*Official Benchmark Thread* - Post it here or it didn't happen :D

[Raiderman]

So I've gone through 5 or 6 Windows 10 LTSC installs, and finally found one that I might stick with. It's  22h2 Windows lot. Not sure if it's a bug with the install, but it resets to the default theme after every reboot. I'm using a modified iso, so that may be the problem as well. Hopefully I will find some time this weekend to run some benchmarks. Of course I may be formatting again if this install pisses me off further. Meanwhile Windows 7 purrs along on the other nvme with three drivers not installed, and two disabled, (AMD wifi, and the integrated Radeon gpu). Canonkong helping me figure out the three that won't install. Honestly I'm having more issues with the Windows 10 install, than with 7...*shrug*

[Tenoroon]

I managed to find a a guy selling a barebones P870TM and I plan on getting it as I dislike the cooling on the 1080 in the P775 and have some extra money re-cooperated from selling some old devices and fixing some stuff up.

 

I'm really considering pulling the trigger, but my only question is if the Prema BIOS for these machines supports 9th gen CPUs. This one luckily has a Prema BIOS and I'm just curious if it can do that as it would be an added benefit.

[Mr. Fox]

17 minutes ago, Raiderman said:

So I've gone through 5 or 6 Windows 10 LTSC installs, and finally found one that I might stick with. It's  22h2 Windows lot. Not sure if it's a bug with the install, but it resets to the default theme after every reboot. I'm using a modified iso, so that may be the problem as well. Hopefully I will find some time this weekend to run some benchmarks. Of course I may be formatting again if this install pisses me off further. Meanwhile Windows 7 purrs along on the other nvme with three drivers not installed, and two disabled, (AMD wifi, and the integrated Radeon gpu). Canonkong helping me figure out the three that won't install. Honestly I'm having more issues with the Windows 10 install, than with 7...*shrug*

Why not LTSC 2019 (1809)? It has less cancer.

 

Just use a normal ISO and run the script to destroy/remove Defender and then use CTT debloat script and you're good to go. It will cut your life-sucking services by about half and be similar to Windows 7 overhead.

 

The modified ISO files are often very buggy and I don't use them. And, the end product isn't any better than doing what I suggested.

[Mr. Fox]

7 minutes ago, Tenoroon said:

I managed to find a a guy selling a barebones P870TM and I plan on getting it as I dislike the cooling on the 1080 in the P775 and have some extra money re-cooperated from selling some old devices and fixing some stuff up.

 

I'm really considering pulling the trigger, but my only question is if the Prema BIOS for these machines supports 9th gen CPUs. This one luckily has a Prema BIOS and I'm just curious if it can do that as it would be an added benefit.

I can't remember now, and don't really want to. Maybe someone else knows and can give you some sound advice.

 

That said, a P870 is a whole lot better than a P7XX.

[electrosoft]

39 minutes ago, Tenoroon said:

I managed to find a a guy selling a barebones P870TM and I plan on getting it as I dislike the cooling on the 1080 in the P775 and have some extra money re-cooperated from selling some old devices and fixing some stuff up.

 

I'm really considering pulling the trigger, but my only question is if the Prema BIOS for these machines supports 9th gen CPUs. This one luckily has a Prema BIOS and I'm just curious if it can do that as it would be an added benefit.

 

IIRC, the P870TM(1) supports the 1080 (and 1070/1060) with Prema. I also ran a 9900ks in my P870TM1 with Prema too. It was updated to the newest version from HIDevolution at the time.

 

 

[Tenoroon]

6 minutes ago, electrosoft said:

 

IIRC, the P870TM(1) supports the 1080 (and 1070/1060) with Prema. I also ran a 9900ks in my P870TM1 with Prema too. It was updated to the newest version from HIDevolution at the time.

 

 

Yeah, the one I'm looking into was originally shipped with a 1080 and 8700k. I hope I don't have to do any vBIOS flashing to get my 1080 working in it, but all should be well. The seller noted the laptop has the newest version of the Prema BIOS on it which is nice.

Also, do you or anyone else know if that 4th fan was ever found for the TM? I remember reading the P870TM Owner's Lounges and seeing Meaker say the 4th fan wasn't really needed, but I feel like I've read somewhere that someone found a fan that would fit on top of the CPU heatsink and that it was quite effective.

