State of the socket - are there any 2022 laptops with socketed CPU and GPU?

[FredSRichardson]

Well, I just saw the discouraging thread on this topic somewhere on these boards - I think regarding Clevo / Sager systems not offering socketed laptops this year.

 

Is this the case all around?

[FredSRichardson]

This was a very eye opening video for me - an RTX 3000 installed in a 9 year old laptop!

 

 

[aldarxt]

I think https://eurocom.com/ec/main()ec might be about it

They have a new one "EUROCOM Raptor X15" that comes with an RTX 3070 TI, but dont know if its removable. But for a 2 grand basic then load it up with my own junk seems like a better option than paying their OC$. Just window shopping now

But yeah what ssj92 did is very inspiring and gave me alot of hope for my 10 year old m18r2 so I bought a 9 year old m17xr4

[FredSRichardson]

I think Eurocom is a Clevo (and other?) reseller - but they are pretty cagy about which Clevo model each system is based off of.  I think the Raptor X15 uses a BGA GPU.  The Sky Z7 R2 I think is MXM 3.x - definitely a Clevo but I'm not sure which model.

 

The latest Clevo DTR socketed system I think is the X170KM-G.  This can get really pricey configured with a high end 3080 GPU - like $3.5K USD...

 

It's not well advertised that this has an MXM socketed GPU (only one or two resellers mention this explicitly), though the socketed CPU is apparent in most descriptions.  Fortunately the service manual clarifies this and is available from Shenker here:  https://download.schenker-tech.de/package/xmg-ultra-17-id-xul17e21/

 

But the forum comments on this site for the X170KM-G are not at all encouraging - people are having a very difficult time getting this laptop to behave.  From what little I've read there are a bugs to sort through and (as always) major cooling issues requiring nerfing the hardware with TS etc.  The X170SM-G thread is a lot quieter by comparison for that older and very similar model.

 

I would hope that this is early days with this laptop - but that assumes Clevo will kick in with some support work.  The rumor I've heard but can't at all verify is that Clevo is moving away from socketed DTR systems which is definitely sad...  I hope they at least sort things out with this laptop...

[GT3000]

On 4/9/2022 at 2:28 PM, FredSRichardson said:

I think Eurocom is a Clevo (and other?) reseller - but they are pretty cagy about which Clevo model each system is based off of.  I think the Raptor X15 uses a BGA GPU.  The Sky Z7 R2 I think is MXM 3.x - definitely a Clevo but I'm not sure which model.

 

The latest Clevo DTR socketed system I think is the X170KM-G.  This can get really pricey configured with a high end 3080 GPU - like $3.5K USD...

 

It's not well advertised that this has an MXM socketed GPU (only one or two resellers mention this explicitly), though the socketed CPU is apparent in most descriptions.  Fortunately the service manual clarifies this and is available from Shenker here:  https://download.schenker-tech.de/package/xmg-ultra-17-id-xul17e21/

 

But the forum comments on this site for the X170KM-G are not at all encouraging - people are having a very difficult time getting this laptop to behave.  From what little I've read there are a bugs to sort through and (as always) major cooling issues requiring nerfing the hardware with TS etc.  The X170SM-G thread is a lot quieter by comparison for that older and very similar model.

 

I would hope that this is early days with this laptop - but that assumes Clevo will kick in with some support work.  The rumor I've heard but can't at all verify is that Clevo is moving away from socketed DTR systems which is definitely sad...  I hope they at least sort things out with this laptop...

 

It does appear to be a BGA GPU but socket CPU.

 

Raptor X15 is a Clevo NH55JNNQ
https://www.clevo.com.tw/clevo_prodetail.asp?id=1571&lang=en

[FredSRichardson]

I think X170KM-G (and prior X170SM-G) may be the only models with MXM GPU and socketed CPU.  I had to check the manual because all models come "configured" with a single GPU option - but the GPU is socketed:

 

https://download.schenker-tech.de/package/xmg-ultra-17-id-xul17e21/?wpdmdl=3947&ind=1618540205850

[Clamibot]

The Clevo NH55JNNQ is the only Clevo laptop from this year that has a socketed CPU.

 

Similarly, the X170SM-G and the X170KM-G are Clevo's 2020 and 2021 socketed laptop models for Intel CPUs. They also had two 15 inch DTRs with AMD desktop CPUs inside them, one in 2020 with the Ryzen 9 3950X and one in 2021 with the Ryzen 9 5950X. I forget the model number for those two, but the NH55JNNQ is effectively their successor since it's a 15 inch DTR itself.

 

It's strange that Clevo is moving away from socketed hardware since this has been their specialty for about 30 years now. Despite them moving to mainly BGA systems, I do expect them to still come out with one or two per year. The prosumer market has a need for these types of laptops, so I expect them to stick around. There will just be reduced options compared to before.

