Dell Precision 7670 & Dell Precision 7770 owner's thread

[Aaron44126]

47 minutes ago, MyPC8MyBrain said:

this only effects 12th gen cpu?

 

If they just patched this in November, 13th gen physical design was of course long finished by then, so it will almost certainly get the updated microcode (likely before any laptops even ship to customers).

 

Anyway.  The good thing here is you don't have to upgrade your BIOS.  If your system is working good now then you can keep it that way.  Good thing Dell put out an update that addressed some of the thermal concerns before they put out one with the undervolt "fix".

 

For anyone concerned by this, turn off capsule updates in the BIOS and let other users "go first" when a new version comes out to see what happens.

[alittleteapot]

13 hours ago, MyPC8MyBrain said:

you've taken the devils advocate angle more than once now,
make me think you're a lawyer or a detective or something in those lines 😄 

 

I'm just another old programmer 😄  For some reason, I think there's a lot of us here.  I'm happy you found a "Golden Sample" laptop though - you are very, very persistent to go through that process.  I'm more restrained in my hardware adventures - I really just have to know enough to avoid deleting everything and keep a few small servers running.  However, just because I haven't updated to this generation of Precisions doesn't mean I can't share endless, ill-researched opinions!  That's half the fun!

[TwistedAndy]

10 hours ago, MyPC8MyBrain said:

that will render the 7X70 platform and many other with lackluster cooling solution unusable and pointless.

 

Dell does not care about advanced customers and performance. The issue with AC/DC Load Line and poor performance out of the box (~13-15K CB R23) shows it clearly. Ultimately, Dell will lock the Precision 7670 and 7770 as well. It's a matter of time. Big tech companies like Dell, HP, Apple, and others are interested in selling devices and not getting them back. That's all.

 

As for this issue, it may be related to the new Intel microcode affecting Alder and Raptor Lake platforms. Dell does not care if the undervolting will stop working after the security update. Yes, there will be another dozen of people complaining on forums and Reddit, which can be ignored one more time. But if there will be some unpatched vulnerabilities, their business customers may be very confused.

 

Unfortunately, the performance and an option to tune something is not always the main factor why companies and regular customers make a decision which device to purchase.

 

Luckily, there are some other vendors and devices with less compromises in terms of performance. For example, XMG posts really good guides how to undervolt their devices and even cover that under some kind of warranty.

 

Probably, they care about their laptops more than some companies, which do not have enough resources to specify AC/DC Load Line values properly in their $5K devices.

[MyPC8MyBrain]

  

9 hours ago, alittleteapot said:

I think there's a lot of us here.

great minds think alike 😉

 

4 hours ago, TwistedAndy said:

Dell does not care about advanced customers and performance.

I will miss the days when Dell was synonymous with quality and Precision meant uncompromised performance.

[TwistedAndy]

I've found a post from HP confirming that undervolting is blocked in the new Intel's microcode update for Alder Lake and Raptor Lake. I have described everything here.

 

It affects not only mobile HK and HX CPUs, but the unlocked desktop (K and KS) processors as well.

[MyPC8MyBrain]

before everyone panics... this is a factoring limitation when Microsoft Virtualization-Based Security (VBS) feature is enabled (this feature can be disabled manually) some applications might not work properly ( @Aaron44126 the article i read mentions some features will not work properly when this is enabled one of these is "Manual fan speed control might not work."),

 

i think this issues been addressed for us already and why we cannot run virtualization with undervolting atm,

 

Quote

Background: Microsoft Virtualization-based Security, or VBS, uses hardware virtualization features to create a secure environment which can host a number of security features. One area of vital system resources that VBS must protect from malicious use is processor model-specific registers, or MSRs. In order to provide a robust security platform, MSRs must be protected from misuse from malicious kernel mode code. To enforce this, VBS monitors/controls access to all MSRs and only allow kernel mode code to access MSRs. But MSR access control will cause Intel Extreme Tuning Utility (XTU) not work since it cannot access MSR to set/get processor parameter.

 

Quote

Operating Systems: Microsoft Windows 11 RESOLUTION
There is no single switch to turn off VBS. VBS must be turned off individually for each security application.

