*Official Benchmark Thread* - Post it here or it didn't happen :D

[Raiderman]

So I have been looking at some custom loop kits, and found a Raijintek kit that I like. I have read a couple reviews, and most are pretty positive. What do you all think?

https://www.raijintek.com/en/products_detail.php?ProductID=153

 

 

[Etern4l]

4 minutes ago, Raiderman said:

So I have been looking at some custom loop kits, and found a Raijintek kit that I like. I have read a couple reviews, and most are pretty positive. What do you all think?

https://www.raijintek.com/en/products_detail.php?ProductID=153

 

 

 

How much is that kit roughly? 

[Raiderman]

19 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

How much is that kit roughly? 

I have found the kit I want for around $320

https://www.performance-pcs.com/water-cooling/watercooling-complete-kits/rajintek-scylla-pro-ca360-kit-hard-tube-rjk-0r10b00216.html

 

Cant make up my mind between a hard tube kit (never done, want to try), and a soft tube kit.

[Rage Set]

32 minutes ago, Raiderman said:

I have found the kit I want for around $320

https://www.performance-pcs.com/water-cooling/watercooling-complete-kits/rajintek-scylla-pro-ca360-kit-hard-tube-rjk-0r10b00216.html

 

Cant make up my mind between a hard tube kit (never done, want to try), and a soft tube kit.

 

You don't have to choose. You can do both in the same build. I have done both in many of my client builds but I prefer soft tubing for my personal builds. 

 

Even if you go full hard tubing, make sure you have a bit of soft tubing for the drain tube you're going to want built into the loop somewhere hidden. 

[Raiderman]

18 minutes ago, Rage Set said:

 

You don't have to choose. You can do both in the same build. I have done both in many of my client builds but I prefer soft tubing for my personal builds. 

 

Even if you go full hard tubing, make sure you have a bit of soft tubing for the drain tube you're going to want built into the loop somewhere hidden. 

I have a box packed somewhere that has soft tubing, and fittings. Many of these kits I have looked at are way overpriced for what they are (as usual). Not sure if its cheaper to piece my own kit together, or look for one that comes with everything. XSPC used to make a really nice kit, at an affordable price, but I cannot find those anywhere.

[Papusan]

9 hours ago, Raiderman said:

I have a box packed somewhere that has soft tubing, and fittings. Many of these kits I have looked at are way overpriced for what they are (as usual). Not sure if its cheaper to piece my own kit together, or look for one that comes with everything. XSPC used to make a really nice kit, at an affordable price, but I cannot find those anywhere.

Make you an build guide. Then check what every parts will costs from a good quality manufacturer. 200cm Tube is more than enough. Then compare what it totally will cost you. A bonus advice as last. Buy spare parts. You'll need it 🙂

 

 

[ryan]

Surprised no one uses ic diamond these days

 

Which material has the highest thermal conductivity?

 

 

Diamond

 

Diamond – 2000 – 2200 W/m•K

Diamond is the leading thermally conductive material and has conductivity values measured 5x's higher than copper, the most manufactured metal in the United States.

[electrosoft]

3 hours ago, Raiderman said:

I have found the kit I want for around $320

https://www.performance-pcs.com/water-cooling/watercooling-complete-kits/rajintek-scylla-pro-ca360-kit-hard-tube-rjk-0r10b00216.html

 

Cant make up my mind between a hard tube kit (never done, want to try), and a soft tube kit.

 

Having done hard tubing on RaspberryPi projects for aesthetics (mainly cable routing to look fancy), I am fully in the soft tubing camp.

 

I like the idea of that all in one kit but are there any reviews on it especially the CPU block? As that can make or break a loop real quick.

 

 

[Raiderman]

28 minutes ago, electrosoft said:

 

Having done hard tubing on RaspberryPi projects for aesthetics (mainly cable routing to look fancy), I am fully in the soft tubing camp.

 

I like the idea of that all in one kit but are there any reviews on it especially the CPU block? As that can make or break a loop real quick.

