*Official Benchmark Thread* - Post it here or it didn't happen :D

[Etern4l]

44 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

1. No. Never had a reason to. It will likely be thicker than liquid metal and more resistant to heat transfer and also physically less thermally conductive as a matter of pure science. The key to it working correctly is getting all of the old rubber off and (if necessary) sanding the underside of the lip to make sure it is not touching the PCB when set on top of the die. It should spin on the die without touching the CPU PCB. Apply liquid metal to both surfaces during assembly or it won't work well.

2. Use liquid metal and bake it in the oven for an hour or so. You could use the Quicksilver as well if you have leftover. Either one will work. Never have seen the IHS get stuck to the die before. Not saying it couldn't happen, only that I am unaware of it based on personal experience. The reason to do it is to stop the copper from absorbing the liquid metal. You let it absorb it in the oven before installing it. Then the liquid metal will last a very long time because it is not being wicked away into the copper.

3. Leaving it loose is best, just be careful if you are using the stock ILM and not let it slide. The ONLY thing to be concerned about with leaving it loose is dislodging the SMDs outside of the IHS. Otherwise, no need for concern. Installing or removing the CPU in a chassis that is vertical makes it more dangerous to be left loose due to human error. On a horizontal installation you just have to pay attention and not allow it to move around until you have it secured. I have used one small dot under each "wing" (one left and one right) of superglue GEL (the gel only, not regular super glue). I have also used one small dot of RTV silicon under each wing.  No need for 4 spots to be glued. The only reason to do that is to keep it from moving around when installing or removing the CPU from the socket. Otherwise, reattaching it is a waste of time and just creates inconvenience later. Do not apply it on the outside corners. I have seen Dufus Jufus do that. Silly. Just put some nail polish on the SMDs outside of the IHS and you're good to go. If you use super glue GEL, it takes very little. Let it dry for 20-30 minutes under compression with the relid tool. You can release it later by soaking the CPU in acetone for 15-20 minutes. It will disolve the super glue and not harm the CPU.

 

Not the "ultra" just the regular control gel. It does not run and it is easy to control the amount applied. And, it is not as strong.

https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-234790-6-Control-4-Gram-Bottle/dp/B0006HUJCQ/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=R0WPWSAHAWK0&th=1

 

 

Edit: @Etern4l- bake the liquid metal on BOTH SIDES of the IHS - forgot to clarify that. Same reason, as given, but don't do only the underside. After baking, use the scuff pad that normally comes with liquid metal and polish it with Flitz and it will look like chrome/nickel.

 

Thanks bro. I already have this glue

 

https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-31314-Temperature-Silicone/dp/B00ID8IUJY/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=jb+weld+rtv+silicone+high+temp&sr=8-1

 

but ordered the Gel Control as well. I guess the benefit is that it doesn't expand and is easier to remove.

 

Unfortunately, the mobo position has to be vertical, so extra safety measures will be necessary, although will be initially fitting horizontally. The plan (assuming the patient survives the delidding surgery) is:

 

1.  I have some PTM7950 left, will try that for science. Don't have enough to apply on the IHS as well, so will use some good regular TIM on the outside. If results are exceptional, will stop there, if not will proceed down the LM route 

2. Do the IHS baking

3. Apply MG Chemicals Actylic conformal coating on any caps etc on the PCB

 https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07B8RY7M6?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

4. Apply Conductonaut

5. Add a little line of K5 Pro around the edges of the die as a dam

6. Glue up the wings as advised

7. If I decide to go with LM on the IHS as well, then I guess I will just use K5 Pro around the IHS (the contact frame will come in handy there) as a dam too - no point trying to use conformal coating on the half of the PC that might be exposed to spillage

 

Wish me luck :)

[Mr. Fox]

18 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

Thanks bro. I already have this glue

 

https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-31314-Temperature-Silicone/dp/B00ID8IUJY/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=jb+weld+rtv+silicone+high+temp&sr=8-1

 

but ordered the Gel Control as well. I guess the benefit is that it doesn't expand and is easier to remove.

