1610ftw
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Everything posted by 1610ftw
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Yep, the 4070 is a meh upgrade over the 3070Ti but if the price is right it still is better than the 4060 and 4050. I would not be surprised if Intel and certain companies struck a deal where those companies have to buy a certain minimum number of 13980HX to be able to use them. I think that XMG has alluded to that somewhere. This would also mean that they have to go into a higher number of laptops which for a change is good for the end user.
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If they had a workstation version with more memory and storage slots and a less hideous look I would be very interested. Even the keyboard with its extra keys is quite nice - always liked that. The screen / resolution combo is the best one for me right now and so are noise levels according to people who have used it. There is a 13980HX / 4060 and a 13650HX / 4050 option which makes the 4060 option interesting for people who just want the top of the line CPU. Edit: Looks like the 13980HX is also paired with the 4050 in the US - wow!
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Don't worry, you are among friends here. Many of us remember better days when it comes to laptops and for those of us the current situation is kind of depressing and Nvidia trying to sell us a 4080 chip in a laptop as a 4090 is silly. Misleading naming conventions aside there will be a lot of power to be had in the top units, no reason to not be happy with that if that is what you need, if not go with a desktop for better bang for the buck. Looking at the first incoming results from this laptop generation it looks like for QHD the 4080 will be good enough and for 4K even the 4090 will be borderline so I would go with the 4080 if I was into mobile gaming and considering that the 4070 has turned out to be quite the disappointment.
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It has been explained here and in other threads that laptops used to have higher TDPs, more memory and storage slots and they were also more modular. No need for people to delude themselves into thinking that laptops couldn't be better as clearly they could be. Subpar GPUs are probably the biggest hindrance to greatness followed by a combination of slim and light and abandonement of socketed GPUs and CPUs. Those developments were not necessary for all laptops and there was a market for bigger and higher perfomance units until AMD, Nvidia and Intel stopped supporting socketed designs and all of that was accelerated by the thin and light trend that now means we do not even get thicker BGA books any more.
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4050 to 4070 being so gimped that more power does not do anything for them is ridiculous and almost amounts to false advertising - why advertise a TGP of 140W if you only have 100 or 105W when it counts? Nvidia better address that! A 4080 laptop for 2500 and a 4090 laptop for 3000 aren't that bad compared to the last generation so I will not be too harsh there. What annoys me more is that these are hardly what I would call proper DTRs any more and the workstations that could fill in will usually be power limited and/or gimped with regard to things like undervolting, power limits or fan control, not to forget the memory money grab from Dell. I was really looking forward to an 18" laptop with a powerful CPU and a middle of the road GPU but I also want storage and memory in sufficient quantities and those thin and light laptops just don't offer it and overall are hard to take seriously.
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Must have missed that indeed. I wonder how they manage to use maximum power in Furmark then and to what effect - heating up the room in winter?
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Nvifdia would not be to blame for 5000$ + prices but they would be to blame if they offer their "4090" mobile chip at 4090 desktop prices. They are also to blame for not allowing a higher TGP in laptops - let customers and manufacturers decide. And what is it with crippling of the 4050, 4060 and 4070 - talk about deceiving the customer and manufacturers: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Nvidia-s-TDP-values-for-the-RTX-4050-4060-and-4070-Laptop-do-not-matter-for-gaming.698161.0.html I like how they limited power for both Time Spy and gaming so that people get a pretty good idea about the gaming performance while running Time Spy - You think you have a 140W GPU laptop but the max that your GPU is really using is 100 to 105W - can't make that up!
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For comparison I would like to see how much CPU power can really be sustained at a certain temperature limit with something like a 30 minute Cinebench run. For example the MSI GT77 chassis can sustain up to about 150W in such a test for 30 minutes without additional cooling and with stock TIM and at 95 degree prochot. That is quite good imo and not too far away from what I have seen from the X170KM-G in stock configuration. I would be interested to hear how much higher the X170 can go with: - everything stock and regular tim - delidding - different tims including liquid metal - aftermarket heatsink with air cooling - aftermarket heatsink with air and water cooling Both are also unbearably noisy with fans at max so it is a shame that we cannot also standardize noise levels, but then there are other variables that we cannot account for either so looking at the numbers that we can control could be a start. I am not that interested in GPU performance but I already noticed that Nvidia seems to regulate GPUs to a much higher degrees than Intel does CPUs so comparing CPUs probably would be easier.
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OK, it was only 2 x 190W: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Eurocom-Sky-X9C-i7-8700K-GTX-1080-SLI-Clevo-P870TM1-G-Laptop-Review.274230.0.html#toc-7 The Witcher stresstest went up to over 450W power consumption: Here are some power consumption vs performance numbers: Excellent performance down to 270W and still good performance at 220W so at around 225 to 275W we should be looking at something like 80 to 90% of stock performance.
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There are limits to what can be done but we have gone down from up to 2 x 200W for GPUs to 1 x 175W - manufacturers could do better than that. Also even at 250W a 4090 that actually uses the 4090 desktop chip could achieve at least 80% of the performance of its desktop counterpart and often more.
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To be honest the mobile CPUs are pretty good - it is the GPUs that stink compared to what we can get in a desktop.
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The GT77 is a rather bad example as it is hideously expensive but you will probably be able to find other models that will at least give you stable 30K and 21K respectively at a lower price. I would guess that you can sell your 3080 for not much less than you paid for it, didn't you get a great deal? As for the Clevo DTRs being overrated they have certain characteristics not found in most or even no laptops today so if someone seeks that they are still valid choices. If you only need something fast with little modularity / serviceability and normal memory / storage than you can obviously do better by now - that is just progress and it so happens that the last two years first saw a big jump in CPU performance and then another one and now also a big jump in GPU performance.
