*Official Benchmark Thread* - Post it here or it didn't happen :D

[ryan]

I think @Ashtrixs post could be summed up as RTX is great but is it worth the performance hit. NOPE

[Clamibot]

25 minutes ago, ryan said:

I think @Ashtrixs post could be summed up as RTX is great but is it worth the performance hit. NOPE

 

Yep, traditional rasterization has gotten so advanced and looks good enough at this point where I couldn't care less about raytracing in most games. Raytracing makes for a laggy unoptimized game as all it does is make your hardware do a lot of extra work for barely any gain in visual fidelity in most cases.

 

There are cases where raytraced effects make sense, such as in dynamic scenes. If you have a day/night cycle in your game, GPU accelerated raytraced reflections could make sense, especially if you have a butt ton of objects in the scene as a realtime reflection probe would absolutely hammer the CPU in that case.

 

The problem is essentially that in most games that currently have raytracing, it either isn't used properly or isn't needed, so it ends up causing a massive performance loss for barely any visual gain. Bright Memory is an example of Raytracing being used effectively as the reflections look absolutely amazing. Same with Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition, the raytraced lighting increases immersion by a lot.

 

What we definitely don't need is raytracing being proprietary tech that requires proprietary hardware.

[ryan]

I honestly think cube maps are sufficient. I have no issues with visual quality. sometimes accurate looks worse. its assuming the world is perfect

[Mr. Fox]

3 hours ago, Etern4l said:

Makes perfect sense in your case, however, I would be replacing mainly Arctic P12s I believe, so really need something with a major kick. Will also go back and look at Bro @Papusan's earlier power fan posts. I was hoping I could get away with aircooling and silent fans, sadly at least one has to go. 

There is a notable improvement in airflow versus Arctic P12 fans. I have 9 of those on my XT45 radiator in a push configuration. They are adequate, but do not move a massive amount of air. They do not need to for that 360*360 radiator. The are very quiet and that the major reason (combined with adequacy and the fact that I already owned them) why I am using them. There are other circumstances where I have found P12 fans to be woefully inadequate due to low CFM unless combined in a push/pull configuration.

  

2 hours ago, ryan said:

I think @Ashtrixs post could be summed up as RTX is great but is it worth the performance hit. NOPE

1 hour ago, Clamibot said:

 

Yep, traditional rasterization has gotten so advanced and looks good enough at this point where I couldn't care less about raytracing in most games. Raytracing makes for a laggy unoptimized game as all it does is make your hardware do a lot of extra work for barely any gain in visual fidelity in most cases.

 

There are cases where raytraced effects make sense, such as in dynamic scenes. If you have a day/night cycle in your game, GPU accelerated raytraced reflections could make sense, especially if you have a butt ton of objects in the scene as a realtime reflection probe would absolutely hammer the CPU in that case.

 

The problem is essentially that in most games that currently have raytracing, it either isn't used properly or isn't needed, so it ends up causing a massive performance loss for barely any visual gain. Bright Memory is an example of Raytracing being used effectively as the reflections look absolutely amazing. Same with Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition, the raytraced lighting increases immersion by a lot.

 

What we definitely don't need is raytracing being proprietary tech that requires proprietary hardware.

There are ways to rationalize the pros and cons of ray tracing to suit individual preferenced and opinions. When it is used correctly it is nothing short of great, and when not used effectively it adds no value. It may even detract from value when it causes a catastrophic degradation of performance. Poorly optimized games have always been, and will continue to be, an issue with or without ray tracing. That's not something new for us.

 

I think the bottom line is that ray tracing is a thing now, will continue to be a thing in the future, and having a GPU that can manage it well enough to not be a slide show is something avid gamers should be shooting for when selecting a GPU. To say it is a gimmick that does not matter and not taking it into consideration when choosing what GPU to buy is a mistake that will ultimately end with regret and dissatisfaction as the technology matures. If it did not matter, we would not see AMD burning calories trying to get better at it, and game developers would not be incorporating it in new titles and remastered legacy titles.

