electrosoft

You know I tagged you in on that post earlier in this thread right?

@tps3443 did you see this post over on the OCN in regards to your hunt for another 13900ks?

True, if @Raiderman has a local MC, he can cut out a lot of the legwork right then and there.

The 7000 series by design is optimal around 6000 but some golden IMCs can do 6400-6600. tRFC on M-die does tend to cap around 400-450 albeit my best set of M-die's do 384. tCKE can do close to zero on AMD. Every kit of M-die topped out at CL30-36-36 1.4v @ 6000 SR while these A-die do 6000 28-35-35. My current AMD timings on A-die (I'm going to go back in and re-test TRFC): Unfortunately this isn't true anymore as I saw a kit of G.skill 7200 M-die's from G.skill for sale a few weeks back which completely upended my range game. Some may be able to as I know my G.Skill M-die 6400 kit can boot to 7200 but error out on TM5. @Raiderman I would suggest following @Mr. Fox advice and maybe get a kit of TeamGroup so you can lock in the Hynix component of the equation. My best set of M-die's ( 2x16GB pair I bought last year with third party aRGB heatsinks) are sitting in the drawer at the moment. I ran those for weeks on my 7800X3D both last set of BIOSes no problem before upgrading to 64GB A-die. They are dialed in and tested at 6000 with a sheet of custom timings. If for some reason the set you order still fail or still get that A6 hang let me know as these are rock solid with no issues on my X670E Carbon. If my set hangs then you will definitely know it is your motherboard or issue elsewhere not the memory.

I've been looking but I haven't found anything that associates Hynix memory for AMD with AMD Expo qualifications. It is just their version of XMP. It really is a crap shoot which brand will be under the hood unless you track down a known, good used set of sticks in regards to maker. Lucky with AMD 7000 series, M-die is as good as A-die for us frequency wise as AMD gives up the ghost even on a top bin IMC around 6400-6600 and usually settles in around 6000-6200 on SR sticks. DR sticks can sometimes be problematic >5600. At least Newegg and Amazon have good return policies if needed in case you end up with Samsung.

@win32asmguy So i finally got a chance to delid that binned 12900k and you can see now why it ran so hot in the face of superior V/F curve at 4.2 even against my cool hand luke which was still pulling a touch more but running much cooler on the desktop and laptop capped equally. Having tested ~6 12900k's and one 12900KS chips, yours just flew in the face of, "why is it pulling so low yet running so warm even capped at 140w and/or UV -.100 on the desktop even with a full 360mm AIO??" I think it is a case of a great low range V/F chip that had a terrible stim job. In this pic the STIM is grossly evenly distributed and I've never seen whole areas missing before especially with those odd patches looking this bad compared to other delid's I've done. First glance at the STIM pattern (especially around the edges of the die) left me going, "ahhhh there we go..." We'll see how it does after a proper clean up and relid.

In regards to the USB issues absolutely reasonable to focus the blame on AMD. I do know @Mr. Fox was having other issues with his Asus board though in conjunction with the AMD USB issues. My MSI had the USB issue. His Asus had the issue and my brother's Gigabyte B550 has the issue. I ended up just getting a USB PCIe card to circumvent it for his system as he wasn't willing to go through a MB swap.

Same with my X570 MSI Tomahawk. That USB issue was a deal breaker. Your adventures into the 5950x were something to behold to put it mildly.... It was definitely a bit of both.

I can usually dial in some issue or issues I've had on just about every motherboard (just comes with the territory), but there's nothing I can really complain about with the MSI X670E Carbon. Only issue I had was with Samsung DDR5 modules just acting completely inconsistent. I'm not alone though as it seems to be a problem with many across several brands of AMD AM5 boards. Hynix just works as intended. That's a nice bit of overkill in the best way. 🙂 I did the same thing with my MSI X670E board on Amazon and it was brand new except missing the original box. I still have my eye on a Taichi 7900 XTX though (especially returning the 4090 FE opens up a future budget slot). Are you still getting hang on restarts with Hynix modules? I had problems with Samsung modules but it has been smooth sailing with these M-die sets and no hangs.

I've had over 10+ EVGA power supplies including a few 1300 and 1600 models and I've never had anyone of them fail on me. I can't say the same for Corsair or Silverstone. It was a failed 2nd Silverstone out of the box that led me to EVGA years ago actually. With their new direction and nerfed warranty I will not auto purchase from EVGA anymore but I will still consider them. As for their motherboards, I've always loved them. If the Z790 series is their last (seeing as Vince and the BIOS team are leaving) it was a heck of a run. Like I mentioned before, I've kinda shifted to MSI now with Asus a close second. MSI doesn't perform as well out of the box and tends to over juice their CPUs but with tuning it produces the same results as Asus for me.