[Mr. Fox]

I am feeling kind of proud of myself. I had several opportunities today to purchase "not from reseller/sold and shipped by" Zotac and MSI Suprim 4090 GPUs today between $1700 and $1800 on Amazon and NewEgg (including one just about 10 minutes ago). While I was tempted, I said no to checking out, emptied my shopping cart and walked away. 12 equal payments with zero interest wasn't enough to change my mind. These would have been easy payments, but when I considered the cost per month it seemed like more money than the degree of pleasure I would derive from having it. The lure was definitely very tempting though. I think I would be lucky to get 90 days worth of benching fun out of it before it no longer served any useful purpose for me.

 

It is probably good that I do not have a Microcenter here or I would likely be doing a "free road test" right now knowing I could bench it a bit and get my money back if I changed my mind.

[kaz26]

I got an 11,000+ Time Spy score on my Clevo N960Kx finally!  I also got 6300 multi-core on CPU-z and some good scores on Geekbench 5

Laptop specs are in my signature, feel free to PM questions, or check out the thread I created for this machine. 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Fox]

I know they absolutely do not care, but at least they are going to hear it.

[Papusan]

Microsoft's system requirements for running Win 11 downplayed by MSI, LOOL

 

Researcher Claims Windows 11 Secure Boot Is Broken On Hundreds Of MSI Motherboards

Among the requirements for installing Windows 11 are two security features: Trusted Platform Module (TPM) version 2.0 and Secure Boot. As we’ve documented before, it’s possible to sidestep these requirements and force a Windows 11 install or upgrade anyway.

 

What a kick in the asss, HaHa

 

https://hwbot.org/submission/5175686_papusan_hwbot_x265_benchmark___4k_core_2_quad_q9000_1.22_fps

 

https://hwbot.org/submission/5175683_papusan_hwbot_x265_benchmark___1080p_core_2_quad_q9000_5.08_fps

[Mr. Fox]

7 hours ago, Papusan said:

LOOL and it continue. Either people download the latest and greatest Intel Chipset drivers on Asus own official driver support page or in the driver thread in Asus forum..... They all continue install bugged drivers with a nice surprise as boot errors. And the more warnings you put out in the forum thread, the more they want to download and install, HaHa 

 

 

 

 https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?131838-DRIVERS-Intel-Chipset-MEI-VMD-(6xx-7xx)/page2

 

 

Edit. Still not a single world record worth with 13900KS. I expect the elite benchers got the golden samples of 13900K silicon from Intel and partners before the 13th gen was released.... https://hwbot.org/hardware/processor/core_i9_13900ks/

To build on the reality of consumer stupidity and ignorance, here is a repost of my comments in EVGA forum. People keep griping that EVGA is not updating IME or providing new ME drivers, which is utterly retarded. EVGA actually allow disabling Intel ME in the BIOS, but they are oblivious to that benefit that other OEMs do not offer. EVGA also leaves it unlocked so you can easily flash an old ME version if you wish to do that. Most OEMs do not allow it to be disabled/enabled in the BIOS at will, or downgraded to an older firmware version.

---

There is no tangible benefit to updating Intel ME firmware or drivers, or Intel Chipset "drivers" (which are not actually drivers at all). There is no point in EVGA updating it either. An Intel ME firmware update will not improve performance, but has potential to impair performance through the worthless watchdog timer. This can be disabled in the BIOS and ME drivers omitted because it serves no valid functional purpose on a consumer product unless they are using vPro. It is designed for use in an enterprise environment and as a backdoor access point that can be exploited by hackers, Intel and Micro$lop. For this reason it is often disabled on government computer systems.

 

DISABLE INTEL’S BACKDOOR ON MODERN HARDWARE

 

Intel’s Management Engine

 

Quote

Intel Active Management Technology (AMT) is hardware and firmware technology for remote out-of-band management of personal computers. It allows someone else to monitor, maintain, update, upgrade, and repair a computer. Out-of-band (OOB) or hardware-based management is different from software-based (or in-band) management and software management agents. Purism Librem computers avoids CPUs that have AMT (or as Intel calls it vPro enabled), and do not use Intel based networking, thus disabling this capability at the hardware level. However this does not change what the ME is capable of, which is why having a freed ME is so important to the Free Software Foundations Respects Your Freedom

certification.

 

https://forums.evga.com/FindPost/3594874

 

At the end of the day you're better off with a bricked ME than a functional one. The behavior and stability of your computer will be unaffected, but it might be more secure.