 

First, check if Virtualization-based Security is enabled by one of the Windows security features, if so, 
perform the appropriate method provided below to disable the option:

 

1. Click Start.
2. Click the Search field, and then type msinfo32.
3. Click Open.
4. On the System Information page, identify the Virtualization-Based Security Status for the impacted security features.
5. Follow the guidelines provided below to turn off/disable VBS for the impacted Windows Security features (if VBS is enabled):

 

Impacted Windows Security features and methods to disable VBS:
To disable Hypervisor-protected code integrity (HVCI):
a. Click Start > Settings.
b. Click Privacy & Security > Windows Security > Device security.
c. Locate Core Isolation, and then click Core isolation details.
d. Switch the Memory Integrity option to Off.
e. Close Windows.

 

To disable Microsoft Defender Application Guard, Virtual Machine Platform, and Windows Hypervisor Platform:
a. Open the Control Panel.
b. Click Programs and Features.
c. Click Turn Windows features on or off in the left pane.
Windows features list opens.
d. Locate and uncheck Microsoft Defender Application Guard, Virtual Machine Platform, and Windows Hypervisor Platform.
e. Click OK.
f. Close the Control Panel.

 

To disable Windows Credential Guard (on an IT managed network):
To disable Windows Defender Credential Guard, you can use the following set of procedures or the Device Guard and Credential Guard hardware readiness tool. 
If Credential Guard was enabled with UEFI Lock, then you must use the following procedure as the settings are persistent in EFI (firmware) variables 
and it will require physical presence at the computer to press a function key to accept the changes being made. 

 

If Credential Guard was enabled without UEFI Lock, it can be turned off by using Group Policy.
1. If Group Policy is used, disable the Group Policy setting you used to enable Windows Defender Credential Guard 
( Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > System > Device Guard > Turn on Virtualization Based Security).
2. Navigate to the registry key and delete the following registry settings:
HKEY _LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\LsaCfgFlags
HKEY _LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\DeviceGuard\LsaCfgFlags
3. If you also wish to disable Virtualization-Based Security, delete the following registry settings:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\DeviceGuard\EnableVirtualizationBasedSecurity
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\DeviceGuard\RequirePlatformSecurityFeatures
IMPORTANT: If you do not delete all required registry settings the computer might enter BitLocker Recovery. If you manually delete these registry settings, ensure you delete them all.
4. Delete the Windows Defender Credential Guard EFI variables by using bcdedit. Type the following commands from an elevated Command Prompt:
mountvol X: /s
copy %WINDIR%\System32\SecConfig.efi X:\EFI\Microsoft\Boot\SecConfig.efi /Y
bcdedit /create {0cb3b571-2f2e-4343-a879-d86a476d7215} /d "DebugTool" /application osloader
bcdedit /set {0cb3b571-2f2e-4343-a879-d86a476d7215} path "\EFI\Microsoft\Boot\SecConfig.efi"
bcdedit {bootmgr} bootsequence {0cb3b571-2f2e-4343-a879-d86a476d7215}
bcdedit /set {bootmgr} {0cb3b571-2f2e-4343-a879-d86a476d7215} loadoptions DISABLE-LSA-ISO
bcdedit /set {0cb3b571-2f2e-4343-a879-d86a476d7215} Device partition=X:
mountvol X: /d
5. Restart the computer.

 

[Aaron44126]

3 minutes ago, MyPC8MyBrain said:

before everyone panics... this is a factoring limitation when Microsoft Virtualization-Based Security (VBS) feature is enabled some applications might not work properly ( @Aaron44126 the article i read mentions some features will not work properly when this is enabled one of these is "Manual fan speed control might not work.")

 

Eh.

1. I have VBS disabled.  I have tried it and it causes performance issues for me.  Microsoft themselves even recommends disabling it for best gaming performance.

2. The guy in the Reddit thread I linked above reports undervolting working with his XPS with BIOS 1.11.x, broken after the BIOS Update to 1.12.x, and restored after rolling back to BIOS 1.11.x.  (I might have the version numbers wrong.)  It seems clearly tied to the BIOS (+ microcode) version and not the OS configuration.  ...Also, Dell has since released another newer BIOS version for that XPS system that does not allow a BIOS downgrade to a version that allows undervolting.

[PHVM_BR]

Alienware X17 R2 with i9-12900HK is locked to undervolt since BIOS update 1.9.1, but it is still possible to go back to BIOS 1.8.2 and have undervolt....

[craigeryjohn]

Is it possible to add power button fingerprint reader? I snagged a screaming deal on this 7760 7670 🤦‍♂️on eBay. 4k oled w/ 64GB RAM i7, A2000 w/ 8gb...but it's missing a fingerprint reader. The windows hello facial recognition is ridiculously slow. Any idea if it's possible to swap the power button with a fingerprint reader button?