 

Unfortunately, the mobo position has to be vertical, so extra safety measures will be necessary, although will be initially fitting horizontally, with the case lying flat. The plan (assuming the patient survives the delidding surgery) is:

 

1.  I have some PTM7950 left, will try that for science. Don't have enough to apply on the IHS as well, so will use some good regular TIM, won't bother - if results are exceptional, will stop there, if not will proceed down the LM route 

2. Do the IHS baking

3. Apply MG Chemicals Actylic conformal coating on any caps etc on the PCB

 https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07B8RY7M6?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

4. Apply Conductonaut

5. Add a little line of K5 Pro around the edges of the die as a dam

6. Glue up the wings as advised

7. If I decide to go with LM on the IHS as well, then I guess I will just use K5 Pro around the IHS as a dam too - no point trying to use conformal coating on the half of the PC that might be exposed to spillage

 

Wish me luck 🙂

That will work.

 

I really hate to see you gluing down the IHS to test the PTM7950 because even if it works well for a bit, it won't work as well as liquid metal and won't likely be as durable. There is really no space to fill between the die and IHS and I think it is not a great idea. But, if you are committed to it, then I am eager to see how it works out in spite of my skepticism. 

 

FYI - When the CPU is clamped in place, there is no air gap between the PCB and IHS, so there is no way for a stray droplet of liquid metal to escape or leak out from under the IHS. Liquid metal sticks to itself and tends to bead, which makes the danger even less. It can't really wiggle its way out unless you just go nuts and bathe the CPU with an excessive application. So, no need for fear or excessive caution putting it between the die and IHS. You want to avoid any material that is resistant to compression under the IHS. You want a pure layer of liquid metal with no air space between the die and IHS or it will impair temps. The caution needs to happen on the outside of the IHS.

 

Laying the tower on its back should be fine and totally safe. If you ever removed the CPU with the tower upright, not having the IHS tacked in place could allow it to slip and mess something up. If you always lay it down for working on it, then using the glue is optional. It can't move when the assembly is done.

 

Edit: point of clarity. The reason you want the IHS to spin freely on top of the IHS and no contact or drag against the PCB or remnants of the original rubber sealant is when you clamp it down for gluing, or if no glue is used and you clamp it down into the socket, the PCB is going to flex under pressure and the tiny air gap you started with will be totally gone. (Another reason liquid metal cannot escape.) If you have conact with the PCB before mounting the IHS, the flex in the PCB is going to push the IHS away from the die and contact will be impaired and cooling will be impaired.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Mr. Fox
point of clarity

[Mr. Fox]

6 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

  

@RaidermanI am going to try the Windows Update driver again. I have multiple Windows installations and only need the problem to be fixed with Micro$lop Office on the Winduhz 11 OS I use for work. It is absolutely critical. I can live without M$ Office for personal use 95% of the year. I rarely use Excel or Word outside of work, and Outlook is nice, but not necessary for personal use. The free web version of that is good enough for personal email.

 

If I can get this icky problem stopped, then I will probably use the 6900 XT full time in the work rig and sell the 3090 Kingpin to partially offset the cost of the 4090. If I can't, then I will use the 6900 XT just for benching.

 

I will give this community first crack at the 3090 Kingpin if it goes up for sale. I have quite a few other things I am going to put in the marketplace thread as well. I just need to stop procrastinating and do it. That cool little NUC mini-PC that I never use, a never-used Type-C docking station, two OptimusPC Foundation water blocks that I am not using, and a few other things. I did the review on that NUC, then put it on a shelf. Would be great mounted on the back of a monitor or TV for someone that has no computer. It has seen less than 20 hours use if I had to guess.

[Etern4l]

3 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

That will work.

 

I really hate to see you gluing down the IHS to test the PTM7950 because even if it works well for a bit, it won't work as well as liquid metal and won't likely be as durable. There is really no space to fill between the die and IHS and I think it is not a great idea. But, if you are committed to it, then I am eager to see how it works out in spite of my skepticism. 

