3DMark 11 Physics Score https://hwbot.org/submission/5187366 | https://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/15562679

https://hwbot.org/submission/5187340 | https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/88212231

GPU Score: https://hwbot.org/submission/5187355 | https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/88212231

https://hwbot.org/submission/5187322_ | https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/88182771

https://hwbot.org/submission/5187315_ | https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/88209742

https://hwbot.org/submission/5187310 | https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/88209265

On 1/28/2023 at 1:12 AM, electrosoft said:

So I've been playing with my two MSI Liquid Suprim X 4090s this evening for 3-4hrs... the Best Buy one is definitely worse than the Newegg one I picked up and will be going back ASAP. I'm more than good with the Newegg one.

 

Best buy one = worse boost clocks, worse OC, worse memory OC by a mile, insane coil whine like my bud's Suprim X aircooled model (which at least boosts ~2790 stock).

 

I know it is only guaranteed to hit 2625mhz out of the box but wow.....Feels like my first KPE 3090 out of box clocks all over again on the Best Buy one. For stock, out of the box gaming they're both doing as a 4090 should do but the overclock difference and coil whine is very distinct.

 

Both cards w/ fans 100%, Slider to max (10% (!) ).

Both cards hitting MSI Vbios power limit of ~530w

 

12900k e cores are off, clocks synced to 5.3 all core.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New Egg: (No coil whine till >200fps and then very minor)

 

Out of box game clocks = 2820-2835

Max Mem +1500 (+1575 for benching with some mild artifacting. >+1575 = twinkle city and crash)

Max GPU +225

Max reported clock = 3060 w/ OC

Max board power draw = ~533w

Max temp = ~57c

Hot spot = ~73c

Mem = ~60c

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Best Buy: (Screaming banshee even at 100fps....holy terror at >200fps)

 

Out of box game clocks = 2700-2715 (?)

Max Mem +700 (+750 for benching with some mild artifacting. >+750 = twinkle city and crash)

Max GPU +150

Max reported clock = 2875 w/ OC

Max board power draw = ~533w

Max temp = ~58.5c

Hot spot = ~75c

Mem = ~62c

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Here is the Newegg card in action:

 

 

Does this unlock your voltage slider for the additional 100mV? If so, have you tested it to see if it works?

16 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

That's a huge stretch. This is referring to comparison between different implementations/designs/manufacturing processes. For instance, you could have a cryptominer ASIC designed using different components or implemented using  different fabrication processes etc. Here, we are talking about effectively fairly minute differences in quality between otherwise identical ICs due to the binning process which are all within specification tolerance, and again: GPUs are not ASICs in the first place so that really precludes "ASIC quality" from being applicable. That is just the key confusion here. 

That's the thing though. There is no confusion in the minds of the people having the conversation. Whether or not it was the best terminology to select is certainly open to debate or criticism, and it could be confusing to someone that is unfamiliar with the topic. It's too late to go back to 2012 or whenever that started and undo the use of the term now. If you referred to it in another way today, nobody would know what you are talking about because the precedent is already established.

If I am in Germany and say "nein" it sounds (phoenitically) like a number between eight and ten, but I am saying "no" (not "neun" the Germany word for nine, and pronouced almost the same) and it is only understood in the context of my response and knowledge of the language I am speaking. (I am being silly here, I know, and that is my intent.)

28 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

It could have been called anything, really. It could have been called the "Crapification Factor" or "GPU Trash Rating" LOL. In both of these cases, a lower score would be better than a higher score.

8 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

ASIC quality refers to the level of design and manufacturing processes used to produce an Application Specific Integrated Circuit (ASIC). In general, ASIC quality is assessed based on various factors such as design complexity, performance, reliability, power consumption, and manufacturing processes. Higher ASIC quality typically means better performance, lower power consumption, and greater reliability compared to lower-quality ASICs. The term "ASIC quality" is used to differentiate between different levels of ASIC design and manufacturing capabilities, and to help ensure that ASICs are suitable for their intended applications.

 

Makes sense to me, and is consistent with what I wrote in the previous post.

That definition actually seems to validate the logic in the relative use of the term as it relates to suitability for overclocking. While it may not have been the intended purpose of the manufacturer of the GPU, it might be the intended purpose of the purchaser.

