utilities that require it. Any garbage desktops and laptops that do not have CSM are severely limited and crippled.  I rejected the opportunity to purchase the X170 that I used for development purposes for zTecpc because Clevo lacked the common sense to include it. According to @Premathere was no way he could add CSM support, so rather than being an admirable alternative to the turdbook cess pool, it instantly became a worthless object of contempt to me. The aftermarket desktop mobo manufacturers do not lack the basic common sense that their loser laptop and "big brand" OEMs do.

Ive been away from the desktop scene for a bit. I figured that everything was going UEFI or nothing, just as most notebooks have. I have been able to install Windows 7 on my HP probook in pure Uefi mode, but windows 7 call for a legacy video driver at first boot makes it difficult. Ive tried Fastboot, UEFI Seven, etc. I am glad to see csm is still supported with aftermarket hardware.

[Ashtrix]

1 hour ago, Raiderman said:

Ive been away from the desktop scene for a bit. I figured that everything was going UEFI or nothing, just as most notebooks have. I have been able to install Windows 7 on my HP probook in pure Uefi mode, but windows 7 call for a legacy video driver at first boot makes it difficult. Ive tried Fastboot, UEFI Seven, etc. I am glad to see csm is still supported with aftermarket hardware.

 

@Mr. Fox is right. ALL boards have CSM option. There's no IF/But. Even though Intel wanted to phase it out totally since a long time. Even the modern 40 series cards got some Black screen problems officially Nvidia offers a firmware update tool, or use CSM to not experience those issues, that only means how trash UEFI garbage is and has been.

 

Noting more things - however TB4 Maple Ridge Controller doesn't work on CSM at all. You cannot use it. Period. forget using that with Windows 7, the thing will be disabled automatically. So say goodbye to TB4 and up with CSM option enabled, that's how MSI ClickBIOS 5 works. I'm sure ASUS is also same. Also even Canonkong knows that TB4 will not support Windows 7. I hope USB4.0 doesn't copy that BS since USB4 and TB4 have same bandwidth basically and even, USB wants to move to USB C instead of USB A, that's a problem for the future.

 

  

4 hours ago, Etern4l said:

 

Core count is just one part of the overall performance equation.  We can keep the discussion more focused by considering options within, say < $2k per CPU range. Not much there apart from the latest consumer blockbusters, right?

 

Yeah,. Tomshardware link which I misplaced for the first opening phrase (now corrected), has all the metrics, I added Servers because that's where the real innovation happens and trickles down to Client side. Intel however has been opposite, Their Server business is the bread and butter which they swayed, and thus caused the rise of AMD and ARM. And their focus on Server is not successful since a long time but due to their "Chipzilla" status they have been going ok, Sapphire Rapids is 14C tile x 4 design btw.

 

Intel is going to reduce the cores to 6P and more E next 14th gen mainstream. I do not think AMD is going to reduce their core count esp their CCDs are maxed at 8C right now, instead they may increase them. Intel cannot put more P cores because their 10nm++ cannot do it esp Ring reached max and started flaking out with 10th gen (14nm++) overspeed Cache which is why RKL and ADL reduced Cache speed but on RPL they improved it still Core arch is on it's limits. Zen is a new design.

[Etern4l]

46 minutes ago, Ashtrix said:

 

@Mr. Fox is right. ALL boards have CSM option. There's no IF/But. Even though Intel wanted to phase it out totally since a long time. Even the modern 40 series cards got some Black screen problems officially Nvidia offers a firmware update tool, or use CSM to not experience those issues, that only means how trash UEFI garbage is and has been.

 

Noting more things - however TB4 Maple Ridge Controller doesn't work on CSM at all. You cannot use it. Period. forget using that with Windows 7, the thing will be disabled automatically. So say goodbye to TB4 and up with CSM option enabled, that's how MSI ClickBIOS 5 works. I'm sure ASUS is also same. Also even Canonkong knows that TB4 will not support Windows 7. I hope USB4.0 doesn't copy that BS since USB4 and TB4 have same bandwidth basically and even, USB wants to move to USB C instead of USB A, that's a problem for the future.

 

  

 

Yeah,. Tomshardware link which I misplaced for the first opening phrase (now corrected), has all the metrics, I added Servers because that's where the real innovation happens and trickles down to Client side. Intel however has been opposite, Their Server business is the bread and butter which they swayed, and thus caused the rise of AMD and ARM. And their focus on Server is not successful since a long time but due to their "Chipzilla" status they have been going ok, Sapphire Rapids is 14C tile x 4 design btw.

