electrosoft

Yeah I'm in the exploratory phase of ITX builds. Already did a Hyte Revolt 3 (which I detailed the issues to you before lol) and now I'm back to the re qualifying hardware phase with a few changes (6700xt -> 7900xtx, 6400 g.skill -> 8000 g.skill, EVGA/ID Cooling 280mm AIO -> EK Nucleus 240mm AIO). Maybe I'll take a crack at it, but I have found basic testing really rules out any problems for my use cases. You must be seriously relieved no one bought your old Apex Z790. You would have been stuck swapping boards and going through that whole song and dance for a board which really doesn't offer much more or different than the core Apex Z790.

MSI Z790i Edge is a 2 dimm ITX board rated for 8000+ 🙂 The sticks are 2x16GB Hynix 8000 G.Skill. I do have an older set of 2x32GB 6000 G.Skill A-die in my X670E dialed in at the norma 6000l sweet spot, but I do want to see how far they will go. I'm going to see how far I can boot / post those 8000 sticks in the Edge first then swap over the 6000 A die 2x32 GB and see where they cap out. I do plan on swapping in my Z790i + 7900xtx as my main rig and see how it fairs too just for fun before moving into ITX adventures 2.0.

Battle of the MSIs 🤣 MSI 7900xtx was an $826 dollar Amazon Warehouse open box so they are crazy hit or miss. Luckily this one was a really good hit. I wanted to go Asrock or Nitro but they are both outside the range of all realistic ITX cases which all seem to cap out at 330mm and the Nitro is basically a quad slot on top of it (3.5) and Asrock a full 3 slot. MSI is smidge under 3 slots and 325mm in length. So much quieter and cooler than the XFX 7900xtx w/ 55 max GPU and 75 Hot spot max and minimal coil whine with no harmonic fluctuations. I haven't looked at the Strix Z790i yet, but the fact no original box and the board was just floating around does not bode well. Quick look and I'm thinking some accessories are missing so we'll see. I've had a string of hits from Amazon Warehouse so I'm due a miss methinks. 🤔 MSI Z790i Edge + MSI 7900xtx Gaming vs MSI X670e + MSI Suprim Liquid X 4090 (Switch Joycons are my daughter's 🙂 ). Pure stock run no OCs on the CPU or GPU along with the 8000 sticks at XMP 8000 no tweakage/dial ins (yet). Temps are great on the AIO (72 tops again) and GPU (55 core / 75 Hotspot) with fans really not even hitting their stride.

With the MB refresh, we don't know how far 2 DIMMs will go in them but past experiences show it may be problematic. We'll need some guinea pigs, er, buyers to give them a whirl and see. If the Apex Encore is any indication, there is no sudden memory gains (or the IMCs / DIMMs are hitting a wall) so 4 dimm boards aren't suddenly going to become 8000+ dominant. So $2600 for the GPU and PSU with room to negotiate really isn't that bad actually especially for above average silicon and absolutely bonkers memory. Only downside is zero warranty. I'm surprised you didn't pick it up or work a trade for your 3090 with it.

Cheng responding to me asking about his HOF 4090 and he went into detail. Silicon clocks are really good, but the memory on his 4090 HOF card is bonkers benching at +2225. https://www.overclock.net/threads/z790-extreme-hof-4090-lab-plus-oc.1808371/#post-29256907 If money was no object, I'd pick it up because...well....why not? 😉

Similar type problem with my (well now my nephew's) Arc A380. Connected to a Viotek 22" 144hz display via HDMI and it would consistently black out / flicker / strobe when running anything that stressed the GPU. Same display worked fine swapping in the 6700xt and 3070. Testing the display on my main desktop and 4090 worked fine. Only the Arc A380 didn't like it regardless of HDMI cable. Same Arc A380 worked fine on the Dell 24" 240hz display I gave to my nephew along with my BenQ 32" 4k. It just did not like that particular display no matter what. DP worked fine on that display though.

Reinstalled the MSI Z790I w/ 13900ks and after reading a lot of reviews picked up an EK Nucleus 240 for the next ITX adventure to replace the EVGA 280 and ID Cooling 280: The EK Nucleus 240 is much better than the EVGA and ID Cooling and much quieter knocking off an additional 7c and 10c respectively. CB23 = 72c tops. I think it's time to replace the 360 in my desktop rig with an EK Nucleus or Galahad Trinity (they don't make the Trinity in a 240). What I like about the EK is it has no RGB and no software needed. Two leads: CPU fans and Pump, that's it. This is purposely capped at PL1 and PL2 253w and a -0.125 UV and nothing else on the MSI same as with the EVGA and ID Cooling. The MSI board tops out at 288w so you have to keep everything at or below that. This is pure stock for clocks and it runs circles around my buddy's 13900k and his is on water and pulls way more with higher temps to achieve a lower score. After, I popped in the G.Skill 8000 sticks in from @Raiderman and as expected they booted right up at 8000 XMP no problem on the MSI Z790I Edge. I expect no problems since my buddy's GEIL 8200 sticks booted right up XMP (which they wouldn't do on his Hero w/ 13900k). MSI rates the Z790i Edge at 8000+. In a few days my MSI 7900XTX and Asus Z790I Strix. I'll pop in the MSI 7900XTX in the MSI Z790I first to test it out without having to break down my Suprim in my main rig to see how it stacks up in WoW, FO76 and Starfield 10+ months removed since my adventures with the XFX 7900xtx which didn't go too well. Then I'll do it all over again with the Strix to compare.