[Talon]

On 1/13/2023 at 2:34 PM, Mr. Fox said:

Did you even find one at a Microcenter? It is rare to find one available anywhere except from scalpers. I am not sure why availability is so poor. Maybe just a way to keep pricing jacked up. Even at MSRP ($700) on the ASUS store page it is overpriced. It wouldn't be as bad if their warranty and support service were not so slow and sucky.

 

It would be nice if we started seeing ASUS, MSI, Gigabyte and others do like EVGA and essentially only sell their products on their own store pages or micro-sites managed through their own sales department and cut out resellers entirely. This would help keep prices in check, as the OEM would determine the price, and anything sold through another channel would be deemed as undesirable overpriced scalper/gray market trash, or consumer-to-consumer sales or used parts.

---

@Talon BIOS 2.08 (E699 DARK K|NGP|N / E698 Classified)

 

Please note that this is a Beta BIOS, but it is stable enough for those of you who wish to test to give it a shot. 

• Updates CPU microcode to 10E and provides microcode option 105 (has lower VID value)
• Supports CPU 13900KS OC table.
• Supports CPU 13100.
• Adds undervolt protection item (Microcode 10E only).
• Adds CPU power limit item.
• Improves memory stability.

 

Edit: So far I find nothing to complain about. The ability to at-will change from CPU microcode 10E to 105 is nice and 105 microcode definitely lowered VID. My memory overclocking seems to be great as well. Unless I find something I do not like that I have not seen yet, I think this is the best BIOS update they have had since launch.

 

 

Thanks!!! This BIOS is SOLID for me so far. Finally got 8000 CL36 with my green dies and a terrible IMC stable. Going to test 8200, maybe even swap in another chip to see if I can get it stable. Very happy with 8000 CL36 though. Happy to see EVGA still supporting this board and getting A-Die on track finally. 

[Mr. Fox]

8 minutes ago, Talon said:

 

Thanks!!! This BIOS is SOLID for me so far. Finally got 8000 CL36 with my green dies and a terrible IMC stable. Going to test 8200, maybe even swap in another chip to see if I can get it stable. Very happy with 8000 CL36 though. Happy to see EVGA still supporting this board and getting A-Die on track finally. 

You're welcome. I am glad that you're getting results as good as I am. Be sure to post in the BIOS update thread. There are a lot of whiners with Classified boards complaining that their 4-slot mobos don't overclock the memory as well as the 2-slot Dark, Apex or Unify-X motherboards, and some are expecting their low budget Samsung B-die to overclock like Hynix, LOL.

 

What is your forum name at EVGA Community? It looks like there are 3 or 4 "Talons" over there and I can never figure out which one is you.

 

Some 4090 owners are having no-POST/BIOS freeze issues, some with black screen issues until Windows loads (no video in BIOS), with the GPU installed. Some kind of weird vBIOS firmware conflict. What GPU are you running? Have you had any issues on the Dark mobo with it?

[Talon]

16 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

You're welcome. I am glad that you're getting results as good as I am. Be sure to post in the BIOS update thread. There are a lot of whiners with Classified boards complaining that their 4-slot mobos don't overclock the memory as well as the 2-slot Dark, Apex or Unify-X motherboards, and some are expecting their low budget Samsung B-die to overclock like Hynix, LOL.

 

What is your forum name at EVGA Community? It looks like there are 3 or 4 "Talons" over there and I can never figure out which one is you.

 

Some 4090 owners are having no-POST/BIOS freeze issues, some with black screen issues until Windows loads (no video in BIOS), with the GPU installed. Some kind of weird vBIOS firmware conflict. What GPU are you running? Have you had any issues on the Dark mobo with it?

 

Will do, I'll update in the thread. At this point I am convinced getting 8200 stable is my weaker IMC on this particular CPU I have in the board. I think it's like a 67 MC or lower. I'll test with a 77MC and see if that gets 8200 or higher stable. 

 

I had a black screen until OS load issue with this board and Asus boards until Nvidia released a vBIOS firmware update to fix that issue. Never had an issue since, and that firmware was released by Nvidia within a couple weeks after launch of 4090. I believe it was only when using HDMI to my OLED TV since my regular monitor never had any issue. 

 

EDIT: I forgot to add I have a 4090 FE in the Dark setup. 