 

The issues with the X170KM-G are weird. The X170SM-G works without a hitch in most cases. It also can technically support all the same hardware the KM model does. All the SM needs is a BIOS update for Intel 11th gen CPUs to actually work. I think RTX 30xx GPUs will aready run with an SM motherboad, the only caveat being that you need to perform a driver INF mod to force the drivers to install. I think Clevo should've just updated the BIOS on some SM boards and rebranded them as KM motherboards. That would've done away with all the issues we're seeing with the KM models.

[jaybee83]

based on rumors, there might be something going on from Nvidia's side, i.e. Clevo wanted to do a "3090 Ti" MXM version but were not allowed to go through with it. other ODMs might also be pushing against this kind of upgradeability, since that would let their full on BGA machines look like the insta-junk they really are 😄 

 

as for the NH55JNNQ, the gpu is soldered, everything else is socketed. dear god i sure hope Clevo holds on to desktop cpu machines as long as possible....

i totally would not mind a desktop CPU machine with the space reserved for dedicated GPU used for a maximized 100Wh battery and proper FULL support of thunderbolt external GPUs. that would be sweet! 

 

HOWEVER, on the upgradeability path for older machines, there is still a way forward, albeit costly and rare: MXM quadros.

aside from the P5000 / P5200 (Pascal), RTX 5000 (Turing), were now at RTX A4500 (Ampere), and they ALL come in standard MXM form factors 🙂 

[Clamibot]

1 hour ago, jaybee83 said:

based on rumors, there might be something going on from Nvidia's side, i.e. Clevo wanted to do a "3090 Ti" MXM version but were not allowed to go through with it. other ODMs might also be pushing against this kind of upgradeability, since that would let their full on BGA machines look like the insta-junk they really are 😄 

 

as for the NH55JNNQ, the gpu is soldered, everything else is socketed. dear god i sure hope Clevo holds on to desktop cpu machines as long as possible....

i totally would not mind a desktop CPU machine with the space reserved for dedicated GPU used for a maximized 100Wh battery and proper FULL support of thunderbolt external GPUs. that would be sweet! 

 

HOWEVER, on the upgradeability path for older machines, there is still a way forward, albeit costly and rare: MXM quadros.

aside from the P5000 / P5200 (Pascal), RTX 5000 (Turing), were now at RTX A4500 (Ampere), and they ALL come in standard MXM form factors 🙂 

 

Seems what you want and what I want are very similar. I'd like a 17-19 inch laptop with just a desktop CPU, Zx90 series chipset so I can overclock the crap out of the CPU, and no dGPU. That would be perfect since as you said, the extra space afforded can give us a large battery, maybe even two or three. I remember some older laptops had dual battery options that would put the effective capacity over 100 Wh. The TSA only limits battery capacities to 100 Wh per battery. The limit for the number of batteries of that capacity that a single individual can take on a plane with them is 3.

 

LOL imagine a DTR with tha abovementioned properties and a triple battery option. That'd leave ultrabooks in the dust on battery life.

 

The thing with laptops is that if you're gaming on one, it's plugged in, so whether the GPU is physically inside the laptop or not does not matter. A slim eGPU + DTR with only a CPU would be the perfect setup. People who want a DTR probably don't care much about weight, so adding an eGPU to the list of things you have to carry is probably not a problem, especially if it's a slim and compact enclosure only a little larger than the actual GPU itself.

 

I think eGPUs are going to be the future of GPU upgradeability in laptops since MXM is practically dead for regular consumers at this point. MXM is now only used in industrial settings as far as I'm aware. The performance penalty of externalizing the GPU has also massively decreased with the newer Thunderbolt 4 implementation.

[Papusan]

What a Ugly mess. What's the point add in an 125 W LGA 12700K in a laptop if the Cpu ain't able to run the way its meant to do? Neither will Clevo let the Cpu run at temps the Cpu can handle. Isn't this a flawed design from Clevo bro @Mr. Fox @jc_denton ? This level of engineering from Clevo is darn disgusting.

 

 

Eurocom Raptor X15 review: LGA1700 Core i7-12700K in a laptop
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Eurocom-Raptor-X15-review-LGA1700-Core-i7-12700K-in-a-laptop.620093.0.html

 

 

 

 

[jaybee83]

39 minutes ago, Papusan said:

What a Ugly mess. What's the point add in an 125 W LGA 12700K in a laptop if the Cpu ain't able to run the way its meant to do? Neither will Clevo let the Cpu run at temps the Cpu can handle. Isn't this a flawed design from Clevo bro @Mr. Fox @jc_denton ? This level of engineering from Clevo is darn disgusting.

