1610ftw

W11 is trash indeed - it makes a windows PC look like a bad copy of a Mac and takes hours and hours to regain most of the functionality that we finally got in W10. I have one system that runs it as I was interested in having Android apps on a Windows system for certain reasons but they even fucked that one up offering the Amazon instead of the google playstore - what a monumental fail. Also agreed on SSDs - for storage it would be nice to have classic TLC based SSDs with lower speed as a cheaper option but there aren't any bigger ones in the m2 form factor and looking at non-QLC m2 form factor SSDs of 4TB and above it makes me think that producing these must be like printing money:

Tell them that everybody is scratching their heads at the utterly insufficient cooling and power envelope especially of the 7770 but also the thick 7670. Vapor chamber would be the best way forward indeed and it seems to work very well with the 5760.

That is blazing fast and about 12 times as fast as my transfers get which are mostly via network. With an MSI laptop I would suggest to run cooler boost when transferring files at that speed and lacking that you will need to have a look at other ways of cooling. At those speeds I am not surprised you are seeing overheating at all. Two 4TB drives is indeed massive but you may also just pack in an additional SSD when on the go, something that fits your system should be 500GB tops. You can then back up your system on the second SSD and the likelihood of both your system and your other SSD failing at the same time is not higher than before but you will have a lot more space if you just take that small drive with you where you can recover your system partition, too.

You put in a lot of posts here and I am sure you attracted a bunch of HP users to this subforum 👍 But yes overall it is still not that much traffic. I also miss the HDX Dragon thread from the old forum - that one was massive and brought me to that forum 🙂 To be fair the Lenovo and Asus sections of the forum also aren't very big, the big sections are Sager/Clevo because of their socketed gaming offers and as expected Dell/Alienware for gaming and workstations. If HP got their act together instead of locking down their workstations and pricing them higher than comparable offers by Dell the pendulum may swing to their side but they do not even have a bigger screen on offer any more which makes them less interesting even though this little workstation packs a punch with its hardware. And ironically the by far biggest thread here is mostly dedicated to desktop hardware overclocking not least because of the industry essentially giving up on truly exciting designs and performance in laptops with Nvidia being the main driver of that downward spiral with their increasingly gimped top of the line mobile GPUs that leave no room for companies who want to do better.

I would also prefer separate SSDs without any RAID configuration. In a laptop a RAID configuration is too limiting imo except for very special cases.

How fast is the transfer? I think that with some of these newer drives transfer speed is so extremely high that they get hot much faster than they used to. These days I always try to increase fans for longer transfers to add cooling to the SSDs but I understand that many laptops do not allow it. On the Dell 7760 I can get sustained transfers in the 300 to 400 GB region that would not see the SSD go over 60°C and that is without ramping up the fans but my Dell is sitting on a 200 mm Noctua fan which helps. Those are about 700 to 1000 MB/s and write only while on newer drives and with internal transfers you may be looking at much higher transfer speeds and you are at the same time reading and writing on the same drive which is a worst case scenario. May I ask why you are using RAID1? Seems like it is pretty limiting especially when you only have the capacity for two drives?