 

Intel is going to reduce the cores to 6P and more E next 14th gen mainstream. I do not think AMD is going to reduce their core count esp their CCDs are maxed at 8C right now, instead they may increase them. Intel cannot put more P cores because their 10nm++ cannot do it esp Ring reached max and started flaking out with 10th gen (14nm++) overspeed Cache which is why RKL and ADL reduced Cache speed but on RPL they improved it still Core arch is on it's limits. Zen is a new design.

 

Can't really see Intel reducing the overall core count. Why would they do that? They might swap P-Cores for quite a few more E-Cores though, especially if they make them much faster. At that point it might be a good idea to rebrand them to something like N-Cores (probably not Hard-Cores though) to stop putting some people off the platform lol. I guess it's all pure speculation at this point? I've seen some rumours claiming this will be a 7nm process, which of course would be a huge leap forward for them.

[jaybee83]

On 11/27/2022 at 2:17 AM, Clamibot said:

 

To add onto this, the problem with the platform longevity argument on the AMD side is that it's not really a benefit to most people, myself included. I usually only upgrade my CPU once every 6-7 years (with some exceptions, but very rare), and I'd imagine the average consumer can go 8, 9, maybe even 10 years without a CPU upgrade.

 

After more than 5 years, you'll need a new motherboard anyway since the socket that was used by both Intel and AMD will have changed by then. In order to fully take advantage of the platform longevity, you have to be the type of user who upgrades their CPU every year.

 

I know we have quite a lot of people like that on this forum, we're enthusiasts lol. I like the idea of platform longevity, but I'm just saying it's not relevant for most people. Also, we as enthusiasts would usually try to go for the motherboard with the most up to date chipset anyway so we can get the best features and overclocking abilities.

 

dangerous game ure playing there with that argument. its the classic "i and others i know dont need this, so might as well just get rid of it!". same can be said for:

 

- socketable cpus. most people never upgrade their cpu, even on desktop.

- socketable wifi. most people never upgrade that either.

- hows about dat RAM? do most people upgrade that in their machines? doubtful.

 

and so on, and so forth.

 

what AMD provides with their platform longevity is CHOICE. u dont want to upgrade to the latest compatible cpu on that socket after 6-7 years? fine, get a completely new system. but u still have the CHOICE to do so, i.e. ure tight on budget and cant bother to build a completely new machine, bam new cpu swap with bios update and bob's your uncle. 

 

would u prefer a complete platform change for every single cpu gen? including soldered down components for everything? welcome to laptop land! this is where PC enthusiasts come to die 💀 

 

On 11/27/2022 at 2:51 AM, Mr. Fox said:

It has been a selling point for the underdog, but you're correct. It is kind of a gimmick. As AMD grows toward achieving parity with Intel, I expect that to become a thing of the past. They can't compete on performance without competing on the financial side. It takes money, and that model is a money-loser for AMD and for motherboard manufacturers. Without support from motherboard manufacturers (as we have all seen, they treat AMD less favorably) they will have difficulty gaining parity on performance or financial strength.

 

respectfully disagree on that point, its not a gimmick but rather a tool for AMD to win market share from Intel. AM4 CPUs and especially the 5800X3D outselling all other cpus combined is a pretty strong indicator for that. of course there are MORE than enough peeps that just prefer Intel tuning, just way easier to overclock, bigger numbers in terms of clocks, stable boosting without fluctuations, more direct control, etc. but point being that both strategies seem to attract a looot of users, so something must be done right on both sides.

 

and I KNOW! most of us dont look for "value" of this kind with our hardware choices and we sneer at "good enough" hardware, since we usually want only the best of the best. but catering towards us is not how AMD and Intel make money, were just there for the Halo effect. it is what it is!

 

On 11/27/2022 at 4:14 AM, Ashtrix said:

Modern AMD is not underdog anymore. Intel is getting rammed by AMD on Datacenter and Client both. ARM and AMD both are chewing them away

 

 

And overall x86 share was 10% in 2018 for AMD, and 2022 30%, this can happen only because the company is offering a ton of value + performance and it's growing as we speak.