 

 

https://www.kitguru.net/components/leo-waldock/raijintek-scylla-elite-ca360-review/

 

https://www.funkykit.com/reviews/cooling/raijintek-scylla-pro-diy-water-cooling-kit-review/6/

[Papusan]

38 minutes ago, Raiderman said:

https://www.kitguru.net/components/leo-waldock/raijintek-scylla-elite-ca360-review/

 

https://www.funkykit.com/reviews/cooling/raijintek-scylla-pro-diy-water-cooling-kit-review/6/

DDC Pump more prone to dump heat into the loop. They often have shorter lifespan than D5 pump. Not very impressed by this custom water kit. 

[Raiderman]

31 minutes ago, Papusan said:

DDC Pump more prone to dump heat into the loop. They often have shorter lifespan than D5 pump. Not very impressed by this custom water kit. 

The Pro kit comes with a D5 pump/reservoir combo, just as the XSPC kit did.

 

https://www.raijintek.com/en/products_detail.php?ProductID=154

[Papusan]

1 hour ago, Raiderman said:

The Pro kit comes with a D5 pump/reservoir combo, just as the XSPC kit did.

 

https://www.raijintek.com/en/products_detail.php?ProductID=154

Yep, thats better. Here's the review of the block in that kit.

Raijintek Forkis Pro RBW CPU Water Block Review techpowerup.com

But I prefer soft-tube over Hard-tube. More flexible in all ways.

[Raiderman]

48 minutes ago, Papusan said:

Yep, thats better. Here's the review of the block in that kit.

Raijintek Forkis Pro RBW CPU Water Block Review techpowerup.com

But I prefer soft-tube over Hard-tube. More flexible in all ways.

Ive done several soft tube systems over the years, thought I would try a hard tube set up. They look very clean when finished.

 

From the review "The likes of EK and Optimus have CPU blocks that cost 3-4x as much as the Forkis RBW, if not more with special editions, and yet everything is close enough in performance to where it won't be a big enough reason these days to justify the price increase."

[Etern4l]

3 hours ago, ryan said:

Surprised no one uses ic diamond these days

 

Which material has the highest thermal conductivity?

 

 

Diamond

 

Diamond – 2000 – 2200 W/m•K

Diamond is the leading thermally conductive material and has conductivity values measured 5x's higher than copper, the most manufactured metal in the United States.

 

IC Diamond is obviously not made of pure diamond... The content must be basically trace at best, or the TIM would be unaffordable. Still, it was supposed to be pretty good and durable, however, it can scratch the surfaces it's spread on, and seems hard to find. Better options are available these days I guess.

[Papusan]

18 minutes ago, Raiderman said:

Ive done several soft tube systems over the years, thought I would try a hard tube set up. They look very clean when finished.

 

From the review "The likes of EK and Optimus have CPU blocks that cost 3-4x as much as the Forkis RBW, if not more with special editions, and yet everything is close enough in performance to where it won't be a big enough reason these days to justify the price increase."

Yep, can see this. But I prefer tinkering with different things. And soft tubing ease that up. So better for me.

 

Be sure you leak test each part or the whole system before you fill up your loop. Much easier tracking leak problems afterwards with soft tubing. All depends how you put up your loop. Please post back when you have got your kit🙂

[Etern4l]

Played around with the delidded CPU and different pastes, but it's as good as it gets without LM which I'm still procrastinating on. Need to come up with some good foam dam for the cooler application. I suppose no sponge has flashpoint below 100C, so will just get some filter sponge and cut the dam out. K5 Pro is too messy.

 

Performance is slightly below where it was at the apex, but still: the below results look OK for 55/44 ratios. There is a bit of OC headroom left, but I'm beat for now.

 

Indigo (about 260W, high eighties C)@Raiderman

 

 

 CB23 (290W, low nineties C)

 

[tps3443]

On 3/22/2023 at 5:14 PM, Etern4l said:

 

Ha, mine did low 40k on just stock ratios, I just didn't realize the undervolt had such an effect. 41k was with 45 on the e-Cores (and long term unstable UV, actually it might have been closer to -80 or -100mV).

What do you even mean by "stock power limits"? The CPU has no power limits. 