Also, I've been reading these forums but apparently too late to stop my bios updates. I'm on 1.8, so is it now too late to make the undervolt and AC/DC load line changes to improve performance? It can get pretty sluggish/stuttery at times.

 

And finally, USB C charging seems finicky. I know it wasn't advertised, but it DOES work...just not all the time. I can't seem to figure out what causes the laptop to decide whether it will charge over USB C or not.

Edited January 18, 2023 by craigeryjohn
wrong model!

[Aaron44126]

5 minutes ago, craigeryjohn said:

Is it possible...

 

Fingerprint reader — Definitely possible, but I have no idea what parts you'd need.  Obviously it serves two purposes (fingerprint scanning and power button) so there is probably two cables running off of it.  It's probably part of the palmrest, as far as Dell's part system is concerned.  .......You can get tiny USB fingerprint readers that can just plug into the side of the system and work with Windows Hello, that could be an OK workaround.

 

BIOS — 1.8 is a great one to be on, they have made the loadline fix in this version (you don't have to do it yourself), and you can still use undervolting.  We are concerned about the end of undervolting but Dell hasn't pushed out a BIOS version for this system yet that kills it.  We have seen undervolting killed in other models (from Dell & others) so it's probably a matter of time.

 

[Edit]

Noticed that you said you bought a Precision 7760.  Maybe you meant 7670?  This is the Precision 7670 + 7770 thread, but we do have a separate Precision 7760 thread.

[craigeryjohn]

14 minutes ago, Aaron44126 said:

 

[Edit]

Noticed that you said you bought a Precision 7760.  Maybe you meant 7670?  This is the Precision 7670 + 7770 thread, but we do have a separate Precision 7760 thread.

Yes, my bad! 7670 here. Thanks for the quick reply and info. I think the USB reader might be the best route, I just shudder at the thought of something sticking out the side all the time haha.

[MyPC8MyBrain]

@craigeryjohn i thought you will need to replace the entire keyboard,
looks like the power button is not part of the main keyboard layout, should be fairly easy to swap with fingerprint power button (part number X029X)

 

here is a closeup of the part sku (maybe you could scan the barcode to find the exact part number)

[Aaron44126]

I wonder how easy that would be to access. Replacing the keyboard itself requires basically taking the system entirely apart, motherboard and everything, to replace it from the bottom.

[developer]

34 minutes ago, Aaron44126 said:

I wonder how easy that would be to access. Replacing the keyboard itself requires basically taking the system entirely apart, motherboard and everything, to replace it from the bottom.

 

if same like previous gen, after disassemble battery, 3 cords detach and front side you can pull the keyboard. Of course keyboard's screws should be taken off.

[Aaron44126]

46 minutes ago, developer said:

if same like previous gen, after disassemble battery, 3 cords detach and front side you can pull the keyboard. Of course keyboard's screws should be taken off.

 

It's not the same as prior generations.  In Precision 7X60 and earlier, you can easily pull out the keyboard trim separately from the palmrest so the keyboard is easy to access.  (You just have to disconnect cables from the bottom, like you say.)  In Precision 7X70, there is no separate keyboard trim.  The chiclet keyboard "lattice" is essentially part of the entire palmrest.  The keyboard can only come out from the bottom, and that means getting the heatsink, motherboard, and inner frame out of the way.  (This is similar to their XPS-style systems which have been like this for many years.)  You also can't pop the palmrest off separately as you could in some prior systems.

 

I've already whined about this a few times.  It's a major step backwards in serviceability — the keyboard is a part that should be easily replaceable.  I think I ended up replacing the keyboard in three different older Precision systems that I have used for one reason or another.  It was a job that could be done in just a few minutes.  I hope the Precision 7770 keyboard holds up, I'm not looking forward to the day that I might want to replace that.

 

There might be a slightly easier way to get to just the power button.  I haven't looked.

[MyPC8MyBrain]

6 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

I wonder how easy that would be to access.

seems relatively easy to access, its located right under the fans,
and above a small removable port module board on the right side,

 

[Aaron44126]

3 hours ago, MyPC8MyBrain said:

seems relatively easy to access, its located right under the fans,
and above a small removable port module board on the right side

 

And then I guess the next question is, will it work if you don't have a SmartCard reader?  @craigeryjohn, does your system have a SmartCard reader?  (It's a slot on the left side and it is labeled "SC" at the front.)