I shortly had one of these but with a small GPU, the RTX-A1000 and I did not do any test with the GPU for this. Apart from the MSI GT77 chassis it is the only chassis this generation that I would use as a workstation even though I have to say that the whole device looks rather tiny when I held it in my hand. I am saying hand as it is so small that one does not feel the need to hold it with two hands - these are getting too small these days for a flagship work station - I want bigger screens instead of a device as tiny as this one! here is what was in my unit: 12800HX 1920 x 1200 16:10 16" screen with almost identical screen height as a 17.3" 16:9 screen which is why I thought it MIGHT work out. RTX-A1000 Very easy to add/populate a number of sockets that are easily accessible, namely: 4 memory slots, all on one side, easy to service and maintain 4 regular non-proprietary or overpriced storage slots, all on one side, easy to service and maintain socketed WIFI card the battery seems to be screwed down a bit this time which is a step back from earlier models where it could be swapped in a few seconds and without a screwdriver Overall this is beautiful hardware and the 1920 x 1200 screen was nice, for me QHD is not really needed at this screen size. The insides can be accessed easier than for any competitor and for a quick look no screw has to be touched to open the bottom cover which is just great. Everything is well laid out and as modular as it gets this generation, imo the best overall build and accessibility in the industry. Plus it has some kind of vapor chamber heat sink that is working pretty well - if HP would let it. Also the surfaces are very good as they do not show finger prints nor are they made of some rubbery or otherwise delicate material like their competitors, this will look very good for a very long time. I also happen to like the look and feel of the HP keyboard, good typing and noise and responsiveness feel very good to me, that was with the classic non-rgb keyboard. Still I will never get used to the half height cursor keys that I consider extremely annoying and for me that is worse than anything that for example MSI does with their key rearrangement. I did not test the mouse functions as I use an external mouse or rather I used the trackpoint in a pinch that they have done away with - big mistake imo. Which brings me to what is making the HP unsuitable for me. Neither in Windows 10 nor Windows 11 could I solve these issues: no undervolting was possible no changing of multipliers no fans could be adjusted there are two stock fan modes and both are unacceptably bad Throttlestop and Intel XTU are working but due to the locked down processor only to adjust PL1 and PL2 and that is what I have been using. Sustained power can be up to 145 to 140 W for one run of CB R23 when all goes well and for longer times I could manage about 105 to 110W even though it could have been more as the fans would never really ramp up to full speed. As there is no full speed or high fan mode there is constant throttling as the fans run a bit faster, then when the temps get lower they run slower almost immediately and therefore the temps ramp up again and each time the CPU it throttling a bit more. Even with that limitation it can sustain 19.5K CB R23 over 10 minutes and when it is still cool it can go up to 21.5K even with stock fans and cooling, when warm (not hot) it may still go up to 20.5K but not more. Single core performance is in the 1780s and as multipliers cannot be adjusted it will not go higher even though in theory one could increase the multiplier to get closer to the 12900/12950HX processors. Apart from performance left on the table that seemingly is still better than what Dell has to offer so that would not be too bad for most uses but the fans are the real problem as they can only be adjusted in two ways: Normal mode where they stop from time to time or the mode where they run constantly with minimum settings that are too high. Both methods are annoying. The starting of the fans is really loud and happens very often. As they are super slow to respond to any added demand it can happen that the fans are not even switched on one third into a CB R23 run (or other demanding task I would guess) with some 140+ W going to the CPU! One can imagine how fast the temperatures go into the throttling zone with that behavior - always too little too late. Now introduce the fans "always on" option: This is not like the Dell 7760 or formerly the Zbook 17 G7 that have rather pleasant almost silent fan noise in their lowest setting and not like the Clevo X170KM-G that has a bit of a raspy uneven but ultimately very low starting fan setting but it is an annoying noise that is far too loud and somewhat uneven and high pitched. I doubt anybody would be happy with it and from the laptops I have heard it is closest to the MSI GE76 but worse and that one already annoyed me. With fans constantly on the lowest speed is just too high and even after a long waiting time and ridiculously low temperatures the fans are apparently not meant to spin any slower nor are they meant to spin higher and with a faster reaction time when it would be needed. I think HP claims they are controlled by artificial intelligence / machine learning but the machine seems to be learning very little and the overall result is rather one of artificial stupidity not intelligence. So if HP has a goal of protecting their hardware they are probably very successful but if you ask me they will not sell that many as the overall behavior is just annoying and their prices are too high, too. I contacted HP support about this severely gimped system with regard to fans, locked multipliers and overclocking/undervolting and they were completely clueless about what to do or how it would be possible to change any of this. Checking out the HP forums it became quite clear however that there is no really good way to control either fans or undervolt or adjust multipliers at least not in the open. Customers are not supposed to change anything as HP knows what is best for them seems to be the attitude even after multiple tries to get to the bottom of this including trying out indows 10 and Windows 11 as an operating system. Really too bad about this as without an active community like Dell has I would have had to spend countless hours trying to solve these issues and probably not successfully so I decided to return it. EDIT: My model it turns out did not have a vapor chamber so I would expect even better performance from the vapor chamber equipped models.

Will answer over in the other thread.

