Mr. Fox

Correct. You're exactly right. Everything matters. Fit of the cold plate, design of the cold plate, the TIM, water moving through the jet plate fast enough, but not too fast, or with excessive turbulence, and the ability of the radiator to pull the water temperature down as close to ambient as possible. If you get one of those things right and miss the mark elsewhere, results will be diminished compared to what they would be if everything worked together for an optimal outcome. And, if everything works as optimally as possible then you're still limited by ambient temperatures. It is all very simple to understand, and the science is very simple, but the execution sometimes isn't great. If you're running your PC in a hot environment, even with a perfect cooling system, you're going to have a sucky experience in terms of thermals. It is easy to get sidetracked by some specs as well. We would all choose higher speed when making a selection. But, pump speed doesn't actually guarantee flow rate just as fan speed doesn't guarantee CFM or static pressure. The destination matters more than the journey and the outcome more than process.

I think you might be jumping to conclusions and assuming too much. That's a common problem with readers of product reviews and we are all guilty of it to some degree, myself included. The testing isn't complicated and the more complicated you make it the less accurate the results will be, and the easier it will be to confuse yourself and anyone reading the review. It's actually very simple. The water can never be colder than the ambient temperature unless you use an artificial means like a water cooler. If the transfer of heat from the CPU to the water is roughly equal and the water carries the heat away at an equal rate then you're going to see the same result as long as the coolant temperatures are equal. It's that simple. Pump speed and flow rate matter, but they only need to be adequate to accomplish the purpose of carrying the heat away in the water. At a certain point increasing either one does nothing to change the outcome. I think it's even possible that increasing the flow rate too much might even slightly hinder the results, but certainly won't help if the flow rate is enough to remove the heat from the CPU cold plate at the same rate. The outcome is changed by how effectively the heat exchanger (radiator) removes the heat from the water to equalize it with the ambient temperature. It's also possible for the flow rate to be so high that the water doesn't remain in the radiator long enough to be cooled as effectively. When everything is working efficiently and effectively the difference in temperature of the CPU resides largely in the temperature of the water. Being bigger and more expensive and more complex doesn't help if the water is not cooler. What my testing didn't show, and did not need to show, is how much faster the water temperature would increase in an AIO with such a tiny amount of water in it. That's why my stress test was limited to 5 minutes. Had I run it for 15 to 30 minutes the scales probably would have been heavily tilted in favor of the custom loop that holds probably 10 times as much water and has roughly 300% more heat dissipating surface area to prevent the water from heating up. The intent of the review was to show the function and performance of the AIO, not highlight how an AIO is inferior to a large custom loop with much higher coolant capacity and flow rate. That's also why I tested it on the open bench and not inside of an enclosed case. Testing it on the open bench helps normalized the results. Testing inside of a closed case would produce more erroneous results that would vary widely from one system to the next depending upon the case. The open bench tests the cooler, not the case. This is a common and accepted testing methodology among people doing product reviews. You don't want something like a case being a wild card to skew results. The only way testing inside of a case would be reliable is if everyone purchasing the product uses the same case and the same fans, runs the fans at the same speed, in the same environment. The other element that your statement doesn't take into account is that if you're only going to cool a CPU and you have a really nice, cool working environment with pleasant ambient temperatures a good AIO that can minimize or prevent the water from growing warmer during use then it's probably enough to get by. If you're going to add a GPU and/or memory into the loop the AIO is not even an option.

New single from Dokken... While I am not a big fan of Country Music, the message is right and there's no way I can't support such righteous lyrics. The fact that the woke left is having an emotional breakdown over it is just icing on the cake. I hope he wins the lawsuit he started. Pretty cool song.

