Mr. Fox

Almost anything you buy now is going to be hobbled and castrated. If I were going to buy a brand new GPU right now and my budget was $1200 or less it would be only 4080S or save $900 for later and go with an A770. I would not buy anything from AMD or accept anything less than a 4080S from NVIDIA. If you want something fun to play with, the A770 core overclocks better than the core overclocking on anything sold by AMD or NVIDIA. As long as you don't need the horsepower of a 4080S or 4090 it's the best bang for the buck. The memory does not overclock (no way to adjust it) but the stock memory clock on my A770 is within 150-200 MHz of the max stable overclock that my 6900 XT was capable of handling and it doesn't drop clocks under stress like the 6900 XT did. I would take that budget 2-DIMM MSI mobo over any 4-DIMM mobo without even pausing for a moment to think about it. 4-DIMM motherboard are a waste of money for overclocking or gaming. Not to mention that they all suck at memory overclocking.

^^^ A year ago... ^^^ Now...

Wait. Spend the $200 for the better GPU. My 2¢.

It fails against an MSI Z790i motherboard that clocks the RAM at 8000 because it has 2 DIMM slots. Yes, that's right.... a $300 MSI mini-ITX that kicks the grossly overpriced $700 ROG turd's digital butt. There was exactly such a company. Until about a year ago. They made the world's best motherboards and GPUs. Now they only make stupid crap like power supplies, mice, keyboards and video capture junk. Gee... thanks, NVIDIA.

It's both sides being stupid. With ASUS it is the combination of being dishonest and stupid. They do something right once in a while but screw things up just as often, if not more often. For every good product they produce, there are at least a dozen products that are pieces of crap. Their successes are inconsistent and unpredictable.

Having done this for many years I do not recall having ever perma-bricked a GPU (laptop or desktop) flashing the vBIOS. Probably have done this more than 1,000 times without incident. Yes, it can happen if you are careless, but even if it does you can easily fix it if you know how. The brick is not permanent. You can blind flash if there is no display output. You can use a manual SPI flash programmer in the worst case scenario of a hard-brick. Inconvenient but not irreversible. You can save the vBIOS using GPU-Z or NVFLASH. I prefer using NVFLASH. nvflash64.exe -b filename.rom This will save the firmware dump in the folder where nvflash resides using the name you provide in the command syntax. Although rare, I have had motherboard BIOS updates using an "official" firmware released and recommended by the OEM go south a couple of times. Compared to 0% for GPUs, flashing a GPU is much safer. Also, if you identify an error flashing a GPU, if you keep the system running and reflash to original firmware without shutting down you're generally good to go because the new firmware (or corrupted flash) doesn't take effect until you reboot. When working with SVL7 and Prema on firmware mods there were times when I flashed the same GPU more than 100 times until the mod got dialed in where we wanted it. With modern GPUs it is not possible to flash unsigned firmware using NVFLASH, and if you force flash it using an SPI programmer sometimes it will not function correctly, depending on what was modified. As long as you take a dump of the original vBIOS chip, the fix is generally as simple as flashing it back. I've never perma-bricked a GPU using an SPI programmer. You can also use an SPI flash programmer to fix a motherboard flash that went wrong. This is generally only necessary with a GPU when you are experimenting with mods. Never had any need for it cross-flashing official signed firmware from a different GPU in the same model line with a higher power limit. Edit: One advantage to having a dual (or triple) BIOS or vBIOS is if something does somehow go wrong you can slide the switch to the other position, power up and once in Windows, slide the switch back to the other position that you screwed things up and flash it. This will work with all GPUs and all motherboards that have a legitimate hardware toggle switch. Sadly, some of the most expensive enthusiast motherboards (including the Apex and higher ROG mobos) DO NOT have the right kind of BIOS switching features on the motherboard and that tremendous benefit is lost. You can't switch to the other firmware position after the motherboard is powered on, which is absolutely absurd, sinful and deplorable on the part of the psychotic control freak manufacturers. Never buy an expensive GPU that doesn't offer a dual vBIOS. Not very smart on the part of the manufacturer or the consumer. There is no excuse for it to be made that way unless it is a cheap low-end piece of garbage. Certainly inexcusable and unforgivable on an FE card.

Why not just buy a 256GB NVMe and install anything you want? Linux is free and a 256GB internal drive should be, too. I'd give you one for free, but the postage would cost more than the value of the drive. Seriously though... Super easy, you can shrink your Windows partition and install Linux in the free space on the same drive. There is no need for the additional drive if you are just wanting to kick the tires.

I don't think it would be of any use to me since I do not have that GPU and have no plans to own one. Rhetorical question, but isn't it getting a bit tiresome for us to have to burn calories on stupid driver and firmware workarounds to be able to use our hardware the way WE want to use it? I know I am growing weary of the nonstop stupidity and nonsense, and jumping through hoops because of their idiotic castration of hardware. It's too bad we don't get the same level of control over GPUs that we do over CPUs. We SHOULD, and we would if we got what we paid for.

Why is the driver info redacted? Is it a secret for some reason? 🤣

It seems like everything relating to PC tech is just getting dumbed down now. It's both pathetic and annoying. I can hardly wait to see what kind of life-altering decisions the pea-brained goombahs at the top of the technology food chain are going to delegate to AI.

Don't the FE GPUs have only one vBIOS? I've always thought they kind of suck overall for a couple of reasons, like that one and having a complicated disassembly process and crappy thermal solution. I don't think that this is a curable problem unless you just go cold turkey and lock yourself in a closet with no internet access or awareness of the world around you. It's pretty messed up and seems like we like having the sickness too much to want to be right again.