 

I've definitely seen the whining! Expecting a 4-dimm board to perform like the 2-dimm setups when pushing the edge is just ridiculous. They make the 2-dimm setup for a reason. EVGA was pretty slow to get their A-Die running properly, and I felt like giving up on their board, but I'm glad I still have it. 

 

I have Talon2020 as my name on EVGA forums. 

[electrosoft]

8 hours ago, Tenoroon said:

Yeah, the one I'm looking into was originally shipped with a 1080 and 8700k. I hope I don't have to do any vBIOS flashing to get my 1080 working in it, but all should be well. The seller noted the laptop has the newest version of the Prema BIOS on it which is nice.

Also, do you or anyone else know if that 4th fan was ever found for the TM? I remember reading the P870TM Owner's Lounges and seeing Meaker say the 4th fan wasn't really needed, but I feel like I've read somewhere that someone found a fan that would fit on top of the CPU heatsink and that it was quite effective.

 

As long as it is the newest version (the one that also enabled 2000 series support), it will support 9th gen too. When I received my unit the version of Prema on it only supported 8th gen and 1000 series at the time before Zoltan (when he was with HIDevolution) did a remote session and upgraded it to the newest enabling 9th/2000 support.

 

As for the 4th fan, I think a few users did a mod with it on the old NBR. I know @jc_denton explored the idea but I'm unsure if he went ahead and installed one.

 

7 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

I am feeling kind of proud of myself. I had several opportunities today to purchase "not from reseller/sold and shipped by" Zotac and MSI Suprim 4090 GPUs today between $1700 and $1800 on Amazon and NewEgg (including one just about 10 minutes ago). While I was tempted, I said no to checking out, emptied my shopping cart and walked away. 12 equal payments with zero interest wasn't enough to change my mind. These would have been easy payments, but when I considered the cost per month it seemed like more money than the degree of pleasure I would derive from having it. The lure was definitely very tempting though. I think I would be lucky to get 90 days worth of benching fun out of it before it no longer served any useful purpose for me.

 

It is probably good that I do not have a Microcenter here or I would likely be doing a "free road test" right now knowing I could bench it a bit and get my money back if I changed my mind.

 

I've done that so many times with various items over the years. There is a sense of satisfaction when you know you could have purchased it but opted not to. When presented with the moment, common sense (for now 🙂 ) kicked in.

 

If I still had my 3090ti I would not have picked up a 4090. I was blessed to be able to sell my KPE 3090 at the height of the crypto-crazy times for more than I paid for it and sell my KPE 3090ti for everything I paid for it when all was said and done (I think I came out ahead by like ~$50-100 when all was said and done) to afford me the chance to pick up a 4090 free and clear of other financially dragging cards. I basically swapped my 3090ti for a 4090.

 

The 4090 is a monster upgrade especially with the newer RT cores. 4k gaming with the 3090 and 3090ti still hit walls and lows the 4090 overcomes now placing the burden on the CPU while still capping my display in FO76 and coming real close in WoW. My next upgrade is definitely a CPU. I'm not seeing how the 5090 will offer me anything that would be an improvement for my use case*. My problem will now be CPU limits.

 

You could always set a price for your KPE 3090 and list it and if it sells apply that to a 4090.

 

You can also pick one up from Amazon that, unlike Newegg, has a full return policy versus replacement only policy.

 

 

 

 

*As always I reserve the right to eat crow and pick one up because.....why not? 🤪

[Mr. Fox]

1 hour ago, electrosoft said:

I've done that so many times with various items over the years. There is a sense of satisfaction when you know you could have purchased it but opted not to. When presented with the moment, common sense (for now 🙂 ) kicked in.

 

If I still had my 3090ti I would not have picked up a 4090. I was blessed to be able to sell my KPE 3090 at the height of the crypto-crazy times for more than I paid for it and sell my KPE 3090ti for everything I paid for it when all was said and done (I think I came out ahead by like ~$50-100 when all was said and done) to afford me the chance to pick up a 4090 free and clear of other financially dragging cards. I basically swapped my 3090ti for a 4090.

 

The 4090 is a monster upgrade especially with the newer RT cores. 4k gaming with the 3090 and 3090ti still hit walls and lows the 4090 overcomes now placing the burden on the CPU while still capping my display in FO76 and coming real close in WoW. My next upgrade is definitely a CPU. I'm not seeing how the 5090 will offer me anything that would be an improvement for my use case*. My problem will now be CPU limits.