That's good. Glad they did that. As long as everything remains consistent in the testing, the other conditions are not that important if the intent is to compare them to one another. I took a similar approach to try to replicate the miserable state of tuning that would be likely on the average gamer noob setup. My office is seldom that cool. I wish I could keep it at 23°C or lower, but it is nearly impossible to get it that cool in the summer months. Usually 25-26°C (78-80°F) is about is cool as I can get it with the AC set to 69-70°F. I need to do something like add a booster fan in my central AC duct or something because the rest of the house stays nice and cool. Even in the dead of winter it is difficult to get it down to 69-70°F (20-21°C). I think the main take-away from my cooler testing was confirmation of what all of us already knew. If you're using ambient cooling for air or water, you will never be able to be cooler than the environment, even with a zero degree delta. The fact that the EK AIO and my custom loop had nearly identical temperatures was a direct reflection of that law of physics.

https://hwbot.org/submission/5329954_ | https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/98374064 Same run above GPU score only: https://hwbot.org/submission/5329955_ https://hwbot.org/submission/5329959_ | https://www.3dmark.com/spy/40812238 https://hwbot.org/submission/5329976_ | https://valid.x86.fr/6fjmjp CPU-Z bench single: 1025.3 | 18714.8 That's all for today. My ambient temperatures have increased and now the chiller can't get as cold as it was when I started. GPU boost won't go high enough.

I was editing my post when my power went out because I tripped the circuit breaker while benching. I was going to change it to ask if they controlled the ambient temperatures in comparing the AIO results. If they did not disclose that and take the steps necessary to do that then the results may not be accurate for the comparison between any of them. Hopefully they did. I have not looked at the review. Yeah that's extremely retarded about the caps around the perimeter of the IHS. I guess I would have to break out my soldering station to take the caps out of the way to do the delid and then solder them back again. I'm sure that someone like Roman will figure a way to do it because they did the same idiotic moron thing on the latest AMD processors with caps all around the perimeter. Where there's a will there's a way, but it's still idiotic that Intel or AMD would build a processor that way. Totally sucks. I'm probably not going to upgrade anything for a long time so they'll have time to figure that out before I do, if I ever do. The way things are trending I can see myself losing interest in the hobby, and especially losing interest in wasting so much money on overpriced garbage.

Thank you, brother. The question I would have is were the ambient temperatures at least 5°C lower than mine? I would guess my ambient temperature was at least 5°C higher. If that's true, maybe it's not better. did they disclose the ambient temperatures when testing each AIO and run the comparison with each system in the same operating conditions? If they did not then the results may not be accurate. If they did and did not disclose it, they should so that question does not go unanswered. I haven't read the review(s).

The mirrored video image is a little bit annoying, but otherwise this is pretty crazy stuff. Incredible that it actually worked. Brother @ryanI bet you could get back into desktops without a huge investment doing it this way.

Wow. Just. Wow. I had not heard about this until just now. This is totally Satanic crap. I don't want to stop using Chrome, but this makes me want to see very, very horrible bad things happen to the bastards at Google. This wicked Nazi dictator behavior is inexcusable and it is deserving of death for the company.

Sometimes Bill's videos can be too painful and boring to watch from end to end. The guy is super smart, but there is often too much rambling about stuff I don't care about. The problem is if you skip through it and don't pay close attention you can miss something really important because he sprinkles valuable little nuggets here and there among the ramblings. So, it is best to endure the rambling if you want to extract useful information. I've gotten a lot of useful information from his videos, but I don't watch them if my time is limited or my attention is divided. I do enjoy his smugness and sarcasm, and I think I would get along with him well at a personal level. I suspect that he has less experience with AMD memory overclocking. Most of his videos relates to GPUs and Intel-powered systems. The concepts are similar but the difference in working values and settings are often misleading or not understood. Some settings on one platform do not exist on the other, or they are obscured by different terminology and naming conventions. Beyond benchmark scores it can be difficult to compare Intel and AMD overclocking. What works for one often will not work for the other. At the end of the day, the only things that matters are the experience and the benchmark scores. If you're not happy with both, or frustrated with the experience, then you're on the wrong path and need to do something else.

It's all good brother @jaybee83. Kind of funny really when you think about it because I have played games more on the 3060 TI and the 6900XT that replaced it than I have with my incredibly more expensive, powerful and capable 4090. Couldn't tell you why since the systems are within an arm's length of one another. When I'm using the benching rig it's generally at a time that my focus is on benching, but otherwise I have no explanation for why it has worked out that way. Just random. But what it does show is how capable at gaming both of the inferior GPUs actually are. I wouldn't have gamed on them if they did not perform admirably.