 

FYI - When the CPU is clamped in place, there is no air gap between the PCB and IHS, so there is no way for a stray droplet of liquid metal to escape or leak out from under the IHS. Liquid metal sticks to itself and tends to bead, which makes the danger even less. It can't really wiggle its way out unless you just go nuts and bathe the CPU with an excessive application. So, no need for fear or excessive caution putting it between the die and IHS. You want to avoid any material that is resistant to compression under the IHS. You want a pure layer of liquid metal with no air space between the die and IHS or it will impair temps. The caution needs to happen on the outside of the IHS.

 

Cool, many thanks for your extensive comments and advice bro.

 

All we need now is a bit of luck with the delid lol

I will do some extra YT time on this tomorrow, but by and large I'm comfortable.

 

I am not necessarily planning on gluing the IHS down for the PTM7950 test, but even if I do, presumably it's trivial to undo the bond. As for the thickness thing, fortunately it melts away and it's not really a pad per se to begin with. Ideally I would test the 7958 paste, however, that's only just shipped from China, so will prob take 2-3 weeks to get here. I'm worried I won't be able to contain my inner surgeon for that long ;)

 

As for which one would work better, intuitively it would be the Conductonaut, but it may not be so simple. Yes, it's 80W/(mK) vs 8.5, but that's not the whole story. Gallium has 30W/(mK) thermal conductivity and it alloys with copper which is 400W/(mK), so you end up with a somewhat thicker layer of relatively high thermal resistance gallium-copper alloy (what the conductivity of that alloy is, I don't know, but it's likely lower than that of pure copper), whereas with pastes (the 7950 in particular) you likely get a thinner layer, but of relatively even higher thermal resistance material between copper and the nickel. I think there are two factors at play (in addition to the base thermal conductivity):

1. The actual thickness of the two respective layers, this alone would probably require instruments costing millions to measure.

2. Molecular structure could play a significant role too (unless it's already baked into thermal conductivity) - you mentioned that LM forms beads, what if it clusters at the molecular level as well, leaving micro/nano gaps? PTM7950 is supposed to have a long/branched molecules which are supposed to be of benefit, intuitively I would expect those to be smaller/squishier particles compared to those of metal alloys. 

All we need is an scanning electron microscope to find out for sure lol. Or we can just test empirically :)

 

The above could be some of the reasons why we don't generally see such astonishing improvements between LM and other pastes in practice. People have been raving about 7950 for a reason, and in my experience (2 applications so far) the material performs really well indeed.

 

Reliability/durability shouldn't be a concern either, given it's an industrial-grade material, it seemingly continues to improve its fit between the two surfaces as time progresses (I've observed this as well, it's quite satisfying actually). The excess kind of pours out like a bit of molten lava just outside of the contact area. The main concern is the lack of legit availability in the US and Europe. Is this stuff toxic or something?

 

 

[Raiderman]

3 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

@RaidermanI am going to try the Windows Update driver again. I have multiple Windows installations and only need the problem to be fixed with Micro$lop Office on the Winduhz 11 OS I use for work. It is absolutely critical. I can live without M$ Office for personal use 95% of the year. I rarely use Excel or Word outside of work, and Outlook is nice, but not necessary for personal use. The free web version of that is good enough for personal email.

 

If I can get this icky problem stopped, then I will probably use the 6900 XT full time in the work rig and sell the 3090 Kingpin to partially offset the cost of the 4090. If I can't, then I will use the 6900 XT just for benching.

 

I will give this community first crack at the 3090 Kingpin if it goes up for sale. I have quite a few other things I am going to put in the marketplace thread as well. I just need to stop procrastinating and do it. That cool little NUC mini-PC that I never use, a never-used Type-C docking station, two OptimusPC Foundation water blocks that I am not using, and a few other things. I did the review on that NUC, then put it on a shelf. Would be great mounted on the back of a monitor or TV for someone that has no computer. It has seen less than 20 hours use if I had to guess.