That brings back some good memories of when my boys were in that age range and I was teaching them the ropes on PC stuff. Moments like this are priceless. They'll last a lifetime. That looks like a pretty unique aesthetic on the GPU, especially the backplate. I cannot tell exactly how it is made from your photos, but the lip that drops down over the outside edge of the heat sink radiator toward the fan shroud should make for a very nicely rigid and strong design. Does it attach to the I/O bracket as well? (That would dramatically reduce or eliminate GPU sag if it does.)

Misrepresentation and deception are where the problem resides. Whether you get something less than expected (like a Frankenstein GPU) or something that is broken or defective, either scenario is totally unacceptable.

Maybe so. If I continue on the path of frivolous management of resources that will probably be true. 🤣

Dad-gum. I am one place behind Gunslinger now with stock vBIOS and I haven't found the max OC yet for this Xtreme Waterforce GPU. Going to have to shunt mod this bad boy and use the 2000W Kingpin vBIOS on it. This blew away my prior 2080 Ti FTW3 shunt modded score. I also haven't reduced the core count in the BIOS for the Physics and combine scores yet. The way things are set up now it is super easy for me to switch the chiller from one system to the other with quick disconnect fittings. This might get interesting. Windows 7 will never be matched by another Micro$lop OS. https://hwbot.org/submission/5460849_ | https://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/16162166 Edit: OK, now I leapfrogged Gunslinger, LOL. https://hwbot.org/submission/5460910_ | https://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/16162200

@D2ultima CPU - better get it before it's gone. That's a golden sample Brother @electrosofthas up for sale. https://www.overclock.net/threads/sp115-13900ks-msi-z790i-edge-g-skill-8000-32gb-2x16gb.1809387/#post-29287900 Check out this big little case. If a person is going to do SFF, this is the way to go. 360 rad support and full size ATX PSU. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C5LK9L62?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

Well, temps are still nice with my 8600 profile even with the elevated voltage. IceMan Cooling did really great with the memory cooling kit. The water in the cooling system for the Apex is about 5°C colder than the water in the Apex Encore loop. (The Apex has a 5-gallon reservoir and the radiator is near an open window, and the radiator for the Encore is in a corner of the office.) And, the difference in temperature reflects that precisely. That being the case, I call it a draw... "Even Steven" comparing it to the Supercool memory cooling kit. @tps3443

Nice gain in RAM cooling on the Apex Encore... The IceMan direct touch RAM block seems to give about the same delta as the Supercool does. These suckers are super heavy. Heavier than the Supercool because the backplate is thicker. The black bezel on top that covers the screws is magnetized and also made of metal. If there is anything that I wish would be different is the use of Philips head screws to attach the block to the jackets. They are a bit soft. Stainless steel Allen or Torx would have been better. @tps3443

A free Bulldozer setup, eh. I did not know you were in the e-waste disposal business. So, you will be clicking the "start" button in Cinebench R23 before you go to bed and hope it is done in time for breakfast? Edit: here goes Mr. Pottymouth on an AMD rant, LOL. Such a dufus.

Stupidity knows no shame. NUC had a place. Perfect for basic web browsing and light productivity at $200 or less. A "gaming NUC" is an idiotic concept and destined for failure like the nitwits and losers that embrace the idea. Asus will always find a way to package grossly overpriced trash under a "gaming" label and use it to screw stupid adults and gullible children. That is who they are and how they roll. There is no bottom to their trash barrel, other than the bottom that deposits digital excrement like this. Some people would buy a bucket filled with dung if it had RGB. The world should always expect "great" things from the people who gave us COVID. A "gaming NUC" is a digital example of what can be accomplished through gain of function technology. Maybe Dr. Faucci was part of their development team.

I might take you up on that. Turning loose of hardware that I am not using is painful and I have kind of a stupid fear of not having spare parts available as backups. But, I need to learn to let things go. I sure do like how this 2080 Ti Waterforce GPU looks. It has a chunky and menacing look to it that makes me feel like smiling. I know it doesn't mean something works well just because it looks nice. In fact, we see too many examples of things that look very nice and do not work very well. But it's extra good when you can enjoy both.

It the fault of Brother @tps3443 but I've got another nicely binned 13900KS incoming.

It seems like I get better overall results using the Galax vBIOS. I'm not sure why. Maybe something with the I/O peculiarity with the ASUS GPU (extra HDMI port and I/O mapping quirks unique to ASUS). Just a guess. So, this finally arrived. Will see how it compares to the Supercool direct touch RAM blocks when I find the spare time to install them. So far I have been impressed with the IceMan direct die block and the IceMan Dual D5 pump housing I added to my 5-gallon chilled water tank. Seems like the IceMan stuff is very good quality. This will be installed on the RAM in the Apex Encore. The Supercool RAM blocks are on the RAM in the Apex. Both are clocked at 8600. The Apex has the more elaborate cooling system, so it will not be a precise comparison, but it will also show how it compares to the Byski RAM jackets and block current installed on the Apex Encore memory.

I didn't flash it. All I did was turn off the PC and move the slider switch to the stock vBIOS position and restarted. That is why I think it is simply a change made in firmware. I also do not think that it means the memory is defective, only that you set an overclock that was unstable and with the stupid ECC feature enabled it (hopefully) does nothing more that save the mapping in the firmware/NVRAM. Now, I don't know if reflashing the vBIOS will overwrite the IFR table to make it "clean" again. I don't see any reason that anyone would not to want it to do so. I would hope so, and I would view that as being no different than clearing the Windows Event log. No, I don't think so either. You'd see it near the SATA ports if it did The Z690 Dark has a U.2 port, but I never used it due to not having a U.2 drive to test it with. I am glad I saved the old 2080 Ti firmware. The 2kW XOC vBIOS still works fine. SMI CLI power limit command does not work with newer drivers. I had to downgrade the drivers to an older version.