I think that Dell should work with some people from the outside and get some extensive advanced product testing done - the out of the box performance they have in this generation is insulting. That being said you describe the sad 17" workstation situation in a nutshell. MSI will be fine for people who get something new every two or three years but no 5 year warranty and after some time no parts / support any more. Also all BGA which is bad for out of warranty repairs and generally speaking a waste. And it looks rather peculiar and for better or for worse will stick out in a meeting that's for sure.

Is there a new model? I only see the one with the 12900H on their site with I believe 2 slots each for SSD and memory. The 12900H is limited to 64GB so 2 slots are enough anyway. One of the reasons the 7770 is so interesting is that Dell is the only classic workstation manufacturer with a 17" workstation in this generation.

I have the 7760 as my current daily driver and it is a mature design as you say - the culmination of a number of refinements over the years, the 7770 looks like more of a miss at the moment but I guess we shall see what improvements they can bring. That being said let me clear a few things up about the Zbook Fury 16 G9: It has 4 SSD slots and 4 standard memory slots - very nice and in that regard preferable to the 7770 and 7760 imo. It is extremely well laid out with superior vapor chamber cooling compared to what Dell has in this generation It is not chonky and looks about as refined as the 7760, except for the very silly looking big Z on the lid it also has very nice surfaces that do age very well I assume including the palm rest the bottom can be opened and closed without touching any screws and unfortunately: It is only available in 16" it had very bad software and software quirks when I tested it and it is a very locked down system but even with that crappy software I consistently managed to get over 20K Cinebench R23 and 21.5K tops with the 12800HX and the fans were not even spinning up properly and thereby sabotaging higher results If HP would put its mind to building a proper big workstation they could go all the way but from being in contact with them I can only assume that their asinine software will continue to stand in the way for people who do not want to work around it. Just the way their fans are working is a deal breaker for me. As for the CB23 score 26K is what can be achieved with a 12900/12950HX in a properly laid out system with some undervolting and tweaking, Here is the GT77 I checked out with some heavy undervolting, it "only" had the 12800HX: As you can see it also gets very hot but this was in unopened and sealed stock condition without any repasting, just some bios and Intel XTU adjustments so it may have a bit of potential left for either more stability with the same score or a higher score when the only goal is to somehow finish the run.

It is interesting that apparently nobody from Dell told him how to get more performance out of multiple 7770 - he should have turned to this thread instead 😄 He has a point about the power brick being somehow underpowered for a 12900HX / 3080 Ti combo but he did not follow through with measurements of how much power the 7770 really draws from the outlet. I recently tested a GT77 and in Time Spy it drew up to 260W and that was with the 12800HX and the 3070 Ti. I would not feel comfortable pulling that much with a 240W power supply and the 3080 Ti can be even more power hungry and supposedly may even be the 175W version which would mean the 240W power brick makes even less sense. So maybe one of the reasons that people are getting inconsistent and low scores with their systems is that the power bricks is a bottleneck in some situations? I would at least check actual power draw and if that gets close to the limit imposed by the brick I would check out one of those big old 330W power bricks that Dell seemingly is not even selling any more in the US store: https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/dell-power-adapter-330-watt-74mm-with-6-feet-power-cord/apd/332-1432/pc-accessories

Does that mean you are getting 125 + 25 vs 150 + 25 or is that 125 including turbo? Judging by your timespy benchmark it looks like 125 including turbo and I agree that it should be better, at least 12.5K should be possible even with a 150W TGP.

You will have a better start with just about any other solution (MSI, Lenovo, HP) when it comes to the cooling hardware but the software and this great community could mean that Dell will end up as number two even in CPU performance. The MSI CreatorPro X17 / GT77 chassis can get into the higher 25K regions without even opening it so there definitely is something left on the table there and I expect it to be able to crack 26K. Of course there is more to a workstation than a high Cinebench score but the Dell is rather unlikely to end up in top spot due to its inferior cooling solution even though you and others did a great job getting around that. Achieving a more than 50% increase over the benchmark as it is coming from the factory is crazy and both a testament to you and a testament to the carelessness with which Dell is throwing away performance. As for service and support, different options for screens and GPUs there is no contest as Dell has all of that covered much better, really a very good overall package and what I would recommend to people who want to keep their laptops for more than three years.