Now that you have bought a 4090, I have been thinking about a 7900xtx. Its nowhere near the card the 4090 is, but it would be fun to bench. I would have to go custom water as well, and sell the arctic cooler, and 6800xt. I would lose Windows 7, which I will forever love, but as you have said, the redmond nazis are choking it off to the point of no return.

 

Do you have any recommendations for 360mm water cooling kits, such as the XSPC kits? I cannot seem to find any of those anymore.

[Mr. Fox]

5 minutes ago, Raiderman said:

Now that you have bought a 4090, I have been thinking about a 7900xtx. Its nowhere near the card the 4090 is, but it would be fun to bench. I would have to go custom water as well, and sell the arctic cooler, and 6800xt. I would lose Windows 7, which I will forever love, but as you have said, the redmond nazis are choking it off to the point of no return.

Yeah, it's really sad, isn't it? Crazy that they are pushing the trash on us so hard. That alone causes me to have very serious reservations about nefarious intent.

 

Update on the MSO text issue. That Micro$lop thread is getting a lot of attention.

 

This is a known issue that is now popping up frequently on the AMD support forums (a couple examples below).  There doesn't seem to be a fix yet, but with AMD catching a lot of crap for it, one will probably be coming soon.

 

Text Issues with the Latest Drivers - AMD Community

 

Outlook365 Problems - AMD Community

 

7900 XTX is $600-$800 less that a 4090 but you should really consider the massive performance difference and more robust feature set. Not that it is a bad GPU, but everything available now is idiotically overpriced. Nothing is a good or reasonable value. If you're going to spend that much money, might as well add a little more to get a lot more.

 

[Raiderman]

I am using Office 2021 on my desktop, and have not noticed anything like that. I also use dark themes, including my custom theme. Do you use dark mode? I wonder if that would make a difference.

[Mr. Fox]

27 minutes ago, Raiderman said:

I am using Office 2021 on my desktop, and have not noticed anything like that. I also use dark themes, including my custom theme. Do you use dark mode? I wonder if that would make a difference.

Yes, absolutely. I LOATHE the eye-searing white and pastel colored feces that the Redmond Reprobates thinks to be so pretty. Makes me want to puke.

  

3 hours ago, Etern4l said:

Cool, many thanks for your extensive comments and advice bro.

 

All we need now is a bit of luck with the delid lol

I will do some extra YT time on this tomorrow, but by and large I'm comfortable.

Absolutely. That's what friends are for, right? You're going to do great and the results are probably going to be awesome.

[Reciever]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

Yes, absolutely. I LOATHE the eye-searing white and pastel colored feces that the Redmond Reprobates thinks to be so pretty. Makes me want to puke.

  

Absolutely. That's what friends are for, right? You're going to do great and the results are probably going to be awesome.

Its for this reason I probably am going to make the forums default to dark mode, Dark mode should be on as much as possible in my view.

[Eban]

21 minutes ago, Reciever said:

Its for this reason I probably am going to make the forums default to dark mode, Dark mode should be on as much as possible in my view.

 

I used to date a gothic/emo chick  avoid the dark side....but then the pastel is a bit too far in the opposite direction also.

 

 

[Papusan]

I have just an average and non delidded 13900K. Not the nice delidded KS as bro @tps3443 tested. But the results is still quite ok. I would probably get +6.1GHz in CBR-23 if I had it delidded and run direct die. It's what it is🙂 Sp111 on the P-cores so nothing special. Those will go into the Raptor refresh.

 

https://hwbot.org/submission/5234780_papusan_cinebench___r23_multi_core_with_benchmate_core_i9_13900k_45337_cb

[ryan]

Why on earth don't you guys use open office or other free alternatives. Plenty.

 

As for windows 7 I really hope windows 12 is just like 7. Enough people seem to care. Only a matter of time till microdrop listens

[Etern4l]

18 minutes ago, Reciever said:

Its for this reason I probably am going to make the forums default to dark mode, Dark mode should be on as much as possible in my view.