 

 

Eurocom Raptor X15 review: LGA1700 Core i7-12700K in a laptop
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Eurocom-Raptor-X15-review-LGA1700-Core-i7-12700K-in-a-laptop.620093.0.html

 

 

 

 

yeah the issue here is that NBC is just running everything full stock and hitting it with prime95 😛 this is nothing new, every clevo needs some massaging before it can stretch its legs 😄 issue here being that the control center limits the max wattage depending on the profile and heatwise the stock setup aint perfect. the system can definitely let the cpu pull 140W from what weve seen so far, currently trying to tune the heat 🙂 

[Mr. Fox]

There is not even one single new laptop for sale now that I would consider spending money on. Not one. They're all just varying degrees of worthless, castrated, compromised garbage.

[Papusan]

5 hours ago, jaybee83 said:

yeah the issue here is that NBC is just running everything full stock and hitting it with prime95 😛 this is nothing new, every clevo needs some massaging before it can stretch its legs 😄 issue here being that the control center limits the max wattage depending on the profile and heatwise the stock setup aint perfect. the system can definitely let the cpu pull 140W from what weve seen so far, currently trying to tune the heat 🙂 

Seen the Cpu heatsink? Even worse than you get in BGA laptops. Two pipes for an 125w unlocked 12700K Cpu is retarded. On top of the whole mess, one of the pipes from the GPU  saturate the small wimpy Cpu heatsink grill with more heat. Remember Intel have scrapped the PL1 for desktops to keep Turbo boost active in full all core load. Clevo's HW engineers is drunk!!!

[Mr. Fox]

A lot of people used to say that you should never put a desktop CPU in a laptop. I've always disagreed at that, and I still do. There's no reason you can't or shouldn't. That's just stupid. What you shouldn't do is buy a laptop that isn't designed correctly. Oops. None of them are designed correctly anymore. None of them have the thermal management or engineering that they deserve. It doesn't matter whether they have a 25 watt CPU or a 250 watt CPU, they're all made like crap now. It's unfortunate because there's no excuse for it. Oh wait, it needs to be thin and light... Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Papusan]

19 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

A lot of people used to say that you should never put a desktop CPU in a laptop. I've always disagreed at that, and I still do. There's no reason you can't or shouldn't. That's just stupid. What you shouldn't do is buy a laptop that isn't designed correctly. Oops. None of them are designed correctly anymore. None of them have the thermal management or engineering that they deserve. It doesn't matter whether they have a 25 watt CPU or a 250 watt CPU, they're all made like crap now. It's unfortunate because there's no excuse for it. Oh wait, it needs to be thin and light... Yeah, that's the ticket.

Why put in two pipes for an 125w Cpu when they before used to add in +3 pipes for an Cpu that have an lower TDP ? And on top add a pipe from the GPU connected to the Cpu grill to make it complete. Yep.............

[1610ftw]

Clevo strategy 2022:

 

1. Go full retard on former flagship line and LGA laptops.

2. See customers not buying or returning those underperforming "flagships" and / or go somewhere else.

3. Finally show your true colors and go for thin and light for all future models because the top of the line models did not sell.

 

These days Clevo look like a slow motion trainwreck...

 

In any case good luck to those who went in for this thing and hopefully you will be able to extract some performance out of it even though this definitely in not a properly cooled flagship design.

 

 

[Mr. Fox]

Clevo started circling the drain when the P870 was discontinued. They've always had issues with quality control and lousy firmware that ruined the performance of their systems, but with some tinkering, a bit of modding, and a @Prema BIOS mod you ended up with something amazing. The tinkering and modding was part of the fun. But, the chintzy crap they're offering now is totally inexcusable. There's not enough modding in the world that is going to make up for the shortcomings. The BGA GPU is an absolutely unpardonable sin.

[jaybee83]

11 hours ago, Papusan said:

Seen the Cpu heatsink? Even worse than you get in BGA laptops. Two pipes for an 125w unlocked 12700K Cpu is retarded. On top of the whole mess, one of the pipes from the GPU  saturate the small wimpy Cpu heatsink grill with more heat. Remember Intel have scrapped the PL1 for desktops to keep Turbo boost active in full all core load. Clevo's HW engineers is drunk!!!

yep i agree on that part, the cpu heatsink couldve definitely used another heatpipe or two *sigh*

 

but tbh im just glad we were still able to get a current LGA system into my ladys's hands for future-proofing and easier servicing (even though the GPU is BGA and yes it makes my heart bleed)

[1610ftw]

1 hour ago, Mr. Fox said:

Clevo started circling the drain when the P870 was discontinued. They've always had issues with quality control and lousy firmware that ruined the performance of their systems, but with some tinkering, a bit of modding, and a @Prema BIOS mod you ended up with something amazing. The tinkering and modding was part of the fun. But, the chintzy crap they're offering now is totally inexcusable. There's not enough modding in the world that is going to make up for the shortcomings. The BGA GPU is an absolutely unpardonable sin.