I am starting to think about a good wireless KB/M combo for my ever slowly developing travel SFF. I want to minimize wiring as much as possible down to the display DP connect and PSU adapter and power cord. Everything will be wireless (Headphones, KB and M). Priorities are response, size and price (IE Best gaming keyboard, smallest size and wireless along with mouse).

SFF buildout update (and some 8000 module testing on the Z790i and Asus Z790 Hero): Since I went with this 22" display for travel I finally returned the still new and sealed 4090 FE last week as I don't need all that power for 1080p 144hz gaming. I had picked up the 22" display open box for $80. Now I will either just use my daughter's Asus 3070 KO in there when traveling or wait to pick up a dirt cheap 6700xt/6750xt or even a well priced 4060ti for the outstanding thermals and pull. I am just looking for the best GPU at the best price (new or used) that can do 144hz near locked at 1080p at the lowest pull/thermals. I returned the N200R and ordered THIS Hyte Revolt 3 w/ 700w PSU SFF for what is a great price. I love the much better air flow and handle on top. Since I'm not using a 4090 in there but something much less powerful that gets me a near locked 1080p 144hz experience in WoW, Diablo IV and Fallout 76 max settings. I'm going to give the 3070 a testing day on that 22" display in the test rig with the Z790i setup to see what dials it in fps wise and adjust from there. I've been testing these M-dies and while the G.Fail's will boot up to 7200 they are actually only truly stable at 6400. At 6600+ they will hang with a yellow DRAM light half the time no matter what I do. This is the same set I had to get a replacement for another set. I can't blame G.Skill though as they DO perform as advertised at 6400 (passed TM5, WMD and Memtest86) but they are terrible overclockers and since G.skill is selling M-die sticks for kits rated from 6000 up to 7200 now it would make sense for them to bin as much as possible for proper placement and profit. The other M-dies which the seller from last year told me topped out at 6800 and then topped out at 6800 on my Z690 Unify when I had it also topped out at 6800 on the Z790i Edge so I can confirm that yes, their max is 6800. 🙂 They boot consistently. Looking at benchmarks for DDR5, the difference between 6400-8000 isn't as massive as I thought. 5-10fps max. -------------------- I had a chance to test out a pair of GEIL 8000 sticks on the Z790i Edge board while helping another buddy in central NJ with his system. I wanted to see if they would boot at 8000 in case I want to get better memory down the road and they did and 8200 but that was it so I know if I pick up a pair of 8000 rated DDR5 sticks my Z790i and 13900ks are good to go. They wouldn't make it past post with an orange light of DRAM fail >8200 with some QnD testing. Maybe with time and work they would have went higher but the objective was to get his 13700k + Z790 Hero up and running as he was having problems (and we need him for our Fallout 76 daily ops team lol). Clear and obvious problem was a slightly bent CPU socket pin that took about 60 seconds to straighten out. (He could neither confirm nor deny if the pin was bent when installing the CPU.....wink wink). Swapping components back and forth his 13700k IMC topped out at 7200 (barf) and Hero at 7600 (more 4 slot barf). 🤣 This was testing on those GEIL 2x16GB modules across both systems. Basically: My 13900KS + Z790i Edge + Gell 8000 = 8200 max post My 13900KS + Z790 Hero + Geil 8000 = 7600 max post 13700k + Z790i Edge + Geil 8000 = 7200 max post 13700k + Z790 Hero + Geil 8000 = 7200 max post He might return it since Asus officially claims it supports 7800+ and try to get an Apex or switch to another 2 slot MB. I told him if you're not going to upgrade to a 13900k and you don't care about the refresh you could pick from many much cheaper Z790 and Z690 boards (even B760) and extract the same amount of performance out of that 13700k. Might as well return those almost $300 sticks too and go with much cheaper sticks and end up overall saving ~$500. I told him I'd come back up and help him rebuild everything next time. FYI, he's coming from a 7700k and 1070 just retired a few weeks ago and upgrade to the above and and a 4070 FE and upgraded his 24" 60hz 1080p to a 27" 1440p 165hz display. Fallout 76 already had him banging his head off the wall performance wise but Diablo IV was the deal breaker as it ran like garbage. He is in for a major gaming upgrade but I feel like the Z790 Hero and those Geil sticks are wasted around that 13700k with the meh IMC.