 

Edit: notebookcheck corroborates what you said: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Core-i9-13900K-Processor-Benchmarks-and-Specs.666495.0.html

 

Median 38200. I guess maybe my chip wasn't bad to begin with, and clearly UV helps. I don't know what the score on default voltages was I think I UVed straight away. 

 

Expecting great things from the delid then, the kit already shipped.

You are correct, and I know they can score 41K while running 5.5Ghz ratios. But, that would be exceeding the max/default 253 watt turbo power TDP, which voids the Intel warranty as this is considered “Overclocking”

 

With great power comes great performance. But it’s all still overclocking whether you are at 5.4Ghz all-core or not. 

[Etern4l]

11 minutes ago, tps3443 said:

You are correct, and I know they can score 41K while running 5.5Ghz ratios. But, that would be exceeding the max/default 253 watt turbo power TDP, which voids the Intel warranty as this is considered “Overclocking”

 

With great power comes great performance. But it’s all still overclocking whether you are at 5.4Ghz all-core or not. 

 

 I have done 41k with 55/45, but the UV was long term unstable so dropped it.

 

Overclocking unlocked Intel CPU voids the warranty? Nice. People needn't worry about voiding warranty when delidding then, since it's already been voided for most reasonable K CPU users who bought them to play around with OC :)

[tps3443]

10 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

 I have done 41k with 55/45, but the UV was long term unstable so dropped it.

 

Overclocking unlocked Intel CPU voids the warranty? Nice. People needn't worry about voiding warranty when delidding then, since it's already been voided for most reasonable K CPU users who bought them to play around with OC 🙂

 

I was just saying that the 40-41K is definitely not stock for 13900K and considered outside of stock power spec for Intel spec sheet. Anymore than that 253 watt is not guaranteed under warranty. Especially due to degradation etc.
 

These are fast and hot chips though, with lots of headroom. So we delid, then direct die, and push to 45K+ R23 which is about a 27-28% bump in performance over a truly “Stock” 13900K. 
 

You can degrade a 13900K very easily though. Make sure to avoid any long term extended stress testing. Especially if you’re over that 250+ watts. It is really bad for these chips. Quick runs are a non-issue though.
 

We’re in a new realm of chips. Their power envelopes are pushed to the max. And we don’t do stability testing like in the old days with these 2-8 hours Prime 95.
I certainly would not advise it. 
 

I would overclock or undervolt, and run through all of your apps and games. And if it works it works. If it’s not stable add voltage or reduce OC etc. 
 

 

[Papusan]

40 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

 I have done 41k with 55/45, but the UV was long term unstable so dropped it.

 

Overclocking unlocked Intel CPU voids the warranty? Nice. People needn't worry about voiding warranty when delidding then, since it's already been voided for most reasonable K CPU users who bought them to play around with OC 🙂

Just enable XMP and you already voiding Intels warranty as this is considered “Overclocking”. But nothing different vs AMDs own rules regarding oc’ing and warranty. 

[Etern4l]

2 hours ago, tps3443 said:

 

I was just saying that the 40-41K is definitely not stock for 13900K and considered outside of stock power spec for Intel spec sheet. Anymore than that 253 watt is not guaranteed under warranty. Especially due to degradation etc.
 

These are fast and hot chips though, with lots of headroom. So we delid, then direct die, and push to 45K+ R23 which is about a 27-28% bump in performance over a truly “Stock” 13900K. 
 

You can degrade a 13900K very easily though. Make sure to avoid any long term extended stress testing. Especially if you’re over that 250+ watts. It is really bad for these chips. Quick runs are a non-issue though.
 

We’re in a new realm of chips. Their power envelopes are pushed to the max. And we don’t do stability testing like in the old days with these 2-8 hours Prime 95.
I certainly would not advise it. 
 

I would overclock or undervolt, and run through all of your apps and games. And if it works it works. If it’s not stable add voltage or reduce OC etc. 
 

 

 

I hear you, all good advice - I wish we knew all that going in lol. Good point on stock being defined also in terms of power limits, even on unlocked CPUs. Would never occur to me Intel would sell CPUs which are automatically out of warranty on most systems, that's a pretty under-handed tactic.