It could have been called anything, really. It could have been called the "Crapification Factor" or "GPU Trash Rating" LOL. In both of these cases, a lower score would be better than a higher score.

5 minutes ago, ryan said:

? ? ?

 

like literally the whole world applies it to silicon quality?

It depends on the context of the conversation and the audience you are speaking to. To performance PC enthusiasts and gamers that are curious if their GPU is a winner or loser in the silicon lotter, yes, it is used in reference to that. When used in reference to microprocessor technology in general, for the most part it is agnostic to silicon quality and focused on design intent. 

https://www.abbreviationfinder.org/acronyms/asic.html#aim

I really like this guy's dry, sarcastic and corny sense of humor.

Frankenstein PC - Harvesting best parts from older Computers

Did I spend $20 on e-Waste?!

4 minutes ago, Papusan said:

https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/crypto-mining-rig-bitcoin-mining-calculator-asic-miner

Short for application-specific integrated circuit (ASIC), ASIC miners are designed to do one thing and one thing only — mine cryptocurrency. The first ASIC miner was released in 2012, and was about 200 times more powerful than the standard GPU miners of the time.

 

 

The latest GPU-Z 0.5.8 includes a new feature that displays the quality of the GPU (ASIC quality) of recent graphics cards (GeForce GTX 400, GTX 500 and Radeon HD 7800, HD 7900 series). 2012.01.22

 

What you prefer... The chicken or the egg?😁

In that context it almost makes sense. If someone bought a GPU in 2012 for nothing more than cryptomining, regardless of what it was made for by AMD or NVIDIA, it was being used in the role of an "ASIC device" by that person, and I do not think (haven't tried to figure out because I don't actually care) that ASIC mining devices were invented at that point.

40 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

What you're essentially saying is that if a sufficient mass of people in their millions repeat something, it becomes the the truth. "Flat Earth! Flat Earth!" 🙂 It doesn't matter what the millions say, it matters what the ones (sometimes very few) who know what they are talking about say. I haven't seen any expert quotes here (Jay is a very nice guy, but clearly not an IC domain expert). Here is one from a dude who's read the all the books and the Internet (OK probably not but close enough):

 

E: Is GPU an ASIC?

CGPT: No, a GPU (Graphics Processing Unit) is not an ASIC (Application-Specific Integrated Circuit). A GPU is designed for general-purpose computing and is capable of executing a wide range of tasks, including rendering graphics, video processing, and running simulations. An ASIC, on the other hand, is a type of integrated circuit that is specifically designed for a single task, such as mining cryptocurrency.

 

Not the most in-depth explanation, but the dude got the gist of it. Anyhow, having delivered the message and a few back and forths, I believe I've exhausted the ASIC topic here... It's been quite some time since I studied this stuff, probably getting everything the other way around now 😉

I totally agree that something that is repeated often and becomes a widespread belief does not make it true or accurate. In fact, we have more examples of that today than we can count, and more nonsense gets added to the list daily. If a scientist is a believer in nonsense, then it automatically gets validated as "science" LOL. And, anyone who doesn't drink the Kool-Aid is not following the science (how dare they question a scientist?) and should not be listened to.

What we do not know is if W1zzard chose ASIC as an acronym based on another sequence of words that has since taken on a different (or additional) meaning. If I had to guess, that seems plausible. When GPU ASIC scores were all the rage, I do not believe that ASIC devices were even a thing like they are today. I know cryptomining was not common and it became popular long after GPU-Z had ASIC scores. So, it may be a situation like what came first... the chicken or the egg? Who first used the acronym ASIC? I have no idea.

It is not uncommon for an acronym to be used in multiple ways that have unrelated meanings. Their meaning is determined in the context of where they are being used. I am not sure what the acronym stood for in the way it was used by W1zzard but it probably was not an "application-specific integrated circuit" judging based upon the context it was utilized for measuring silicon quality. At the time it was gaining popularity, nobody really cared what it stood for, they only cared what their GPU ASIC score was.