 

The good news is, a GPU as mediocre and low cost as a 3060 Ti can handle it with ease if the correct graphics settings are selected. That may not be true of weaker low-cost laptop GPUs and may not be accurate for the current mid-range products offered by AMD. If they are not design to handle it, then it is going to suck with those products. All that means is that they are not cut out for the task. It doesn't mean they are garbage GPUs, and it doesn't mean ray tracing is garbage. They simply were not designed with the technology in mind, so it is unrealistic to expect them to be good at it.

 

Even though 7900XT/XTX are not necessarily fantastic at ray tracing  management, I still think you can select graphics settings that tone things down enough to allow you to enjoy ray tracing enhancements without turning the game into a slide show. When the game is immersive and captivating, this adds to the experience and differences in the magnitude of the effect are less consequential than a total absence of ray tracing in any form.

[electrosoft]

Suprim back in stock in NE:

 

https://www.newegg.com/msi-geforce-rtx-4090-rtx-4090-suprim-liquid-24g/p/N82E16814137779?Item=N82E16814137779&Description=4090&cm_re=4090-_-14-137-779-_-Product&quicklink=true

 

Looks like MSI makes *2* versions of the Suprim Liquid.

 

Liquid: https://www.newegg.com/msi-geforce-rtx-4090-rtx-4090-suprim-liquid-24g/p/N82E16814137779?Item=N82E16814137779&Description=4090&cm_re=4090-_-14-137-779-_-Product&quicklink=true

 

Liquid X: https://www.newegg.com/msi-geforce-rtx-4090-rtx-4090-suprim-liquid-x-24g/p/N82E16814137759?Item=N82E16814137759

 

Liquid X is their "OC" model apparently:

 

[Mr. Fox]

14 minutes ago, electrosoft said:

Suprim back in stock in NE:

 

https://www.newegg.com/msi-geforce-rtx-4090-rtx-4090-suprim-liquid-24g/p/N82E16814137779?Item=N82E16814137779&Description=4090&cm_re=4090-_-14-137-779-_-Product&quicklink=true

 

 

Only the hybrid version.  The Suprim (non-X and non-liquid) is only available from a NE marketplace scalper, LOL. WAY, WAY, WAY overpriced from the scalper. It is $350 more for the air cooled version from the retarded reseller source.

[electrosoft]

1 minute ago, Mr. Fox said:

Only the hybrid version.  The Suprim X (non-liquid) is only available from a NE marketplace scalper, LOL. WAY WAY WAY overpriced from the scalper.

 

The boards are identical so a block for the air cooled model would fit the liquid cooled model too fortunately.

 

I just didn't realize till just now there are two different versions of the Hybrid model.

 

 

[Mr. Fox]

1 minute ago, electrosoft said:

 

The boards are identical so a block for the air cooled model would fit the liquid cooled model too fortunately.

 

 

If/when I eventually buy one, I will buy whichever one is available cheaper with the intent of replacing the stock cooler with a waterblock. Same as I did my 3090 KPE and 3060 Ti. I would prefer the air cooled version because they are easier to sell later than a hybrid. 

[cylix]

Still amazed how gigantic the Air cooling on the 4090 is. Without it the board is pretty small.

 

@Mr. Fox, posted in the same minute. here is a waterblock that might interest you 😀

 

 

[Mr. Fox]

1 hour ago, electrosoft said:

The boards are identical so a block for the air cooled model would fit the liquid cooled model too fortunately.

1 hour ago, Mr. Fox said:

If/when I eventually buy one, I will buy whichever one is available cheaper with the intent of replacing the stock cooler with a waterblock. Same as I did my 3090 KPE and 3060 Ti. I would prefer the air cooled version because they are easier to sell later than a hybrid. 