 

All very true - Clevo never was the best out of the box and in certain areas they stayed mediocre at best for generations and I never found anything from them that I would have liked except for the P775, P870 and X170 chassis.

 

Woith regard to build quality and design there are several brands that could very well outdo Clevo if they decided to build a proper modular laptop but with the exception of two short lived MSI chassis in recent years they chose not to.

 

Maybe the best candidate for Clevo competition would be Uniwill (ex Tongfang) as their cooling seems to be better on a per volume basis than what Clevo offers and they also seem more flexible when it comes to different screens and other features. The downside is that they never had something really great but I would really hope they'd try their hand at a proper DTR if the big boys like Lenovo, Dell, HP and others continue on their crazy path for smaller and lighter at all costs.

 

As for the BGA GPU I could have understood Clevo going BGA for the 3080Ti especially if it is true that for this generation Nvidia did not want to cooperate with a high end MXM solution or even if they are actively working on a proper successor format to MXM which is something I have hoped for ever since the Nvidia GPUs started to need so much power.

 

That still does not give them an excuse for a soldered CPU when it could easily have had a socketed one with a good chance to be supported for several generations.

 

 

[Mr. Fox]

NVIDIA hasn't been cooperating with production of MXM for a long time.  They figured out with the Pascal generation that they could make a lot more money off of laptop manufacturers selling disposable turdbooks than they could with them selling upgradable and repairable systems.

[Reciever]

11 hours ago, jaybee83 said:

yep i agree on that part, the cpu heatsink couldve definitely used another heatpipe or two *sigh*

 

but tbh im just glad we were still able to get a current LGA system into my ladys's hands for future-proofing and easier servicing (even though the GPU is BGA and yes it makes my heart bleed)

Honestly from a NIB experience it is a bit disappointing but it doesnt look too difficult to make your own heatsink with that layout.

 

Of course this isnt justification for its current design.

 

Worst case scenario you could go the eGPU route I suppose if the GPU burns out or no longer beneficial as the primary.

[electrosoft]

On 6/11/2022 at 8:18 AM, jaybee83 said:

yep i agree on that part, the cpu heatsink couldve definitely used another heatpipe or two *sigh*

 

but tbh im just glad we were still able to get a current LGA system into my ladys's hands for future-proofing and easier servicing (even though the GPU is BGA and yes it makes my heart bleed)

 

BGA issues aside....

 

My issue is looking at the prototype for this at the trade show versus the final product is a slap in the face in regards to the heatsink. The original heatsink shown was much beefier for the CPU. Whoever decided to go from this:

 

 

To this:

 

 

Needs to be evaluated.....unless it is a bean counter then we know why.

 

Who in their right mind evaluated the 12th gen performance and heat generation and decided this was an acceptable solution is mind boggling.

 

 

 

[jaybee83]

1 hour ago, electrosoft said:

 

BGA issues aside....

 

My issue is looking at the prototype for this at the trade show versus the final product is a slap in the face in regards to the heatsink. The original heatsink shown was much beefier for the CPU. Whoever decided to go from this:

 

 

To this:

 

 

Needs to be evaluated.....unless it is a bean counter then we know why.

 

Who in their right mind evaluated the 12th gen performance and heat generation and decided this was an acceptable solution is mind boggling.

 

 

 

its almost like the cooling targets of CPU and GPU were swapped between prototype and mass production...

 

also look at the screw mounts, funny how initially the CPU side was tripod BS with GPU four point, whereas the final version is exactly the opposite...

[electrosoft]

1 hour ago, jaybee83 said:

its almost like the cooling targets of CPU and GPU were swapped between prototype and mass production...

 

also look at the screw mounts, funny how initially the CPU side was tripod BS with GPU four point, whereas the final version is exactly the opposite...

 

I like they gave the CPU a full 4 post mounting but even looking at their past 15.6" designs for desktop CPUs for both Intel and AMD I have no idea how this was their final boss heatsink especially looking at that early prototype.

 

Here's hoping Aliexpress has a good aftermarket design like those that have shown up for the X170, P870 and P77X series.

 

 

[aldarxt]

1 hour ago, jaybee83 said:

its almost like the cooling targets of CPU and GPU were swapped between prototype and mass production...

 

also look at the screw mounts, funny how initially the CPU side was tripod BS with GPU four point, whereas the final version is exactly the opposite...

The schematics were upside down