Examples: https://qr.ae/pGiM53

Quote

AP = access point, Asia-Pacific, accounts payable
ASP = application service provider, average selling price
CMO = chief marketing officer, contract marketing organization
DBA = database administrator, doing business as
DM = data mining, direct message
EA = East Asia, Electronic Arts
ESD = electrostatic discharge, electronic software distribution
GM = general manager, golden master, General Motors
HD = hard drive, high-definition
IE = information extraction, Microsoft Internet Explorer
IM = instant messaging, Internet marketing, input method
IP = intellectual property, Internet Protocol
IR = information retrieval, investor relations, infrared
KB = kilobyte, knowledge base
MS = manuscript, Master of Science, multiple sclerosis, Microsoft
MVP = Most Valuable Player/Professional, minimum viable product
NCR = numeric character reference, National Cash Register
NEA = National Endowment for the Arts, National Education Association
NIH = not invented here, National Institutes of Health
NPS = Net Promoter Score, U.S. National Park Service
PM = project manager, program manager, product manager, preventive maintenance
PMP = portable media player, Project Management Professional
PO = purchase order, portable object
POS = point of sale, part of speech
PR = public relations, Google PageRank
PS = postscript, PostScript, professional services
PV = page view, present value
QA = quality assurance, question answering
SCM = supply chain management, software configuration management
SD = standard definition, Secure Digital
SI = system integrator, Système international d'unités (metric system)
SL = source language, Second Life
SLA = service level agreement, second language acquisition
SM = service mark, social media
SME = subject matter expert, small and medium enterprise
SNA = social network analysis, Systems Network Architecture
SOC = Standard Occupational Classification, system on chip
TC = technical communication, text categorization, Traditional Chinese
TDD = telecommunications device for the deaf, test-driven development
TM = trademark, text mining, translation memory
VM = virtual machine, virtual memory
VOC = volatile organic compound, voice of the customer

38 minutes ago, ryan said:

jesus. I had no idea. it looks like asic quality is king, if you care about overclocking

That's why the Green Goblin blocks access to it now and it is not reported. It made it easier than they wanted it to be to identify how many GPUs were built with crappy silicon samples.

After all, it's none of our business whether or not we got our money's worth, or got screwed. Our job is to shut up and keep spending money.

46 minutes ago, Papusan said:

This is disgusting as well. From the EVGA forum. People buy legacy 980Ti  K|ngp|n cards and find the same as me.... nvidia screwed up. Better later than never I expect.  Could you please ask in the thread if some EVGA mods/reps have tried to force Nvidia to fix their disgusting screw up in their latest drivers? Because even EVGA washing their hands.  Link here.... https://forums.evga.com/FindPost/3587910

 

 

If Nvidia can do this without people notice it/don't bother.... Be you sure Pascal, Turing, Ampere will be next on the list. Then 4000 series. As long there is an option for limited voltage control for modern Nvidia graphics cards.... It will be a goner. Because Nvidia don't really want it.

I replied, but it appears tags do not work.

https://forums.evga.com/FindPost/3596294

45 minutes ago, Papusan said:

🤗🤗🤗

 

Geforce RTX 4090 VRM PCB water block list. Avoid Colorful for now if you want a custom WB. And nothing here for GALAX.

 

They have restrict rules.... Don't change thermal paste if you intend or need return it for repair within warranty perod. Be sure you use their own paste. Nice warranty for a card that cost +2500$

It seems their rules are as ugly and disgusting as their stupid-looking GPUs.

Predictability becomes more elusive with a sucky, half-assed OS like Windoze 10 or Winduhz 11. As soon as it starts doing its own thing, it is anyone's guess how that is going to turn out.

9 minutes ago, ryan said:

I honestly think LEGO computers will become a thing. they got rid of MXM and made overclocking basically automatic and therefore safe. its just greed fueling these trends. less risk to them= more money. people would wreck cards and return them and nvidia/amd/intel would lose money. its kinda like a food bank having to supply meat, expensive and when some of it goes bad they have to throw it out and people lose. so they do the obvious, stop giving out meat.

That is not real overclocking. It is allowing the CPU to behave normally based on a temperature regulated algorithm predetermined by the manufacturer. It is overclocking for limp-wristed pansies that whine about their turdbooks being too big, thick and heavy. These mama's boys are the target market though. They aren't smart enough to figure anything out on their own. It is easy to sell trash to them. All you have to do is get a shill on YouTube to say it is awesome.