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Yes of course it is not an everyday demand but they are not called DTR's for nothing 😄 As for SSDs this is approximately the German price at the moment if you want a total of 8TB of decent performance TLC SSD and taking into account regular deals: 4 x 2TB: ca. 400 2 x 4TB: ca. 800 1 x 8TB: ca. 1100 So there you have it - savings and potential expansion to 20TB+ total at a later point 🙂
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If all else fails you may want to swap your 11900K for a previous gen 10 core CPU. These do not seem to have the shutdown issues even with earlier software and they also have superior multi-core performance. If you continue to have the shutdown issues with one of those you may have a defective board.
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If someone needed at least 17" and more than 2 memory and/or storage slots there would be a much smaller selection. The X170KM-G offers that.
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Yes I know the studiobook. I was talking about the Zbook 16 G9. It does not hold that kind of die but it still has an MXM style GPU and all that memory and storage (4+4). If you would scale that chassis to 18" the HP could use almost the entire added real estate on the motherboard for a bigger die and even free some additional space by going with a BGA instead of MXM solution that would be better suited to handle the 4090 chip and its bandwidth requirements. Again I do not think this will happen but it would be possible to do that.
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This is the wrong thinking for an ultra high end card - of course it will only be in a few select laptops. But these days we just pretend that a card is ultra high end in order to then sell many more then if there was a truly high end offer. Motherboards would not have to ditch a ton of things if they finally went back to stacking things in laptops - HP does this in an extremely compact 16" chassis with 4 memory sticks and 4 full size NVME slots and a vapor chamber so an 18" version of that chassis surely could handle the 4090 chip as most of its additional real estate could go to the GPU and that would be a lot of real estate going from 16 to 18". But yes this will probably stay a pipe dream. As brother @Papusan points out the numbers make a lot more sense with what we have now - pretending that something is special that can be built and accommodated much more easily is a sure fire way to make a lot more money. It helps that these pretender chips can be put into almost every half decent laptop chassis while a truly high end chip would be relegated to only a few units.
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They could have just kept everything as it is now but with names adjusted to one tier lower. Then introduce the 4090 chip in super high end laptops that can go up to at least 250W and preferably more if the laptop manufacturer is crazy enough. That would have been fun. Now there is only some fun in the Intel and soon AMD CPU's but the GPUs are at best meh. Before I would have thought that the 4070 would be reasonably cheap and a bit better than last generations 3080 Ti but now it really looks like it is the least interesting card for this generation. As I said somewhere else if one isn't adverse to (for me) hideous gaming looks the Asus Strix G18 looks interesting with 2.5K with the 4080 and I also have to mention the Tongfang/Uniwill water cooling solutions with 16 and 17" screens that seem to be priced quite well. Other than that lots of high priced stuff that does not really add a lot with regard to performance.
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Thanks for the clarification - I did not know if the 2 x 4GB may have been Samsung memory but I somehow doubted that you would be very happy with a total of 8GB memory 😄
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I think Nvidia made a boo-boo there. They were probably shooting for a mildly disappointing 10 to 15% increase and instead completely missed the boat. At least 3070Ti laptops will fly off the shelves now...
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What a blunder - I guess we will see if Nvidia makes a few changes with all the bad reviews pouring in.
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That has got to be one of the biggest blunders in this generation - take a family of far superior chipsets and go down so many tiers that finally with something like the 5th tier chip you cannot even surpass the direct mobile predecessor in raster performance with what used to be the second best and now third best mobile card. What is interesting is that when there was an early leak the 4070, 4080 and 4090 were really close with regard to performance in Time Spy and now the difference between the 4070 and the 4090 is huge and that is even before we are looking at memory: This was wccftech via notebookcheck: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Nvidia-Ada-RTX-4080-Ti-mobile-and-RTX-4070-mobile-score-significant-leads-over-the-RTX-3080-Ti-Laptop-GPU-in-leaked-Time-Spy-benchmark.669440.0.html Apparently somebody at Nvidia had second thoughts about performance and both made the 4070 20% worse and the 4090 20% better. All of a sudden the 4070 does not look like a good value any more relative to the 4090 and 4080!
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I am tempted by that 10900K! Your signature says; ZtecPC X170SM-G Prema | SL 10900k | Nvidia RTX 2080 Super (Currently DOA) | Corsair 3800 @ 3200 14-14-14 | 17.3" 1080p 144hz So it still has that screen and the Prema bios and I take it that the memory is not the Corsair but something different?
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State of Clevo in 2023, especially regarding durability?
1610ftw replied to yhancik's topic in Sager & Clevo
First thing is of course that you should try to fix your unit. If that fails or isn't worth it then I would recommend to go with a Dell or HP workstation. Build quality will be better and you will get a socketed GPU (or no GPU) if you want and parts availability should be better 5 years down the road and the same seems to go for overall reliability. Depending on where you live you may also get great offers on refurbed units directly from the manufaturer with added warranty package options. What made Clevo special to many of us was the ability to swap the CPU and/or GPU which isn't possible any more and then there was the @Prema bios which also is a thing of the past it seems as at least for now he has moved on to Tongfang / Uniwill but they so far do not have much of a track record for longevity so I would not recommend them for a laptop that you want to keep for such a long time. -
Saw that, too - looks promising and that was apparently without overclocking so it would be around 37K stock and not just for an exceptional outlier. That is if TDP does really scale to double what the 7745 gets which I am not sure about but still this will be a chance to get 35K+ CR23 without blowing 200W on the CPU alone. Too bad that these 16 core CPUs will probably not come with Thunderbolt support that I would currently still need for 10G network speed. Edit: Just saw that the 7745 needed 95W for that score so it would be 190W for double the number of cores with everything else being the same - that would not really be that much better than the current top of the line Intel chips and with a lower single core performance.