 

Intel CEO also had a statement recently that he said "AMD in rearview mirror" with ADL launch got shattered as he had to backtrack and nuked Optane, the one technology which Intel totally pushed to limits. Optane was TOP NOTCH. Extreme performance, Extraordinary endurance but ultimately couldn't achieve what it was made for and the beancounters axed it from orbit. Shame now we get trash QLC junk. They will axe even more businesses. 

 

 

The 96C Genoa EPYC is a literal piledriver (pun intended) through Intel Xeon SPR which is MIA right now. Also looking at AVX512 on Zen 4, Intel's AVX Clock offset is also outdated by a huge margin, there's no AVX offset or Thermal meltdown like Intel parts.

 

Look at the TCO graph here. Total annhilation. They are also ready with Bergamo that will destroy ARM parts in Core density, Intel has no answer to AMD nor ARM. Which is why Intel CEO is saying they will lose more marketshare.

 

 

I do not like Intel for what they have been doing, 2 chipsets for 2 CPUs on same Socket per 2 year and then hamfisting and purposeful sabotage of LGA1200 with BS negative regression on Core Count, MT performance, Efficiency, IMC on all things Rocket Lake. No they do not get a pass. LGA1700 is also half cooked, purchase Z690 Maximus Extreme and need to buy $6 part to get the CPU and PCB bend-issue fixed and get it proper torque specced so that it will last well I do intend to mention that because everything is a torque spec when it comes to mechanics imo. Not acceptable when the product costs over $800 and they did not bother to even try to fix for 700 series either. 

 

As for AMD's performance, the Ryzen 5000 IMC and whole DRAM shenanigans with USB issue and IOD nonsense blew a hole hard with the instability & bonus if you touch the tweaking even worse, run at 3200MHz or 3600MHz + PBO2 stock perfect out of box super performance.

 

The thing is with modern processors esp since couple of years, the CPUs are clocked to max out of box, Intel and AMD both. PBO2, TVB what not. So there's a little incentive to spend on Intel processors every damn year. Which is why AMD is still outselling all CPUs on Amazon with AM4 only. The saturation is too high and AMD had to cut AM5 prices. 

 

 

Newegg has Intel more but Amazon volume is definitely far far greater than any e-commerce front. Still look at the AM4 and there's no sign of the dead LGA1200, btw Intel still selling 10900K, 11900K usually they do not, but at BestBuy I see them. Milking 14nm+++ to death I guess lol.

 

 

I think AMD Ryzen 7000 is a superior product for many users except to those who tweak, I like to tweak and control and maintain a stable solid clock and not rely on boosting which is why I bought 10th CML only and not AMD. I would buy dead end only because it's mature and cheaper. But to many it is not the case, because AM4 paints the story clearly how AMD's x86 share is just increasing on all fronts. Many like to get a long supported platform. Also since it's a desktop that's what makes sense invest in one thing and run it for 6 years upgrade your rig not to just dump it and buy another one for those few % points in games or workflow, this is why even Consoles outsell PC because 8-10 years of life. (Which is why PC optimization is gutter trash. God of War 2018 ran on x86 Jaguar junk that gets destroyed by Core 2 Quad Q6600, but on PC it demands a super powerful x86 CPU likes of 10C20T+ why ? Publishers do not care much on PC as Console is mass market high volume, high margins)

 

Also with modern chips - 12th and 13th gen push the Thermal limits to max, with i9 you need an AIO or it won't cut. The heat density is massive. And Intel clocked them to limits out of box look at 13th gen binning literally all are top end silicon 5.8GHz boost 10nm++ at low voltages barely any junk exist, Intel added a bunch of E cores to reach AMD parity in MT and blow a ton of power on top. But in gaming  just look at the CPU graphs and tell me how much 12th vs 13th improve at best same for ST performance growth it's literally single digit % growth and the Socket is now dead, the LGA1700 while AM5 LGA1718 gets Zen 5 in 2024 and 5X3D refresh in 2025 which will destroy any 13th gen CPU without a shadow of doubt, that is a win for consumer no matter how you see.