Absolutely insane end game custom water cooled 7800X3D/4090 ITX build in a 10L Formd T1 V2 (note the garbage ichill 4090 pulling 30-40 more watts than the FE 4090 for the same performance):

Second 13900k or is this your first? What is the ratio to CM adapters melting versus original adapters? lol, "stable enough" exactly. I grow weary of those who want you to pound your hardware to the red line hours on end to prove some mythical level of stability that transcends your own daily needs. Do you tend to spill on your keyboards? 🙂

I figured "shots fired" from Acer when they offered that Intel Arc A770 Bifrost which is a slick and different design. Now they're bringing this? Hopefully the Predator line continues to grow and become something serious and powerful. Remember this monster beauty too from 6 years ago:

There have been plenty of cases where the plug was fully seated and fused/melted to the connector. While every brand has been susceptible, the most common combo is Asus + CableMod. I haven't had even a lick of problems with my MSI Suprim Liquid X using the stock cable. All it took was that initial CM cable to start shutting off on its own >300w to sour me on them. I don't need aesthetics that badly. They sent me a brand new 4 position EVGA -> 12vhpwr cable and it is sitting in the drawer brand new. I'm loathe to even take a chance because I know statistically speaking I will never land another 4090 like this one again just on the new 1.07v nerf alone to all models shipping now never mind 2820-2835 OOB boosting and 3120-3160 OC boosting on stock BIOS and stock AIO cooling and near zero coil whine along with >=+1600 on the memory. It literally checked all my "pretty please" boxes right out of the box. Just imagine this on the HOF BIOS and chilled water.

When I go shoe shopping tomorrow with my daughter I think I'm going to try on a pair just to see what they feel like! But that is an assault to the eyes! 🙂 " @Papusan HOF Crocs Special Edition" 🤣

Hmmmm, no 5000 (aka Blackwell) series till 2025 from Nvidia: https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-to-introduce-ada-lovelace-successor-in-2025 versus the normal 2 year cadence (IE no 2024 launch). You know there is going to be a refresh in there either this fall or early 2024. Looks like I'll be getting at least 2.5yrs+ out of this 4090 I'll have to take a look. The K5 Pro really left a bad taste in my mouth to the point I'm fine with 17K/mH Fujipoly (of which I have an abundance along with 11K/mH) unless the gains are substantive. *Sigh* EVGA.....

I remember thinking my 7970 was just a monster GPU. I loved that thing. Good seeing AMD make such massive strides over the years in performance... Yeah I have thermal pad paradise over here of all types including fujipoly normal and extreme. The specs say they use 7W/mK so there's room for improvement just right there. I refuse to work with K5 Pro ever again. It is messy and it eventually breaks down and seeps moisture. That is what happened in my X170SM-G after a year or so. I'm happy with the performance as the 13900ks is running full tilt no problem till the VRMs eventually overheat. The problem is by design itx boards are capped at ~300w max (realistically 290w before you start bouncing off that) so from an MSI perspective you will hit that cap or heat that will throttle before the VRMs. Toss in a good silicon sample that can run well under that and runs cool? Suddenly the VRMs become suspect as the chip isn't throttling anywhere else and the board has to sustained that load. All Z790i motherboards are built around a 10+1 delivery design and only MSI and Gigabyte offer 8000+ support. Asus is next at 7600 on their Strix. The rest are sub 7000. Next up is testing these DDR5 sticks (A-die 2x32GB, M-die 2x16GB).

I thought about at least the thermal pads. This is destined for a very small ITX SFF case so extra/aux fans have no room or space. The VRMs come with a built in fan already. I am going to double check it when I remove it from my test case and before I put it in the N200R for now. One of the problems is the Z790i Edge only has a 10+1+1 Phase design and relatively small heatsinks while the Z690 D4 is 16+1 with a much more massive cooling design. It had no problems running the 13900ks at stock or with reduced LLC / UV. I'm loathe to think what would happen with a garbage sample 13900k or ks trying to suck down power on this thing. Basically if you can't get it under ~290w you're going to be capped and leaving performance on the table. I'm so used to even mid bottom tier ZX90 boards all having beefy VRMs especially MSI boards where even their budget Pro line could handle 10th through 13th i9 chips like a champ with killer VRM temps. First time I've run into VRM overheating issues on one of their boards but in their defense it is an ITX board that are known for their performance tradeoffs in exchange for their size (See modern day laptops). I'm not quite sure how to translate that into a small case like eventually a Dan C4 or Lian Li A4 which is the end game. There will be no extra room inside. The Z790i Edge has a fan built into the shroud to pull air across the VRM array. After researching the 2-3 other Z790i boards on the market, they all use the same 10+1 105A design. The B760i boards all use 8+1 designs (even Gigabyte while trying to blow smoke with a double 16+2 market jargon BS). ITX boards can't match their desktop breathen both in VRM nor heatsink density. I could be just asking too much for this board to be able to power a 13900ks through a 30 min full CB23 run at full speed. I was hanging on for a good 15 to 20 minutes before temps finally hit 95c on the VRMs and it started to throttle. I do think I am going to remove the shroud and double check the pipe, heatsink and pad placements and slap in some much higher quality models. This wouldn't be the first time I've cracked open a piece of hardware and the thermal application was an absolute mess.