That is sweet sweet high speed symmetrical beauty right there. Meanwhile in my neck of the woods, with T-Mobile actually doing damage to Xfinity and Xfinity having to compete, we're "blessed" with this for $55.99/mo: Mind you, this is actually a drastic improvement to costs where I live. Before T-Mobile made a dent with their Unlimited Internet, Xfinity tried to impose data caps AND charge $80-90 for this level of service and force you into bundles with their cable service and phone service and grouped channels. They are finally feeling the pain and having to compete. I'm saving ~$180-200/mo now versus my old plan and have completely cut the cord. The upload is terrible but I find the DL speed reduction from my previous 1.2gigabit not that noticeable except during massively large downloads and even then it is manageable.

8000 Sticks from @Raiderman all factory sealed and ready for some love are here safe and sound (thanks bro!) Ended up picking up an Asus Strix Z790I ITX motherboard from Amazon open box for $286 since Asus isn't refreshing their ITX boards. Looking forward to testing the MSI Z790I Edge against it both with the SP115 13900KS and the 8000 sticks seeing what and which gives up the ghost first. Decided to cover my eyes and ordered an open box MSI 7900XTX Gaming Trio for $827 to swap into my main rig to drive for a couple of weeks with the MSI x670e Carbon + 7800X3D (thus completing a full AMD MSI themed look). I know it won't touch my Suprim 4090 but if it's close enough I can envision selling my 4090 at cost to someone who wants decidedly above average silicon and memory and applying the $1000 difference elsewhere.... ....of course if the 7900xtx blows chunks then...well.....🤣 I was tempted to pick up a reference model from AMD due to its smaller size and USB-C out. They seem to be the only place to get the original AMD spec'd design now.

That would be a sweet pick up @Mr. Fox either that or see if @Papusan can facilitate a purchase from his neck of the woods for one. Speaking of which.... Congrats on the new gear! Can't wait to see it in action and hopefully some good silicon!.....minus those Crocs of course. 🤣 I still don't get them... The day Asus starts offering official "Asus ROG Crocs" is the day they're dead to me. 😁

Jufes and the Z790 Apex Encore....(also pushing Encore + 14900k pre-tuned bundles) Head to head vs the original Apex too down to box comparisons. The ram cooling fan is a nice addition and definitely dropped the temps. Better than my low brow slapping a fan on an angle and/or using electrical tape or zip ties when testing ram. 🤣 tl;dw Both are good, Encore gets a thumbs up.

I have been disappointed in every (and I do mean every) Gigabyte board I've used dating back to Z270 and AM4. I just won't entertain their motherboards in any capacity. Last outing with Gigabyte was a Aorus Pro AX Z590 board that was bungled....er I mean bundled with a Aorus Master 3070 during the cryptodemic in 2021. I figured, "I have it? Why not use it?" and it was garbage and couldn't touch my MSI Z590 or Asus Z590 boards in granular control and overclocking while binning 11900k's. Aesthetically, I like the look of it but that price point is crazy but it is available in the US for $999.99 I used to set my price point for a motherboard at $300 no matter what but market forces pushed that to $400 and I only did that begrudgingly. That Aorus Master 3070 though was a very solid card. I wouldn't be adverse to picking up another Gigabyte GPU in the future.

He will definitely have the VRAM for that resolution and proper support with an AMD card. If he does game, depending on the title, he can just dial back the eye candy to settle into an acceptable sweet spot performance:visuals ratio. If he goes Asrock Taichi 7900xtx, he can do the whole Asrock themed build with that Asrock B650E Taichi Lite. It's a bit more pricier than the budget boards but falls into a nice range and still ~$200 less than the full blown X670E Taichi and ~$90 cheaper than the normal B650E Taichi. 7900xtx is no slouch of a card. It is just that the 4090 is a monster even in the face of Nvidia's other 4000 series offerings. I'll be curious to see what his final selections yield and end game build out.