I am not ready to buy a 4090, but based on how many of them are being under-built, if and when I land on one it seems like the good options are more or less limited to Suprim X, FE and Zotac Amp Extreme. And, those are the hardest to find. The cheaper gamer versions that are adequate for gaming leave a lot to be desired and they are not overly difficult to source. I could have purchased 30 of the mediocre gamerboy options in the past week or two.

 

The other options are light on power phases and more likely to not hold up to the kind of overclocking I would expect. If I were buying one for gaming, the least expensive option would be the best approach because any of them should function flawlessly at stock clocks and power limits. All they would need is a good cooler and a good warranty to function as a run-of-the-mill gamerboy 4090.

1 hour ago, cylix said:

Still amazed how gigantic the Air cooling on the 4090 is. Without it the board is pretty small.

 

 

It really is crazy how small they are now and how much space is wasted on gigantic air coolers.

 

When I look at how my 2080 Ti FTW3 and 3090 KPE, even my 3060 Ti FTW3, were built, it is not very confidence-inspiring. It is difficult to comprehend how much difference there is in size and to know to what degree it matters. Either the old GPUs were engineered in a very antiquated, wasteful and thoughtless manner in terms of PCB size and complexity, or the 40-series GPUs are cutting lots of corners and setting us all up for failure with lackluster engineering. Not sure which view is more accurate.

[Etern4l]

3 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

There is a notable improvement in airflow versus Arctic P12 fans. I have 9 of those on my XT45 radiator in a push configuration. They are adequate, but do not move a massive amount of air. They do not need to for that 360*360 radiator. The are very quiet and that the major reason (combined with adequacy and the fact that I already owned them) why I am using them. There are other circumstances where I have found P12 fans to be woefully inadequate due to low CFM unless combined in a push/pull configuration.

 

Well, looks like the Arctic fans are not too difficult to beat - it's impressive that the AFII does so well with those on. Surprisingly though, Noctua lost the 120mm fan performance crown! Phanteks T30 is the new king. The price is not ideal, but looking at the test results, just 3 of these on the AIO should bring the temps down enough. The catch of course is that it's a 30mm fan, so need to figure out the radiator screws. M3 are provided in the box. Anyone knows if the radiator screws on the Arctic Freezer II 360 (Rev 2 I believe, 2022 model) are M3 or M4?

 

 

[Mr. Fox]

21 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

Well, looks like the Arctic fans are not too difficult to beat - it's impressive that the AFII does so well with those on. Surprisingly though, Noctua lost the 120mm fan performance crown! Phanteks T30 is the new king. The price is not ideal, but looking at the test results, just 3 of these on the AIO should bring the temps down enough. The catch of course is that it's a 30mm fan, so need to figure out the radiator screws. M3 are provided in the box. Anyone knows if the radiator screws on the Arctic Freezer II 360 (Rev 2 I believe, 2022 model) are M3 or M4?

That's correct. They are not difficult at all to beat on performance. They are very inexpensive and only a good option when you don't need powerful fans to get the job done. Their only noteworthy virtue and admirable attribute is the low cost. If you only need a basic fan and they are strong enough to get the job done, then they are a very sensible option. I hate spending money on fans, but I also hate wasting money on junk. They are not junk, just weak fans. Mine are very old and have seen lots of use. They are holding up well.

 

I do like how thin the wires are. When you are packing an array of 9 fans (3x3) onto a square radiator, fat wires with fancy sleeves quickly become more detrimental and inconvenient than useful. The thin wires are very easy to manage and take up very little space.

[Rage Set]

8 hours ago, Etern4l said:

Guys, I need to upgrade fans on my Arctic 360 AIO and possibly elsewhere. What's the best option in the high performance range? Noctua NF-12 iPPC 3000 rpm? 

 

I use only Noctua iPPC 3000 PWN fans with both MO-RA radiators I have and I love them. I have a total of 30 of these fans in various builds around my home office. I got tired of replacing fans from other brands, mainly EKWB. I never needed quiet focused fans but I also the guy that slapped three delta fans to a modded laptop cooler. 