I'd kill for the dry heat. It isn't so much the temps in Jersey that are brutal but that humidity..... Either give me humidity or give me high temps. Don't slap me around with both! 🙂

Plight of the 13900ks and the MSI Z790i Edge: I've been testing the 13900k on the MSI Z790I Edge ITX board in my tried and true workhorse test bench Corsair 540. I'm thinking I might have to send it back but the problem may exist on other ITX boards too. At first, it ran at 5ghz with CB23 at ~35k no matter what I did so I started digging around in the BIOS and MSI defaults to ~307a versus 512a. I manually switched it back and the 13900ks was now running full tilt (ish). In hindsight this might be a purposeful choice on their part. With default power MSI style (supplying too much) and amps adjusted accordingly, the board by nature is limited to 300w (single CPU power in like all ITX boards basically) so initial runs were hitting the 300w cap resulting in ~38k. You can tell at best this board is designed right around a normal 13900k and down. I've been playing with lite load (aka MSI speak for LLC) and undervolting and reached a maximal equivalent of Mode 5 = -0.100 UV which keeps the CPU easily under the 300w cap and CB23 temp at ~68-71c. Then I did some stability runs. Mode 5 crashes out at ~6min but using a stock UV of -0.100 it has no problems since auto LLC can compensate if needed for those pesky transients. All is well, right? Nope. The 13900ks just pushes the poor VRMs to the brink. Even with the fan/cooling system on the VRMs coming to life, once the VRMs hit ~95c the whole board throttles and enters VRM throttling hell as it touches 95c, speeds drop immediately to 3200 (yes, 3200) from 5600. As soon as it backs off to ~93c, they go back up. Touches 95c again, back down they go....rinse/repeat. Meanwhile the CPU is sitting well under 300w in all cases and temps never leave the 70s even at full proper load sustained till the VRMs hit 95c and back down we go. I remember having this exact same problem with an Asrock Z390 Taichi years ago with a 9900ks before switching to an EVGA Z390 Classified and suddenly all those problems went away with better VRMs and VRM cooling. Mind you, this is in a completely open case (as pictured) for testing with plenty of outside cooling. Putting this motherboard in a cramped, hot ITX case with a GPU also in there? I'm sure my normal D2D use would most likely not push the VRMs this hard but still to know under sustained load the VRMs give up the ghost... I retested on my "lowly" Strix Z690 D4 set for a 30 min stability test with the 13900ks and the VRMs held strong the entire time not even breaking into the 80s. Score one for Asus here. I'm thinking of reversing direction and moving the 13900ks to the desktop and building out the 7800X3D into an ITX juggernaut now since it consumes a fraction of the power. Ugh....

Yeah when I clicked the Hidden Content is when I laughed out loud. 😂

Wow..... So they're going to be a peripherals and PSU maker only sooner than later? Much better profit margins but still to see them leave the GPU market then this video gives the impression they are done with the motherboard market too. 😞 I've kind of unofficially switched to MSI or ASUS (in that order) but just a sad day as EVGA has been my preferred brand since 2005 and my first, big purchase from them with for a 7800GTX (my rig) and 6600 (brother's rig). I was actually building out an Athlon 64 X2 4800+ to go along with my AMD FX-60 build at the time. FTW3 3090ti and KPE 3090ti were things of beauty but time moves on. On the other hand, I'd take a 3090ti over a 4070ti priced similarly even if it is much larger and sucks down much more power just for the 24GB of vram alone. I watch the prices on Fleabay as I wouldn't mind picking up a cheap 240/280 AIO model (EVGA or Asus) to install in my wife's system to replace her Strix 3080 10gb as all that heat spilling into her not so well ventilated EVGA DG case is a mini furnance. I would prefer to dump it out the top. She doesn't want to give up her EVGA case. She loves it. lol....chungus-class. 🙂

Ah, ok that makes sense. I'm just so used to you delidding everything that a pre-delidded CPU would be no problem. If they restocked, that makes it easy to just wait and pick one up. I thought for sure I was going to at least need to delid this one but the temps are just fantastic with the EVGA CLC 280mm. Fans don't even go to max running full tilt 5.6/4.3 all core even 10min test CB23 temps topped out at 76 so I'm set for the SFF incoming build. I think he picked up a FTW3 3090ti not a KPE 3090ti.