Does he have a budget or is price unlimited? Bang for Buck all AMD rig: MSI B650 Gaming ($180) or (MSI X670-P Pro $200 at MC) G.Skill Flare X5 2x16GB 6000 EXPO Certified ($100) ($98 MC) 7800X3D ($369) ($350 MC) Sapphire 7900XTX Nitro+ ($1030) ($1060 MC) Asrock Taichi 7900xtx ($1060) (both) ~1679+tax Newegg or ~$1708+Tax MC w/ Sapphire I see some killer open box items at your Dallas MC you could target too. If he has no budget, you can up the motherboard depending on what else he needs along with the memory, but the above system is really going to give you the bulk of performance you need and leave room for a quality 1000w+ PSU, good storage and a case of his choice especially in light of not being an overclocker/tweaker and looking for a good turn key system. His case selection will dictate his cooling. I use an older EVGA 360 CLC w/ AM4 fitting and it works fantastic so he can get away with a wide swath of coolers. Beware, MC may not be an Asrock GPU authorized seller so they may reject a warranty claim. Newegg is authorized. Amazon isn't authorized. I found out when I picked up an Asrock GPU back in March and there was no free game code at the time. Some calls, Q&A and come to find out Amazon isn't an official reseller even if "sold and shipped from Amazon," hence no game code. I returned the GPU sealed.

Died how? What are the specs? You might be able to get back a nice bit of change parting it out.

Looking forward to your head to head comparison between the Apex and Apex 2.0. 🙂

Nvidia being Nvidia along with having the dominant hardware overall. The 4090 is just in a class of its own. Ditto, I'm glad I picked up my 4090 back in January at stock pricing. I'm also glad my first CM cable was a dud due to the loose sense pin to avoid that whole fiasco. 🤣 I'll definitely be putting those incoming 8000 sticks through the wringer on both Z790 and X670e! With numerous BIOS updates since my initial testing I'll definitely retest 6000->6600 1:2 before diving into 1:3+ on AM5 with the new sticks. With so many bad 14900k samples out there I'm not even sure we will see a 14900KS. I still feel this smells of the 10900k where they had extracted everything they could from the architecture and there simply was no room for a KS variant. Over on OCN, you see some just returning their 14900k's because their 13900k or 13900ks are just as good and/or the 14900k they picked up is just a horrific sample that can't even hit stock properly on an AIO. You then even have average 14900k's that are worse than good binned 13900ks. Like I said before, lots of cross over with some 14900k's just being low binned duds that have problems even running at stock. I would sit back and wait and snag a good binned (or at least average) chip for the 14900k or prepare to play the lottery. If I had a good 13900k/ks I wouldn't even bother at all unless a super bin falls in your lap. I watched your video yesterday @Talon. That was some fantastic work bro and I agree with your write up. Hopefully Intel isn't pulling an Nvidia and is just starting from the top and it will eventually work on all 12th->14th gen CPUs.

I have zero problems not only initiating refunds/charge backs but also putting people and companies on blast when they don't do the right thing. When it drags on, I set a hard "I will initiate a charge back / refund if I don't receive my item(s) by X date," and when I don't I just go ahead and back up my threat. With that being said, we all run into hiccups as a buyer and seller. It happens. It's how you handle it that makes all the difference in the world. Hopefully he comes through.

Monster "In the wild" 14900k over on OCN from Amazon:

I would not be surprised if they use the traditional holiday buying season coupled with "external reasons" to continue to raise prices on the 4090. They have gone up everywhere on average and plenty of models continue to remain out of stock. As for the lesser models, in an ideal world to compete effectively, Nvidia would let the normal 4070, 4070ti and 4080 dry up over the holidays and replace them with the Super variants in January at the same or close enough price to increase their value to consumers especially with the 4080 which is the poorest seller out of the new line up and rightfully so. Swap in a Super at the same price with 20gb of memory would immediately create much better value especially against the 7900xtx which is routinely marked down. Knowing Nvidia though, they will simply offer both and the Super variants will be more...... "4080 Super at $1399....you're welcome! Happy $%*%)(* Holidays %(&%($_)_)$!!" "Greed.....is good"

Laptops are an odd duck when it comes with Vendor control and Nvidia control. Like I saw on my G18, not running Asus software resulted in a massive CPU and a lesser (but still annoying) GPU penalty. I would be curious to see the price paid for neutering some of the collection/control mechanisms from Nvidia (and potentially Lenovo) software. I know I will never buy another Asus laptop as long as AC cancerware has to be run to have it run properly. I would extend that denial to every other laptop maker too on the market. Imagine buying a motherboard that couldn't run full tilt unless you installed their bloatware and just didn't run naturally at full gait out of the box regardless of BIOS settings? I'll be curious to see the final comparison between your 13900k and 13900ks in its final delidded state.