31 minutes ago, ryan said:

yeah I used to overclock years ago, now I just benchmark casually with no clue as to what im doing. I don't get pascal up cards. too reliant on temps. I remember my 260m overvolting it and overclocking the crap out of it. I broke a few records with each gpu I bought but yeah those days are over as it seems more like a lottery. less skill more luck. and now the big question is? will nvidia and amd as well as intel snuff out this skill and make everything more like dumb blocks(lego-computers)>?

Pretty much. Sums it up well. Overclocking Intel CPUs is the only thing left that bears a healthy resemblance to normalcy, as long as you don't do the stupid TVB overclocking for idiot sheeple wusses thing. That is not normal and if it ever becomes normal I will want no part of it.

1 hour ago, Etern4l said:

 

The difference between an ASIC and standard IC parts can be a bit subtle, so I would excuse Jay there. Basically ASICs are custom chips (e.g. a Bitcoin miner, which can do nothing else), whereas ICs are standard, general-purpose parts. Despite what he said, CPUs and GPUs are not ASICs.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application-specific_integrated_circuit

 

https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/asic

 

In the case of GPUs it's more accurate to refer to IC quality, chip quality, silicon quality etc. 

He is not the one making things up. I do not know whose idea it was to start referring to it as ASIC quality. It is/was a real thing that some people cared about. Not remarkably different conceptually than an Asus ROG SP rating 

1 hour ago, ryan said:

quick question does anyone know how i can find my asic quality with my laptops 3060...gpuz doesnt seem to have it with the newest version..also i broke my record. 2100 barrier.

 

equates to less than this but I was getting artifacting

 

also worth mentioning I got my highest port royal score with stable clocks

 

 

i mean asic quality via gpuz eternal

 

 

Most modern GPUs do not report their ASIC quality. Open GPU-Z. Go to the Advanced tab. Change the drop-down menu to ASIC Quality. If it is not there, you are using a GPU that was designed after they started trying to keep trash bin silicon quality a secret. I don't know if it was Turing or Ampere when they started trying to keep the silicon quality hidden. Neither my 3060 Ti nor my 3090 KPE show the ASIC quality rating.

ASIC = Application Specific Integrated Circuit

Where is ASIC quality now?

2 hours ago, electrosoft said:

 

After testing my Newegg one, I was like, "this is not bad at all and it's quiet." I was expecting similar or better results with the Best Buy one and it is acting like a Trio. I actually did a search on poor 4090 memory OC to see if such low numbers were possible and apparently they are for memory OC on some duds to hit + 700-900 max on memory and 150ish on GPUs.

 

 

 

It does make one wonder what silicon quality is in the HOF 4090 for $2500+?

 

Looking at some reviews, even some Founders cards had problems hitting +1200 memory OC, MSI +1000 and even the mighty Strix 4090 with a monster memory OC of +2000 (max) was stable at +1750 and GPU +180 with it's 120% slider:

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-rtx-4090-rog-strix-oc-review/2

 

Then you have tech power up and their nifty little chart of sample OCs:

 

 

 

I definitely remember my KPE 3090 being average both in memory and GPU overclocking. It did hit the promised 2025 out of the box. It was right around 2040 I think. But my KPE 3090ti was a much better sample both GPU and memory OC on average. It boosted to ~2070-2085 and memory was definitely >=+1000.

I really can't complain about the memory on my 3090 KPE. I can run +1600 in benches and +1500 for extended gaming sessions. That is definitely better than average in that product generation.

I find myself wondering if the goofballs at MSI think they can get away with slightly lower silicon quality on the liquid cooled model due to lower temperatures compared to the Suprim X air cooled. They're selling them for roughly the same price with the air cooled version usually just a few bucks more. What I mean by that is after they are built the water cooling goes on the worse samples of the batch. There is somewhat of a bit of logic to that thought, but it should not be applied to a halo product. That would be something that an end user would do to extract a few more megahertz boost clock, not something that an OEM should be doing to help offset or compensate for a lower bin quality.