[Etern4l]

3 minutes ago, Rage Set said:

 

I use only Noctua iPPC 3000 PWN fans with both MO-RA radiators I have and I love them. I have a total of 30 of these fans in various builds around my home office. I got tired of replacing fans from other brands, mainly EKWB. I never needed quiet focused fans but I also the guy that slapped three delta fans to a modded laptop cooler. 

 

I have always been a Noctua fan, however, noise is a consideration for me and the Phanteks T30 apparently move about the same amount of air as Noctua iPPC, while being quieter, in fact almost as quiet as Noctuas NF-A12 on the lower RPM end. Will give them a go, hope they last (which is something reviews, kind of understandably, rarely focus on).

[Mr. Fox]

13 minutes ago, Rage Set said:

 

I use only Noctua iPPC 3000 PWN fans with both MO-RA radiators I have and I love them. I have a total of 30 of these fans in various builds around my home office. I got tired of replacing fans from other brands, mainly EKWB. I never needed quiet focused fans but I also the guy that slapped three delta fans to a modded laptop cooler. 

Most of my life I never cared about loud fans. I kind of still do not care very much, but I have to care to some degree only because I spend so many hours daily in teleconferences and video meetings now that having loud fans howling 3 feet away from my mic is just not going to fly. Even with the quiet/weak F12 fans the mic is very sensitive and the fan sound is grossly exaggerated. Sometimes people complain and I am oblivious because they are not loud from where I am sitting.

[Etern4l]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

Most of my life I never cared about loud fans. I kind of still do not care very much, but I have to care to some degree only because I spend so many hours daily in teleconferences and video meetings now that having loud fans howling 3 feet away from my mic is just not going to fly. Even with the quiet/weak F12 fans the mic is very sensitive and the fan sound is grossly exaggerated. Sometimes people complain and I am oblivious because they are not loud from where I am sitting.

 

I do enjoy quiet working conditions. With the PC etc. next to the desk, the noise level at my chair is 42dB (this is classified as "quiet library" by the Sound Meter app), goes up to 48dB (quiet library/office flickering) right next to the PC with something like 12 case fans running at full speed (not including GPU fans).

 

I imagine a typical gaming laptop with fans running at full speed and a cooler would be firmly in the high 50s. Noticeably more annoying conditions without the use of noise cancelling headphones, or similar.

[Mr. Fox]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

Most of my life I never cared about loud fans. I kind of still do not care very much, but I have to care to some degree only because I spend so many hours daily in teleconferences and video meetings now that having loud fans howling 3 feet away from my mic is just not going to fly. Even with the quiet/weak F12 fans the mic is very sensitive and the fan sound is grossly exaggerated. Sometimes people complain and I am oblivious because they are not loud from where I am sitting.

4 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

I do enjoy quiet working conditions. With the PC etc. next to the desk, the noise level at my chair is 42dB (this is classified as "quiet library" by the Sound Meter app), goes up to 48dB (quiet library/office flickering) right next to the PC with something like 12 case fans running at full speed (not including GPU fans).

 

I imagine a typical gaming laptop with fans running at full speed and a cooler would be firmly in the high 50s. Noticeably more annoying conditions without the use of noise cancelling headphones, or similar.

Here is a live example of the impact even quiet fans can have on video conferencing and video recording. As you can see in the decibel meter, the noise level is inconsequential in a live environment, but magnified in a recorded or audio streaming environment.

 

 

[electrosoft]

Still CPU bound but 12900k 4.9ghz vs 5.3ghz all core = 138fps vs 133fps average along with static spot 130 vs 140 along with an overall increase to 1% low and max fps. Still bouncing off of 100% During flight point tests and GPU never gets past 90% utilization versus the 7900XTX and 3080 10GB which were locked into 99-100% the entire time. I'm sure a decent 13900ks would bring it home since WoW likes single or at most dual core frequencies at best.