Just like DDR4 and Samsung B-die was king but then DDR5 everyone wanted Hynix.....

If I was going with a custom loop (most likely 280+240) it would be in something like an NR200 or Dan C4. For a single rad custom loop, it would be an A4. Hyte would run into the same problems and it really, for all its bulk, just isn't optimized for a good custom loop. There's a reason there aren't many custom loop build outs for it 🙂 Take a look at this one. I wouldn't have even bothered. I would have switched to a NR200 MAX, N2, C4 or even an A4 for a custom loop. In hindsight, for an air cooled build I would go with a Fractal, Sliger or S400. A sandwich build for an air cooled SFF seems perfect. But it's a fun learning process. The Hyte taught me many things I don't want one of them being, for an AIO model, the AIO must mount in a traditional manner up top and I also don't like recessed access to the I/O ports on the MB. The Cougar Dust 2 seems to check all the boxes for a semi portable SFF build but we will see. The one I picked up I got at half the cost of new and it comes with Noctua fans instead of stock POS.

Here is why the SP115 has been sitting in a box the last few months LOL: Remember my idea was to build out a banger sff system which is why I scooped up that 13900KS to have a killer 13900 level portable system if possible. I picked up a Hyte Revolt 3 w/ PSU as my "welcome to SFF building" experience. I jumped through all these hoops to get it working in the Hyte Revolt 3, but the Hyte mounts the rad directly over the motherboard and the pressure of the tubing would eventually cause the mount to destabilize and temps would eventually creep up from expansion and contraction. I should have known when I first tried to use an extra on my shelf EVGA CLC 280 which has tubing right out of the top = even more downward pressure when closed. In a normal test case to make sure the hardware was sound, temps were absolutely fine for days on end (IE, high 70s for a 41.5-42k CB23 run with this SP115 NO delid on a 280mm AIO w/ KPx lol....insane). As soon as I mounted it and closed it temps immediately spiked to 95+. Rinse/Repeat = same results. I switched to a pump side tubing mount AIO I had in the closet (ID Cooling) mid level to low level 280 AIO. Temps were a touch higher (~82 max) because it isn't as good as the EVGA CLC 280 (which isn't even the best for a 280) but it would always initially run fine but over the course of hours or days, temps would eventually spike back up to 95+. I'd take it out, remount, same cycle. Finally, I remounted and left the side open causing no pressure on the pump/mb and it ran fine for days on end. I took everything out and tested it on the table, ran fine no problems. So the issue was the Hyte design along with the downward pressure on the MSI Z790i. As a test, I put my daughter's 12400 in there and re-installed it into the Hyte, closed it up and yep a day or two later, temps were spiking into the high 80s / low 90s. I dismantled everything and put it all back into their boxes and then I've been preoccupied with 4 laptops I have (or had) here: NH55 (which I had been meaning to get back to for some time to tame a desktop 12900k in it but the SFF phase one took over), Second Asus G18 (testing, benchmarking, trying several sets of memory, then returned because of AC BS), my daughter's P377SM-A which she finally wanted to downsize from for college so I switched her to an Acer Swift 16 OLED AMD laptop I had on the shelf (which is amazing) so I was tinkering with her system and some spare parts (4940MX, couple of MXM GPUs) for benchmarking. Now I have a lull in the action, so I'm turning my attention back to the whole SFF thing as I have a Cougar Dust 2 sitting here ready and waiting which takes a traditional approach to AIO mounting up top. I also will probably give a Dan A4 a whirl too. In the interim, I did some research on 240 AIOs and picked up an EK 240mm which seems to work the best in the Cougar and A4 (which also does a traditional on top AIO) in regards to tube management along with having some of the best thermals out there and a low profile block. It has been sitting sealed in its box for over a month now. I will rebuild everything in my test case first with the 8000 sticks from @Raiderman along with the EK 240mm and re-qualify everything then build out in the Cougar Dust 2 (aka SFF adventures Vol 2). I like the Hyte Revolt 3, but if or when I get back around to building out in it, it will definitely be an air cooled system for the CPU so something like a 7800X3D would rock in there. That leaves a lot of PSU room open with the included 700w PSU for something like a 7900xtx for a killer, portable AMD advantage system.

Thanks Bro for the deal! Phase 1 is going to be seeing where they top out in classic G2 AMD mode to see if the timings can get any tighter than the A-die 6400 sticks I have in there now at 6000/6200. Then G3 for 8000 AMD Then MSI Z790i Edge + 13900ks testing since I know this combo can hit 8200 tested with my buddy's Geil sticks a few months back no problem. Of course this combo has been sitting in the MSI box for the last month or so since the Hyte Revolt 3 was a bust and I haven't had the time to spec, prep and build out in the Cougar Dust 2 which is still sitting in the box unopened.