Here it is, bro. 👍

Sorry if I wasn't clear by what I said. I never mentioned gaming. "Outperform" doesn't mean "gaming" to me. "Gaming" means gaming, and it's something I seldom do. Overclocked CPU benching and CPU-intensive tasks, where core count and clock speed does matter, is what I meant about outperforming. And, you are correct that the benefit of more cache when more cache is helpful is brand agnostic. Because I am not a "gamer" per se, I generally do not think in terms of the effect on PC gaming. Even so, what matters to me most generally (except for the above) benefits gaming as well despite the fact that it probably wasn't contemplated in my thought process.

That will be a super nice upgrade to the 2700X. The 10850K should outperform it having more cores/threads, higher stock turbo clock and great overclocking capabilities, but it would be interesting to see your comparison.

It booted. Must be good to go.

Well, 87.1 ns is the crap you can expect from using an XMP profile, so I guess we know where his weakness is when it comes to tuning. Thanks. So, now we have grandsons that are named Magnus, Sigurd and Bjorn. That means they can't stop until they give us an Ivar, Hvitserk and Ubbe. (I'm not sure those last two names aren't too weird for the 21st Century. But, maybe they aren't strange in another part of the world. Not sure.) https://screenrant.com/vikings-sons-of-ragnar-power-ranked/#magnus

Off topic. Mrs. Fox and I have our tenth grandchild (sixth grandson), born this afternoon. I think Brother @Papusanis going to like the Viking names. Magnus Olave Fox. Weighing 7 lbs 4 oz and 20 in tall. I had to Google the names to get the meaning for Magnus and Olave.

Sometimes the simplest solution is to do something else rather than fix someone else's messes. One of the reasons I don't waste my time and money on turdbooks. There is no real fix for poor QC. Lipstick on a pig. While I agree, I'd probably spend $400, $500 or $600 on one of those crappy GeFarts turd GPUs before I would spend a similar amount on a Radeon card. I am not saying that to be offensive to anyone that likes them. I just don't really like the brand. Too many compromises. But, that doesn't mean I think the 4060, 4060 Ti or 4070 GPUs are any good either. Lesser of two evils. At the end of the day, we are in a scenario of being flooded with garbage and having somewhere between zero and one or two good options available to choose from, and the one or two good options are grossly overpriced (a poor value) and still far from resembling an effort to achieve excellence. Intel is dishonest NVIDIA is wicked AMD is stupid Micro$lop is all of the above, and ironically; they are the tail that is wagging the dog The bad options are also overpriced, but within the means (reach) of the victims targeted at their respective price points. There is an option for being screwed at every wallet size, but no great options at any price point.

Amen to that. Since he is a self-declared expert at just about everything, he might have it installed. People that make such claims are usually numbered among the least intelligent or the most lacking in common sense.

Enabling this crap on my Apex causes memory overclock instability and high latency. In some cases running an AIDA64 memory and cache benchmark will cause a reboot with it enabled. I don't need to worry about disabling it on the Dark mobo because it doesn't have this worthless garbage.

Jufes the Dufes, LOL. Always lots of drama, even when the message is right. On the topic of overpriced GPUs, AI disinformation, and all of the other goof-ball nonsense, it wouldn't surprise me if some of what we are seeing is collusion and some kind of nefarious underlying agenda to "fundamentally transform" (Obama-speak for deliberately screwing up and perma-breaking) gaming so that all gaming is done on a controlled device, with controlled results and price controls. They've already got all of the console jockeys under their thumb. Maybe they think it is time for PC gamers to be subdued into the life of a zombie muppet just like the console sheeple. They can't have us clinging to GPUs, guns or religion. After all, if you have assembled a gaming PC, "you didn't build that." Someone else made it happen.

I think we (several of us) got ours at a good time. Prices were too high, but if they go higher that will prove to be true. It is really sad days for PC enthusiasts. Maybe now is the time we should find something else to do with our time and money.

The change was pointless. It was totally unnecessary. My shunt-modded 2080 Ti FTW3 and 3090 KPE both pulled way more power than the 4090 and they were absolutely fine/flawless with three 8-pin connectors. It was a really scummy change to make. I guess they wanted to look smart and be special, but it only made them look extra stupid.