 

For the longest time I've only used dark mode everywhere, but for the past year or so I have been exploring the light side. It's not bad, it's sort of energising. When I switch this to dark mode now, it doesn't feels right - kind of dull.  Interesting I guess. 

[Mr. Fox]

1 hour ago, Raiderman said:

I am using Office 2021 on my desktop, and have not noticed anything like that. I also use dark themes, including my custom theme. Do you use dark mode? I wonder if that would make a difference.

OK, so I went to Micro$lop Catalog and download the October driver. Ran DDU to clean up the leftovers and extracted the cab file. I right-clicked on the INF to install the driver, then opened the subfolder and manually installed CCC. The text rendering problem is about 98% fixed now and very tolerable. Typing in Word or Outlook I have seen about once every 15 seconds of non-stop typing there will be maybe a one second delay in a character that I type appearing on the screen, but I am happy to report that no more artifacts and no disappearing and randomly transposed text, etc. A slow typist would probably not even notice what I see a tiny bit now.  If this holds true over the next couple of days, some very  fortunate person will have an opportunity to buy a 3090 Kingpin for a very good price. Crossing my fingers because I don't like swappping out parts for benching and would like to avoid that.

 

[Mr. Fox]

30 minutes ago, ryan said:

Why on earth don't you guys use open office or other free alternatives. Plenty.

 

As for windows 7 I really hope windows 12 is just like 7. Enough people seem to care. Only a matter of time till microdrop listens

One word: Outlook - there is no respectable substitute for it anywhere

Another word: Excel - if you need more than a moderately complex spreadsheet, nothing else will do

 

The free alternatives are excellent for home users and many business users, but if you are used to Micro$lop Office getting used to the free options is difficult for some people to embrace. They don't like it. It doesn't look as nice and lots of things get moved around and not where you normally find them. For others, being free is all it takes for them to love it to death.

[Etern4l]

25 minutes ago, ryan said:

Why on earth don't you guys use open office or other free alternatives. Plenty.

 

There is really just Libre Office. It's perfectly serviceable for most people. There is no Outlook, although obviously there are open source alternatives, such as Evolution. Evolution doesn't seem to have the ability to import/open .ost files, so migration wouldn't be the easiest (hence all the legal battles with M$ to force them to support open file formats and thus encourage some competition). Freedom isn't always provided on a silver platter, unfortunately - quite the opposite actually if we look at history.

[ryan]

I was thinking libre but hesitated. I personally don't need outlook. More than happy enough with Gmail and open sourced word.

 

Some of the best programs are free. Heck even video players like pot player are alot better than paid apps

[Mr. Fox]

21 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

There is really just Libre Office. It's perfectly serviceable for most people. There is no Outlook, although obviously there are open source alternatives, such as Evolution. Evolution doesn't seem to have the ability to import/open .ost files, so migration wouldn't be the easiest (hence all the legal battles with M$ to force them to support open file formats and thus encourage some competition). Freedom isn't always provided on a silver platter, unfortunately - quite the opposite actually if we look at history.

I love Evolution on Linux. It is what I use. By far the best Linux alternative IMHO.

Last time I checked there was no Windows version of it.  Has that changed? It would suit many Windows users very well, for private personal use and basic small business email, task and calendar functionality.

  

19 minutes ago, ryan said:

Some of the best programs are free. Heck even video players like pot player are alot better than paid apps

Yes, I totally agree. Lots of excellent software is free and fairly often better than the products that are not free. I think the way that sometimes happens is someone that knows how to write software gets tired of using sucky products that are sold at prices that require organ donorship, to they say to heck with that, make their own the way they want it, then share it with everyone that want something that doesn't cost a lot, does not suck, or doesn't cost a lot and suck.

 

  

47 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

For the longest time I've only used dark mode everywhere, but for the past year or so I have been exploring the light side. It's not bad, it's sort of energising. When I switch this to dark mode now, it doesn't feels right - kind of dull.  Interesting I guess. 