 

Ultimately that makes the AMD chip more valuable product as the overtime Consumer choice is existing unlike damn chipset every year, and finally to round off they fixed the IOD crapping out and even  better significantly lower voltage than Ryzen 5000, they ran at 1.4v stock X3D ran at 1.3v the modern Ryzen 7000 runs at mere 1.1-1.2v at 5.8GHz boost with all 16C32T core at 5.5GHz temp target 95C 24.7 plus the IF is not linked to MemoryClock and Uclock anymore. It's like Intel Ring independent of the IMC+Memory clock. Meaning no more I/O nonsense relationship. Plus own memory profile standard like XMP, EXPO is there. Also finally their boards are also super high quality now, unlike the X470 era. X670 are just extremely overbuilt like all the high end Z690/790 with tons of VRM components.

 

Oh AMD will release a chipset for sure with Zen 5 as the current X670 is limited by PCIe4.0x4 link speed even though the CPU is capable of 5.0 maybe the cost of redrivers and PCIe5.0 adoption is "Absolute Zero" no SSDs, no GPUs nothing exist, even Enterprise barely started it's just wasted so they will upgrade it to PCIe5.0 in 2024 but it's like X470 vs X570 and not like LGA1200 vs LGA1700.

 

On 11/27/2022 at 7:24 PM, cylix said:

@Raiderman

Yep CSM option is there.

 

 

dude, this whole post is a friggin piledriver (pun also intended) driving your points home, great work as usual on the analysis and summary!

 

On 11/27/2022 at 11:18 PM, Etern4l said:

 

Can't really see Intel reducing the overall core count. Why would they do that? They might swap P-Cores for quite a few more E-Cores though, especially if they make them much faster. I guess it's all pure speculation at this point? I've seen some rumours claiming this will be a 7nm process, which of course would be a huge leap forward for them.

 

sadly, thats exactly what ive been hearing so far, as well. 14th gen is going 6P + 16E, its not gonna be pretty vs. the expected 24C / 48T Zen 5 flagship from AMD 😅

[Etern4l]

5 minutes ago, jaybee83 said:

sadly, thats exactly what ive been hearing so far, as well. 14th gen is going 6P + 16E, its not gonna be pretty vs. the expected 24C / 48T Zen 5 flagship from AMD 😅

 

I hope that'll prove to be FUD spread by avid AMD supporters ;) OK, but let's entertain that possibility for a second. I repeat the question: why on Earth would they do that, especially if they manage to transition to a 7nm process. Makes no sense whatsoever. 

[jaybee83]

17 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

I hope that'll prove to be FUD spread by avid AMD supporters 😉 OK, but let's entertain that possibility for a second. I repeat the question: why on Earth would they do that, especially if they manage to transition to a 7nm process. Makes no sense whatsoever. 

 

dont forget, theyvre alread done exactly that, going from 10 core 10900K to an 8C 11900K... 

 

lulz, AMD supporters, cmon man 😄 im not a fanboy for any company, i just go with the products that make the most sense to me 😛 

[Etern4l]

20 minutes ago, jaybee83 said:

 

dont forget, theyvre alread done exactly that, going from 10 core 10900K to an 8C 11900K... 

 

OK, so with 11th gen the failed idea was to trade off some cores for much better single-core performance, keeping multicore equal, with the intent to please gamers. I hope they won't make the same mistake again lol

[Mr. Fox]

4 hours ago, Etern4l said:

 

OK, so with 11th gen the failed idea was to trade off some cores for much better single-core performance, keeping multicore equal, with the intent to please gamers. I hope they won't make the same mistake again lol

They received a lot of hate and crap for the stupidity, and 11th Gen was a failure because of it. Nobody wanted it. Chances they will do that again might be pretty slim. Time will tell if they are dumb enough to shoot themselves in the foot financially a second time.

 

Nothing ever surprises me though. Intel, AMD, NVIDIA, Micro$lop and crApple are run from the top down by fricken idiots. So, I will not have a surprised look on my face the next time that any of them prove my point about their abject idiocy. It is not a question of if, but when, with the retarded tech giants 

[aldarxt]

8 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

I haven't seen one yet that lacks it. It would be very unusual for a desktop motherboard intended for gamers and enthusiasts that isn't a pile of crap (i.e. Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc.) to be missing CSM. CSM is an absolute necessity for a variety of reasons, including OSes that need it and diagnostic/repair utilities that require it. Any garbage desktops and laptops that do not have CSM are severely limited and crippled.  I rejected the opportunity to purchase the X170 that I used for development purposes for zTecpc because Clevo lacked the common sense to include it. According to @Premathere was no way he could add CSM support, so rather than being an admirable alternative to the turdbook cess pool, it instantly became a worthless object of contempt to me. The aftermarket desktop mobo manufacturers do not lack the basic common sense that their loser laptop and "big brand" OEMs do.