 

Anyway, as it turns out, you can melt an undervolted Intel flagship without any or minimal overclocking (ratios > stock) with just an upgraded AIO... Ultimately that's an unpleasant surprise to me, given my experience with other Intel desktop, laptop, workstation and server CPUs which could be considered super-robust devices that never really fail. My 12900KS was more resilient, but that was running at around 225W.

 

Consequently I just assumed cooling is the effective limitation, didn't even bother checking the nominal power limits. Something must have happened to the solder on the 13900K as it was subjected to roughly 275W loads. Someone calculated that the heat flux on Intel's latest desktop CPUs approaches that of a Bunsen gas burner (2W/mm2)... I mean melted/cracked solder, seriously? It's not just me, as google would confirm. All these "Sudden rogue core/temps issues... hey, delid helped!" threads for instance.

 

Once again I hope Intel reduces heat flux and generally improves the cooling solution for their next gen desktop CPUs....

 

As a result of all this though, I worked out a fairly efficient UV profile: 39.5K at 250W in CB23, and that's running at like 80C or less on my system now with the delid, without even resorting to LM. It's adapt (undervolt and power limit) or rather easily damage Intel's latest "unlocked" CPUs at stock ratios. 

  

1 hour ago, Papusan said:

Just enable XMP and you already voiding Intels warranty as this is considered “Overclocking”. But nothing different vs AMDs own rules regarding oc’ing and warranty. 

 

Truly disgusting either way.

[Mr. Fox]

12 hours ago, Etern4l said:

A roaring success @Mr. Fox. Approx. 20C temp reduction on first installation with PTM7950 on the die, and TF7 on the heatsink (prob my worst paste, just to put something on for the initial calibration). I haven't even validated the heatsink alignment. Of course, this vs rather poor initial state, but still.

 

Many thanks for advising this somewhat radical approach! Granted a few things could have gone wrong, but didn't:

 

* Rockit Cool sent me the kit straight away

* Most importantly, the delid worked (almost) perfectly - I say almost, because witih careful examination there is an ever so slight bend on the left wing (the one making contact with the pusher). By my eye it's less than 0.1mm, probably much less, it's barely visible, so I'm considering it immaterial, and would be very easy to lap off if needed

* Cleanup was the most consuming part, both the silicone sealant removal and desoldering

BTW don't know why Rockit call solder "sodder" in their instructions - doesn't have a nice ring to it in British English 😄, but I guess that's appropriate given how annoying the "sodder" is to remove lol

* PTM7950 was about as annoying to apply as usual, meaning I'd much rather use the paste, but the relidding tool worked perfectly. The copper IHS landed well clear of all the caps at the bottom and left side of the IHS, and fits the Thermaltake frame well.  Screwing the contact frame on was a little bit more difficult, I had some trouble engaging the bottom two screws, but it worked in the end.

 

One thing that bothers me is I didn't have Loclite "Gel Control", and just wanted something very temporary so went with the much cheaper "Power Gel".

 

It's a pretty weak glue in my experience, so my assumption was that there is no risk of this damaging the PCB, and the downside vs using "Gel Control" is that it might just break off very easily. Please advise if there are some known more serious concerns around this. 

 

Given that I'm more than happy with where things are at the moment (my intention is not to exceed 250W of constant power draw on this chip), I will take a moment to check the heatsink alignment and apply what's probably the best traditional paste in my arsenal (Alphacool Apex), and defer further experiments until 7958 paste arrives, as this super-workable as is. At that point I will reopen and  try two things:

* Conductonaut on the original IHS which looks great after cleanup

* 7958 on both sides of the copper IHS

And maybe Conductonaut on the copper IHS depending on prior results and keeping in mind my modest power draw requirements.

 

Again, many thanks to you and others for the various pieces of pro knowledge and support. In case it wasn't apparent, I was getting a bit frustrated with the thermal issues, and the advice to delid was absolutely spot-on (although the new faster pump/larger backplate AIO is probably also helpful, I will test vs Arctic if I have the time). Time to pop the champagne, cheers!