 

You could always set a price for your KPE 3090 and list it and if it sells apply that to a 4090.

 

You can also pick one up from Amazon that, unlike Newegg, has a full return policy versus replacement only policy.

 

*As always I reserve the right to eat crow and pick one up because.....why not? 🤪

One always have to be very careful with Amazon and Newegg to only purchase products that are sold and shipped by them and not resellers. It's a roll of the dice what the return policy will be if you buy from a third party vendor selling in their marketplace.

 

One of the things that gives me pause is what anecdotally seems like a normalization of performance and limited ability to overclock enough to distinguish yourself on a leaderboard. If this is true, it kind of defeats the primary purpose of me wanting one. I'd never buy it with gaming being the primary purpose. I do that too little for it to matter and both of the GPUs I own are more than capable of providing a very gratifying experience when I do. 

 

I also remind myself that it's not a one and done. I don't want air cooling and I don't want hybrid. So that means added cost for a waterblock and I don't want to use the crappy short pigtail so it means either a PSU upgrade or a fairly affordable Cablemod replacement. So, whatever I do requires additional costs to have what I want, how I want it.

[Papusan]

Seems Nvidia will go the laptop route for RTX 4060Ti and castrate the TGP. Why do the same for the desktop cards? The same for 4070. There have been rumors regarding Nvidia reportedly pushing the power envelope of the RTX 4070 down to 200 W from 250W. 

 

Surprisingly-low RTX 4060 Ti TDP figure could see the GPU consume much less power than the RTX 3060 Ti

[tps3443]

@electrosoft

I really love this CPU. It is a wicked beast man. I have been tempted by some really high SP 13900KS chips, or maybe even binning a couple of them but a lot of their VID's are pure crap! For example, I know of a P-SP125 which sounds utterly ridiculous. However, its 5.8Ghz Vf is like 1.398V. (My 5.8Ghz VID is 1.364) I have seen quite a few like this. But then I see just a couple here and there with really low VID's drastically better than my measly P-SP121 lol (Not an abundance of them though). But I have determined it is a gamble with the 13900KS and I'm not really sure why it's like this. Chances are a P-SP120 13900K will beat out P-SP120 13900KS lol. It's really interesting this time around for the KS variant.  I say this because, you can go out and buy a binned 13900KS, but then see the actual VF Curve for each frequency and it does not add up at all. The 13900K seemed to be much more consistent, while the 13900KS is just all over the place. Plenty of high P-SP 13900KS chips out there, but only a fraction of those chips have VID's that match accordingly and make it worth exploring their overclocking potential. 

This is my 13900K at 6.1Ghz. I allow the (2) best cores to run at 6.3Ghz. 

Some Battlefield 2042 at 6.1Ghz lol. It's actually stable for daily usage. 

PS: Still running @Mr. Fox Z690 Unify-X. This motherboard has been extremely reliable for me! I do not know why in the heck MSI did not launch a Z790 Unify-X, they would be killing it right now with something slightly less expensive to compete. We pretty much have (2) choices and both involve getting bent over lol. Apex 790, and Dark 790. 
 

[cylix]

Well looks like Cablemod connectors are not 100% good..

 

[Papusan]

2 hours ago, cylix said:

Well looks like Cablemod connectors are not 100% good..

 

And we will most likely never know how many cables and GPU's they have replaced😎 

 

 

And I hope this one don't own the 4090. And if he had, I'm sure he would never post pict of his fried cable/connector on reddit if the same happened to him, LOOL

 

And to make it complete. Cable mod offer dual chance to not put in the cable fully seated in the GPU connector. You can reduce the cable bend with the fancy 90 degrees adaper but still fry your shiny 4090😀

[Mr. Fox]

5 hours ago, Papusan said:

Seems Nvidia will go the laptop route for RTX 4060Ti and castrate the TGP. Why do the same for the desktop cards? The same for 4070. There have been rumors regarding Nvidia reportedly pushing the power envelope of the RTX 4070 down to 200 W from 250W. 

 

Surprisingly-low RTX 4060 Ti TDP figure could see the GPU consume much less power than the RTX 3060 Ti

It doesn't need to perform well, run cool, or hold boost clocks as long as desktop screenshots are impressive and marketing materials convey a positively crafted story to please the kiddos. Optics are job #1. It's all about selling. Results are optional, and achieved only by accident.