 

[Clamibot]

1 minute ago, electrosoft said:

Still CPU bound but 12900k 4.9ghz vs 5.3ghz all core = 138fps vs 133fps average along with static spot 130 vs 140 along with an overall increase to 1% low and max fps. Still bouncing off of 100% During flight point tests and GPU never gets past 90% utilization versus the 7900XTX and 3080 10GB which were locked into 99-100% the entire time. I'm sure a decent 13900ks would bring it home since WoW likes single or at most dual core frequencies at best.

 

 

Slap on a TEC AIO or custom loop and you should be able to boost the frequency on that 13900KS by another 500-700 MHz. I saw Skatterbencher's video with the new EKWB TEC and it looks awesome! I'm waiting for Cooler Master to announce their new TEC AIO as I'd rather go that route since you'd get most of the cooling power (around 88% assuming Cooler Master maintains their same 185 watt power limit on the MasterLiquid ML360 Sub Zero Evo / V2 vs the 210 watt power limit on the EKWB Delta² TEC) for probably less than half what the EKWB route would cost.

[electrosoft]

9 minutes ago, Clamibot said:

 

Slap on a TEC AIO or custom loop and you should be able to boost the frequency on that 13900KS by another 500-700 MHz. I saw Skatterbencher's video with the new EKWB TEC and it looks awesome! I'm waiting for Cooler Master to announce their new TEC AIO as I'd rather go that route since you'd get most of the cooling power (around 88% assuming Cooler Master maintains their same 185 watt power limit on the MasterLiquid ML360 Sub Zero Evo / V2 vs the 210 watt power limit on the EKWB Delta² TEC) for probably less than half what the EKWB route would cost.

 

I wish this was a 13900k lol. It's just my original 12900k overclocked from 4.9 all core to 5.3 all core and that is where it hits a wall. I am going to go back in and do per core to see how fast I can get 1-3 cores topping out.

 

I'm seriously contemplating finishing out my parts list to do a small loop and a delid. I want to see where this 4090 bottoms out in WoW and like I said before, I haven't even reached end game which is just brutal on CPUs. I'm CPU bound just in questing zones.

 

 

[Etern4l]

Phanteks T30 broken dreams, not enough clearance on the ALF II (since it already has a thicker radiator). 

Found something a little stronger anyway:

 

 

[Papusan]

13 hours ago, Etern4l said:

Guys, I need to upgrade fans on my Arctic 360 AIO and possibly elsewhere. What's the best option in the high performance range? Noctua NF-12 iPPC 3000 rpm? 

Whats your goal? Push and pull or just fans on one side? If you go with push & Pull then you can get some cheaper/weaker fans. No need for the best high end (max air flow and pressure) then. I still prefer the Noctua NF-12 iPPC 3000. And I use them in push and pull. But this is not really needed if you go with my setup. High performance fans is only needed if you go with single fan setup in push or pull.

 

I got the wrong fans for my son's build. You can look here to get the correct one.... visit the product page. They have changed a bit on the sales page and the 4000 rpm fans on same side is the wrong one to buy.

 

Be sure they arent the server fan's from Hell. You can see it on the fan blade design.

 

Be sure you don't buy fans with this design.... Quiet? Nope. Very wrong😎

 

This is the fan design you want.... longer and sleeker fan blades. The normal Alphacool fans you want come with black cable sleeving (not the ugly mess above). And the length of the cable is the more normal 40 cm. 

 

11 hours ago, Etern4l said:

Makes perfect sense in your case, however, I would be replacing mainly Arctic P12s I believe, so really need something with a major kick. Will also go back and look at Bro @Papusan's earlier power fan posts. I was hoping I could get away with aircooling and silent fans, sadly at least one has to go. 

 

8 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

There are other circumstances where I have found P12 fans to be woefully inadequate due to low CFM unless combined in a push/pull configuration.