 

On Dell's web site you cannot configure the fingerprint reader without a SmartCard reader.  The reason is that the SmartCard reader really gets you Dell's "Control Vault" security solution which also runs the fingerprint reader.  It used to be in older systems that the fingerprint reader actually plugged into the same little board that the SmartCard reader plugs into but I'm not sure if that is still the same since they integrated it into the power button.

 

[Edit]

Just checked @MyPC8MyBrain's eBay link; $100 for one of these things?  Holy cow.  You can get a tiny USB one for like $20.

[MyPC8MyBrain]

32 minutes ago, Aaron44126 said:

Just checked eBay link

indeed i was surprised too, the sku seem to be used across few models,

a deeper search on eBay will yield half what you initially found (still outrageous imho),

 

32 minutes ago, Aaron44126 said:

will it work if you don't have a SmartCard reader?

SC has its own dedicated ribbon connected to a separate logic board off the mainboard,

what you are looking in the image is below the battery and the plastic cradle that holds the M.2 bays, the two elements appear to be independent (main board is out in the image below, keyboard is still in place),
 

[Aaron44126]

14 minutes ago, MyPC8MyBrain said:

the two elements appear to be independent

 

They're not independent in the system, both the SmartCard reader and fingerprint reader are connected to the same "USB composite device" — whatever that is, I am wondering if it is missing if you don't get the system with a SmartCard reader (and then the fingerprint reader would not be properly detected by the OS, even if there is technically a place to plug it in).

 

[MyPC8MyBrain]

i opted to not include fingerprint for my system configuration, i did get the Smart Card Reader option,

i think the two components are just sharing the lane,

 

Device by type view

 

device by connection view

 

 

 

[Aaron44126]

The "USB composite device" is a real physical device that offers multiple devices/services over a single USB connection.  It could be a standalone device or it could just be a chip on the motherboard that just talks "USB" to the rest of the system.  The fingerprint reader seems to be wired up to go through it.

 

It might be this thing right here.  ->

 

My supposition is that it might not be included if you don't order the SmartCard reader.  This would explain why Dell blocks configurations with the fingerprint reader but no SmartCard reader.  If that is the case, I doubt that the fingerprint reader would work.

 

The only way to find out is for someone to try it, really...

[MyPC8MyBrain]

3 hours ago, Aaron44126 said:

My supposition is that it might not be included if you don't order the SmartCard reader

plausible, i cant recall if something else is interacting with that logic board beside the SC,

they are each connected independently to the main board with different ribbon,

the blue tab right above your arrow is the ribbon link to the main board when its in place,

 

in the 7670 the fingerprint ribbon is actually routed differently from the 7770 (red poly),
but still connect to the board through a separate interface (the 7770 is similar only the tab is more to the left)

the yellow denote where the SC is interfacing with main board physically, id think that logically they should be able to operate as individual components regardless of lane sharing driver designation (ControlVault is just a software component),

 

 

Edit:

I think the price in difference is after all justified, there are 3 or 4 different fingerprint models with and without FIPS encryption and other security elements involved in hardening the system and data it holds when needed, the non-FIPS costs $36 while the full FIPS one is at $136 even on Dells site,

[MyPC8MyBrain]

@Aaron44126

there's a connector on the power module that on my system connects to nothing (top left yellow area),

on the SC logic board there's also an empty port connected to nothing on my system (bottom center'ish yellow area),

if you look closely there are trace marking on the back of the keyboard, and chassis traces around the bottom area where the SC logic board open port is, i think there is another ribbon bridging between the two for full fingerprint functionality with ControlVault keys, if you have both option on your system when you're back in there i think you should be able to spot if there a ribbon up there,

 

 

edit:

found the 7770 service manual here,
scanned through it, they elaborate on every part accept for that little logic board which seem to be part of the palm rest itself (as in glued in place, see page 87), the traces I noticed are for the gps antenna cables, also in none of the images in the entire service manual nothing is connected to that open port on the middle logic board where SC connects or to the open port on the power button module,

[win32asmguy]

I wonder if these will end up being compatible with the 7670 / 7770 using the SODIMM interposer, it could be a cheaper way to get to 96GB capacity.

 

https://wccftech.com/crucial-now-has-24-gb-48-gb-ddr5-memory-options-for-desktop-laptop-pcs/amp/

[MyPC8MyBrain]

is it crucial that we have these for those who cant afford it?
or is it so crucial can use the difference to make more modules they can sell?