Sounds like a fantastic weekend with great results. That glue is probably going to be fine. The most important thing is that it is gel, not liquid.

 

Ordered a Bykski block for the Suprim. Also redid my loop with new fittings and have it ready to go. I added a drain tube for the manifold to make it easier to drain. That black heat sink is just sitting on the back plate to help wick off some of the heat. And, it helped. That Suprim back plate gets crazy hot. Way hotter than the one on the Liquid X did, but that makes sense considering it is air cooled and going to get hotter. At least it is pulling the heat off the VRAM.

 

 

[Etern4l]

1 hour ago, Mr. Fox said:

Sounds like a fantastic weekend with great results. That glue probably going to be fine. The most important thing is that it is gel, not liquid.

 

Ordered a Bykski block for the Suprim. Also redid my loop with new fittings and have it ready to go. I added a drain tube for the manifold to make it easier to drain. That black heat sink is just sitting on the back plate to help wick off some of the heat. That back plate gets crazy hot.

 

 

 

Yep, that first delid was def exciting, thanks again :)

 

The first glue application is gone BTW. I also learned the hard way it's easy to mess up TIM on a delided CPU by disturbing the IHS - read the same is very true of LM applications. Had to reopen which was very easy using the delid tool, then just cleaned up with acetone. Zero residue or PCB damage. Second time around I didn't relid, since I expect this to be a temporary TIM test setup (Alphacool Apex, has done a good job so far, but quite not as good as the slightly dodgy specimen of 7950 from local ebay, which actually managed to glue itself to the mirror-like die, easy to clean up of course).

 

Your custom loop shots are an inspiration. One day...

 

  

7 hours ago, Raiderman said:

https://www.kitguru.net/components/leo-waldock/raijintek-scylla-elite-ca360-review/

 

 

The kitguru review failed to blow me away. CPU cooling performance same as Noctua air cooler, and generally they used a pretty weak CPU for the test.

[Mr. Fox]

4 hours ago, Etern4l said:

Your custom loop shots are an inspiration. One day...

Thank you. Building it easy with flexible tubing and has the added advantage of making changes and redesigning on the fly easy. The hard part for me is keeping a system looking nice because of the absolutely brutal dust here. It's not just normal dust, but sand, so cleaning requires that you take extra care to avoid scratching things up really bad. And, no matter how much effort goes into it, eliminating scratches completely is borderline impossible. Just blowing the dust off with air can cause fine scratches on things like acrylic.

 

Cooling systems are also less efficient here due to the lack of humidity. While it is helpful to have low humidity with a chiller, or something exotic like phase change or cascade cooling, in terms of avoiding condensation; in other circumstances (normal air or liquid cooling) the dry air makes radiators far less efficient. When the air has some moisture it adds an evaporative quality that really helps radiators (liquid and air) work better... kind of a swamp cooler effect, I suppose. During monsoon season, my system runs notably cooler than it does during normal Phoenix weather.

 

[Papusan]

3 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

Thank you. Building it easy with flexible tubing and has the added advantage of making changes and redesigning on the fly easy. The hard part for me is keeping a system looking nice because of the absolutely brutal dust here. It's not just normal dust, but sand, so cleaning requires that you take extra care to avoid scratching things up really bad. And, no matter how much effort goes into it, eliminating scratches completely is borderline impossible. Just blowing the dust off with air can cause fine scratches on things like acrylic.

 

Cooling systems are also less efficient here due to the lack of humidity. While it is helpful to have low humidity with a chiller, or something exotic like phase change or cascade cooling, in terms of avoiding condensation; in other circumstances (normal air or liquid cooling) the dry air makes radiators far less efficient. When the air has some moisture it adds an evaporative quality that really helps radiators (liquid and air) work better... kind of a swamp cooler effect, I suppose. During monsoon season, my system runs notably cooler than it does during normal Phoenix weather.

 

Where's the link for the Asus Product Survey? Thanks🙂

 

https://hwbot.org/submission/5236784_papusan_3dmark___fire_strike_ultra_geforce_gtx_980_4213_marks/