Yep, you don't need expensive high end performance fans if you go with  push and pull. 

7 hours ago, electrosoft said:

I just didn't realize till just now there are two different versions of the Hybrid model.

What I returned.... And I always mentioned X. But I think the X model was the one that come first to the shops and reviews.

[Rage Set]

2 hours ago, Etern4l said:

Phanteks T30 broken dreams, not enough clearance on the ALF II (since it already has a thicker radiator). 

Found something a little stronger anyway:

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is what I did. I do miss my Tornado F5.

[Raiderman]

4 hours ago, Clamibot said:

 

Slap on a TEC AIO or custom loop and you should be able to boost the frequency on that 13900KS by another 500-700 MHz. I saw Skatterbencher's video with the new EKWB TEC and it looks awesome! I'm waiting for Cooler Master to announce their new TEC AIO as I'd rather go that route since you'd get most of the cooling power (around 88% assuming Cooler Master maintains their same 185 watt power limit on the MasterLiquid ML360 Sub Zero Evo / V2 vs the 210 watt power limit on the EKWB Delta² TEC) for probably less than half what the EKWB route would cost.

TEC's making a comback? I tried one back in the Phenom days, and would get to the point of diminished returns. Its was fun to mess around with for a while, but was finicky. There was a fine line between having it cool great, to having the hot side take over, Here is a pic of my first prize winning 25th anniversary AMD photo contest,(AMD Swag won) and the TEC I was using.

 

Note: This picture was taken with a Sony Mavica...You know the camera that took the 3.5 floppy disk 🤣

Also note the Quad HD Raid 0 array, and the 2 ATI 3850's crossfired 😆

Note 3: See the Cold cathode on the bottom of the case...lol

 

[Papusan]

On 1/13/2023 at 5:12 AM, Papusan said:

 

If they follow AMD, then you never know how their QC and QM will pan out😁

 

Once again AMD screw up. This time a QC problem in their sales/marketing department, LOOL

 

 

A heartbreaking mistake, AMD now says Ryzen 7000X3D is not launching on February 14th
https://videocardz.com/newz/a-heartbreaking-mistake-amd-now-says-ryzen-7000x3d-is-not-launching-on-february-14th

 

 

 

                              

 

 

Sorry, but my trust in today's tech is lowering and on same level as what they provide/offer you. More as a downwards spiral that never stop.

Doesn't this below look familiar? Haven't wee seen similar coming from AMD's never stopping QC and QM problems?

 

AMD Ryzen 7000X3D series now listed as ‘unlocked for overclocking’ videocardz.com
https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryzen-7000x3d-series-now-listed-as-unlocked-for-overclocking

 

 

Then you have this nice small notice from Techpowerup.com.... Update Jan 24th: AMD updated their product pages to remove this field altogether. 

 

 

And it seems AMD have even more nice news for the fanboys/girls in the Red camp.... Rumors, yes but with AMD you never know what you'll get as you can clearly see above😎

 

Dismal AMD RDNA 3 refresh rumor suggests all RDNA 3+ RX 7000 SKUs have been canned

Per the leaker, AMD has binned all RDNA 3+ SKUs as they failed to hit performance and efficiency targets. The leaker goes on to say that RDNA 3+ is “bad all platforms”. All_The_Watts previously suggested that the RDNA 3+ would be the “true full fix” as flagship Navi 31 featured in the RX 7900 XT/XTX and mid-range Navi 33 suffer from identical hardware bugs that Team Red was unable to discover until it was too late. Navi 32 and Phoenix APU were reportedly doing fine as AMD had managed to fix the GPUs.

 

The cancelation of the RDNA 3 refresh could be real, as Paul from RedGamingTech has also heard similar reports from some of his sources. Curiously, a few of Paul’s sources maintain that the RDNA 3 refresh is still happening, but it will be a while before the boards are released.