@Mr.Fox You need to run for President!

[tps3443]

Crazy how HOT DDR5 gets! I ran my DDR5@7200XMP CL34 super high tREFI@262,000 tFAW@16 only 1.400V

 

This was just a optimized XMP profile.
 

I ran full 32GB coverage with 32 iterations of HCI Memtest (NO FANS lol)

 

It finally gave out with a BSOD at 59C memory temps! Too hot to hold your hand on. 

[Papusan]

19 hours ago, Etern4l said:

Edit: Quick question about CPU VDDQ on the 13900K:  BIOS default is 1.164V, apparently raising this to 1.2V could help with memory OC. Any downsides? 

 

Same question regarding SA voltage: also around 1.164V in BIOS. Thanks a lot. 

Set aside 1/2 hour for the Youtube video from Builzoid. He talk about the different DDR5 voltages (naming and safe voltage for everyday use or oc'ing)

7 hours ago, jaybee83 said:

 

what AMD provides with their platform longevity is CHOICE.

Yep. And sometimes you get less than expected(I don't talk about the gaming performance). I really hope AMD don't screw up this time for the 7000 series Ryzen refresh. 

 

Another tradeoff besides overclocking was the slightly reduced clock speeds and that may still be a thing on the AMD Ryzen 7000X3D CPUs given that the performance benefit that comes from cache makes up for the losses that occur due to the reduced clocks.

[Mr. Fox]

1 hour ago, tps3443 said:

Crazy how HOT DDR5 gets! I ran my DDR5@7200XMP CL34 super high tREFI@262,000 tFAW@16 only 1.400V

 

This was just a optimized XMP profile.
 

I ran full 32GB coverage with 32 iterations of HCI Memtest (NO FANS lol)

 

It finally gave out with a BSOD at 59C memory temps! Too hot to hold your hand on. 

I am surprised it made it that high before the BSOD. Usually see errors start to occur about 8-10°C sooner than that. I have found that a memory overclock that is unstable at 45°C might run error-free at 35°C, and vice versa. It kind of makes sense considering the clock speeds and voltage though. You can't do that without producing heat.

 

That's why using a fan or putting them on water is recommended. Taking the stock heatsinks beautifying heating blankets off also helps, but not doing it the right way can rip the chips off the PCB because the imbeciles that manufacture RAM use adhesives that are stronger than the solder. (They don't need to use any adhesives and it is ridiculous that they do.)

 

 

[Papusan]

Nvidia Ceo Jensen should take a look in the mirror and try grasp reality... If he continue it's price strategy from Mining era for 4000 series cards it will go him bad. 

 

Sales of graphics cards hit lowest sales since a decade
by Hilbert Hagedoorn on: 11/28/2022

 

 

Yep, nvidia have to get rid of their old EOL cards they tried to push on the gamers while they sold all the Ampere cards to the miners. Those are also overpriced vs whats worth. People buy used instead of feed Nvidia with more money for old EOL cards.
NVIDIA Reportedly Ends Production of GeForce RTX 2060 & GTX 1660 Series Graphics Cards
https://wccftech.com/nvidia-reportedly-ends-production-of-geforce-rtx-2060-gtx-1660-series-graphics-cards/

 

 

The ugly truth for 4080... Many of the new 4080 cards from Nvidia will have a decent life in the stores shelves😃 Why pay 70% premium vs last gen xx80 Sku? The €20 discount below MSRP is a Joke, and the gamers should let them stay in the stores. Don't buy!!!

 

GeForce RTX 4080 below MSRP, but only by €20 and only for a limited time

Probably no reason to get excited just yet, but a good sign nonetheless. 
https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-geforce-rtx-4080-temporarily-drops-below-msrp-in-germany

 

 

About time Nvidia has to follow AMD's road to Canossa... The nore they wait the worse it will be.

 

AMD Ryzen 7000 get significant price cuts on official webstore
https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryzen-7000-cpus-get-official-new-low-prices-on-amd-webstore

 

The company has now followed other big retailers who were the first to offer desktop Ryzen 7000 series at significantly lower prices. The discount applies to all four Ryzen 7000 SKUs that were released less than two months ago.