Well said and indeed I put the wink in there for a reason so congrats to people who a Micro Center close by and all the others are better off trying not to think about those stores too often 🙂

Sounds like another case of life being unfair. Or like something to consider when looking for a nice place to live 😉

I will say that by all accounts the Nvidia cards are still the rulers of the desktop GPU world and it is very impressive what they have accomplished. Because they have done so well in the desktop world it hurts even more that they brazenly continue with their disingenuous ways. We used to have TGP parity between laptops and desktops and now we get more like a 2.5:1 ratio instead, not to mention the other limitations of the mobile "4090" that I am sure will all come to light in due time. This has to be one of the biggest mislabelings ever in the industry when it comes to components. By now Nvidia could just admit that this is a completely different ballgame between mobile and desktop and rename their cards accordingly but then people may be unwilling to pay 4090 desktop dollars to get at best 4070 desktop performance or at least this is how things look like now. It would be great if AMD released a proper mobile card with at least a 250W TGP to kick some mobile green ass. Add a flagship DTR chassis and the AM5 socket for the CPU and I will gladly buy an all AMD DTR flagship.

Not from the US so not quite sure how this works. They have a relatively low cost plan where you can bring in a component that you bought from them and then you get to replace it with its successor? That kind of sounds too good to be true (and not very lucrative for Microcenter) so maybe I am missing something?

You will see less limiting in higher combined CPU and GPU loads but it will probably make a lot less of a difference with CPU heavy loads. In any case the top of the line GPU choices are quite costly so you'll save a lot of money going with the RTX A1000. And if you need more GPU perfomance then the sensible thing is to stop at the RTX 4500 which already is a high performance card but a lot less costly and less power hungry than the two top cards.

Yep, most probably the power limit. The 3080 Ti will draw so much power that there isn't that much left for the CPU. It is probably unreasonable to expect a regular workstation to excel with a combined CPU/GPU load when comparing it to systems that can allocate up to 250W combined for the GPU and CPU.

Possibly cost savings play a role but making these savings in the most expensive models that both Dell and MSI offer seems misguided. It is also possible that there is a certain arrogance where engineers think they can do what they always do and that a vapor chamber is not really needed in a bigger and/or thicker chassis. Whatever it is hopefully this will change.

It's all good, I thought it was kind of cool to get those benchmarks and then walk away as you want more sustained performance. Best sustained performance seems to be with the Asus 17" Strix vapor chamber model this year although I am not so sure how much of the performance is due to the vapor chamber and how much due to the completely unified heeatsink and liquid metal application. MSI GT77 and CreatorPro X17 seem to have at least similar overall cooling capability it seems but their heatsink is much less unified with much of their cooling capacity not used to the fullest degree for CPU heavy workloads and they do not have liquid metal either. So Asus is ticking all the boxes this generation with regard to cooling: - big enough cooling solution with vapor chamber - fully unified design for maximum performance of either CPU or GPU - liquid metal application from the factory - fans positioned at the two corners of the chassis for maximum air exchange with the outside About that 3DMark score: Which score, processor and benchmark? Couldn't find you there.

It seems that for both Dell and MSI in this generation the more sophisticated vapor chamber designs are relegated to thinner laptops with lesser specs where apparently manufacturers feel they are really needed due to these models being thinner and more compact. As if an HX CPU with a top of the line GPU wasn't reason enough to implement a vapor chamber!

MyPC8MyBrain: Gets fastest CB R23 of all members in this thread on his 7670 (!) and then returns it because he thinks It's not good enough 😄

This - we often get stupid tech with unnecessary hurdles when it comes to servicing and improving upon that tech - laptops are an excellent example, smartphones and tablets another one. We should get more capable tech AND better access to service/improve upon it, not the other way around. Just something simple like fan control in a laptop is a great example. Save for a fail safe where at some point fans ramp up and/or the hardware throttles down there is no reason why with almost every laptop manufacturer there is no proper option to control fans. Even something as simple as that has been relegated to the many things that the laptop manufacturers "decide" for their customers and it has been like that for a long time - not going to happen in a proper desktop PC!