If it were not so white monochrome with icky cornflower blue or seaweed green accents I wouldn't hate the light mode. Everything being the same color of white is beyond disgusting to me, and I like white a whole lot. My car is white and I deliberately selected it because it was. They should tone it down with the ludicrous abuse of and make everything light gray by default It would be way better to me.

[Etern4l]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

I love Evolution on Linux. It is what I use. By far the best Linux alternative IMHO.

Last time I checked there was no Windows version of it.  Has that changed? It would suit many Windows users very well, for private personal use and basic small business email, task and calendar functionality.

 

Ah, the Windows version is indeed defunct. Guess Thunderbird is a solid option too.

[Rage Set]

1 hour ago, ryan said:

Why on earth don't you guys use open office or other free alternatives. Plenty.

 

As for windows 7 I really hope windows 12 is just like 7. Enough people seem to care. Only a matter of time till microdrop listens

 

I banned Office 365/20XX in my company when I owned/operated it. SaaS for the most part infuriates me. It is a rabbit hole I don't wish to go down, but I blame companies like Adobe, Safeforce and others. They are the reason why many small to medium size service/support businesses are disappearing. I was told by a sales manager at a larger corporation that I won't name, "Adapt or Die"...hard to do when a company offers the crappiest support service but at pennies on the dollar. I'll shut up now.

[Rage Set]

In other news, I hope you guys really consider Framework for your next business or now even gaming laptop needs. They are fighting against Lenovo, HP, Asus and others with laptops that you can really repair/upgrade over time. Many of us talked about having an upgradable laptop, well I am going to put my money where my mouth is. I am likely going to buy one.

 

They are not like the Clevo's of old with MXM graphics and socketed CPUs but they are better than the Apple's and other thin/light laptops out there. What surprised me the most is the community surrounding the laptops. 

[Papusan]

1 hour ago, ryan said:

As for windows 7 I really hope windows 12 is just like 7.

[Mr. Fox]

3 hours ago, Papusan said:

When a reason to go on is hard to identify and the situation seems  truly hopeless, sometimes you have to hang onto hope anyway until you can find a new reason or something else that gives you a new reason to carry on. Then you can let go without sinking into a place of darkness and despair.

 

I love this song... it captures that thought nicely. It is also exactly where we find ourselves as a country, planet  and technology enthusiasts.

  

4 hours ago, Etern4l said:

Guess Thunderbird is a solid option too.

Ewww... how 'bout no!

 

4 hours ago, Rage Set said:

 

I banned Office 365/20XX in my company when I owned/operated it. SaaS for the most part infuriates me. It is a rabbit hole I don't wish to go down, but I blame companies like Adobe, Safeforce and others. They are the reason why many small to medium size service/support businesses are disappearing. I was told by a sales manager at a larger corporation that I won't name, "Adapt or Die"...hard to do when a company offers the crappiest support service but at pennies on the dollar. I'll shut up now.

Amen to all that. SaaS is the work of the devil. Extortion and racketeering with a candy-coated shell.

[Etern4l]

6 hours ago, Papusan said:

I have just an average and non delidded 13900K. Not the nice delidded KS as bro @tps3443 tested. But the results is still quite ok. I would probably get +6.1GHz and above 46.000 in CBR-23 if I had it delidded and run direct die. It's what it is🙂 Sp111 on the P-cores so nothing special. Those will go into the Raptor refresh.

 

https://hwbot.org/submission/5234780_papusan_cinebench___r23_multi_core_with_benchmate_core_i9_13900k_45337_cb

 

Nice bro. Max core temp 77C at 1.4V... Hmm, how, other than LN?

[Mr. Fox]

1 hour ago, Etern4l said:

 

Nice bro. Max core temp 77C at 1.4V... Hmm, how, other than LN?

Bench-friendly ambient temperatures. Remember, @Papusanis The Snowman.

 

Currently in that part of the world... fresh, moist air