[Talon]

2 hours ago, cylix said:

Well looks like Cablemod connectors are not 100% good..

 

 

A single cable out of the many thousands they've likely sold does not equal not good. The cable was not fully seated, plain and simple. It's been proven and tested to be the cause of the fried cables. There is a reason why the issue has mostly disappeared after those findings were shown, and the masses figured out they needed to seat their cable. This guy stated he was regularly checking the cable over a couple of months and likely managed to finally not seat it fully. 

[Mr. Fox]

4 hours ago, Talon said:

 

A single cable out of the many thousands they've likely sold does not equal not good. The cable was not fully seated, plain and simple. It's been proven and tested to be the cause of the fried cables. There is a reason why the issue has mostly disappeared after those findings were shown, and the masses figured out they needed to seat their cable. This guy stated he was regularly checking the cable over a couple of months and likely managed to finally not seat it fully. 

Well said. I totally agree with that. I think it is spot on. 👍 Seems like human nature is to make a federal case from every anomaly and fabricate an impression of crisis from fringe exceptions.

 

 

That said, there is a secondary element to it that is inescapable. The new connector design is flawed and poorly conceived to the extent that it makes the possibility of failure due to human error magnified. Even if you know of the problem and solution, there is the possibility for human error or unknown factors to lead to a truly unfortunate outcome. By unknown factors, I mean the cable gets disturbed in such a way that the connection becomes compromised without the user's awareness. It is unfortunate that more thought and intellgence was not employed before the change in design was deployed.

 

GPUs with multiple 6+2 pin connectors are much less likely to experience the same problem because power delivery is handled through more than one conduit. If one of the two or three connectors is not fully seated, the additional 8 or 16 connection points reduce the amount of resistance and stress experienced by the one cable with the poor connection. The new design limits the conduit to a single point of connection and creates much greater risk for resistance and overheating to occur. There is only one shot to get it right, and if it's not right there is potentially going to be hell to pay for it.

 

This was an example of change for the sake of change, for the sake of creating the need for something new to sell, for the sake of making more money. It was not a change born of necessity or need. It was a demonstration of collusion, greed and an irrational need for the Green Goblin to take control, and make itself the center of attention as an agent of change and disruption of the industry.

 

NVIDIA is getting caught with their pants down. Poor judgment seems like a popular trend.

[ryan]

was having issues getting past 2000 in speedway but i did it. not good for a 130w 3060 but hey this is the life in 115w language

[Papusan]

 

NVidia, AMD & Intel at CES 2023 - LIES and more LIES

 

 

Todays word - GREED... Overclocking banned due greed and lack of willingness (will).

 

Amd lock down their more expensive flagship Ryzen gamer kid chips for oc'ing while Intel lock out their non K chips from overclocking. Not so sure whats worst from those two stupids but AMD probably take the whole cake with their non overclockable X3D chips. 

RIP, Overclockable Intel Non-K Chips, We Hardly Knew Ye tomshardware.com 
Intel blocks overclocking on locked chips by...doing nothing.

 

In a development sure to disappoint enthusiasts, it turns out that Intel's 'locked' Non-K 13th-Gen Raptor Lake models are not overclockable like the previous-gen Alder Lake chips. We verified that the previous-gen non-K chips can still be overclocked, but unfortunately, the newer 13th-Gen models cannot. According to our industry contacts, it doesn't look like the situation will change any time soon.

 

 

Regarding greed and stupidity... Apple ain't far away from how Intel and AMD. They take greed to another level....

 

 

TRADE IN?
Apple will offer you $970 for a $52,000 Mac Pro Cheese grater techspot.com

 

David Imel, a researcher for tech YouTube channel Marques Brownlee, tweeted that they tried pricing the $52,199 Mac Pros at the company's office to determine their trade-in value. The machines can still be purchased from Apple's website, complete with Intel Xeon W processors and dual Radeon Pro W6800X graphics, for the same price, so one would expect Apple to offer a fair amount of that money for trade-ins. Sadly, the company thinks $970 is a fair amount.

 

 

Isnt it cute... You can order the Apple's Cheese grater today and trade it in tomorrow for a fraction of the price you paid. This even if you never opened the package and tested the fancy Cheese grater. This just show how  much todays tech is worth 🙂