44 minutes ago, Papusan said:

This is almost as a defective product. Or just say what MSI is able to throw out. If this is what MSI say is a binned product and want premium on top. No thanks. But your Newegg SKU is more the normal and what to expect for binned products. Slightly better vram than what I had. But all in all... Disapontment products from Msi. And in line with my experience with MSI graphics cards. Thanks for the testing brother. This just confirm my feelings about MSI🙂

I seriously doubt that they are actually binning the core silicon. I doubt that any of them are, even if they say they are. None of them care enough about the products they sell or the people that buy them to do that, but they certainly don't mind pretending they do and lying about it. I could be wrong and I am open to being shown evidence that I am wrong, but otherwise I believe they are just lying if they say that. A binned product should exclude everything other than golden samples and let the average stuff go to the gamerkids that don't know, don't care, want cheap.

If they are binning them, what they are doing is identifying below average  trash samples and putting the garbage samples on their least expensive gamerpunk bottomfeeder GPUs and only using average or better on the Suprim X. That's binning, but not the right way. Even EVGA did not do it the right way. The right way would be to identify the top tier silicon samples, set them aside and reserve them exclusively for the halo product. When those chips run out, you don't make or sell any more of the halo product.

EVGA binned the 3090 Kingpin. They actually had felt tip marker numbers written on the silver rim around the GPU core. Mine sucks at core overclocking... super average. Not horrible, but nothing worth being excited about. But, it cost the same as the better samples that lucky winners received. The only benefit I got out of it was avoiding something below average. Because the core overclocking isn't well above average the product was a waste of my money and regret buying it for that reason only. Anyone that buys a halo product should be a lucky winner. That is what they paid extra for, and that's what they deserve. If I am honest, I have to admit that the memory overclocking is superior, and notably better than average. But, that by itself that isn't good enough. I expected both core and memory overclocking to be superior.

Brother @electrosofthaving two remarkably different Suprim X in his possession is evidence that they are not binning, or that their QC failed. Not sure which is true, or if maybe both are true; meaning that they are lying and have lousy QC.

13 hours ago, Tenoroon said:

So many happy birthdays, I gotta do one too!

Happy Birthday @Mr. Fox! 

I appreciate your assistance with the past 3 laptops I have owned. While I haven't been with this community too long, I believe your knowledge and experiences have helped many people throughout the years, and I can't wait to see what the future holds.

I am also looking forward to learning from you a bit more in the near future. I finally pulled the trigger on that P870TM, and my goal is to make it as good as possible. I feel quite obligated to do so; it's the last good laptop ever created lol, so I must end with a bang as my days of primarily needing a laptop are limited. It's been quite a ride starting with the Alienware and climbing my way up, even if I've been a few years too late for every laptop I have bought since.  I'm glad to know everything I do and feel honored to know that a large chunk of that knowledge has come from you, so thank you man! It really does mean a lot.

Thanks for the birthday wishes, Brother.

I have always enjoyed helping people and while I have not been involved with laptops for a long time I am happy to provide whatever tips and helpful information I can. Congratulations on the P870. I agree that it was the last good laptop made. I also still believe it is overall the best laptop ever made. Everything produced since then has been an overly compromised piece of garbage.  I had a lot of fun with laptops for a lot of years for sure. I can honestly say that I do not miss them at this point. That said, I wouldn't trade the good memories and experiences I had with any of my monsterbooks.

13 hours ago, tps3443 said:

Anyways, man I’m really getting in to the new Dead Space 2023!! Fantastic so far, and the 3090KP is just kicking tail in 2023 😂

 

YOU GUYS NEED TO GRAB IT ON STEAM!! 
 

Looks like a game I might like. Cool that it was released on my birthday. I generally don't buy games until they drop to around $20-$25 so I will be waiting for a while for that to happen. I liked the previous Dead Space games, but lost interest and quit playing them before I finished them.

27 minutes ago, ryan said:

happy birthday @Mr. Fox 60  years young

43 minutes ago, tps3443 said:

@Mr. Fox happy birthday! 

Thank you, Brothers @ryan and @tps3443.

1 hour ago, Reciever said:

Good, that means we got at least another 60 years of overclocking outta you, 70 if we fine tune the FSB. 

The way things are changing, I don't know if there will be anything left to overclock much longer. Seems like there is a push to turn PCs into little more than severely overpriced glorified DIY game consoles from both the hardware and OS side of things.