Mr. Fox

Price: $250.00 - Sold for $275 on eBay

Condition: Used for a few days, so like new

Warranty: Lifetime through manufacturer / none from seller

Reason for sale: This is a spare kit that I do not need. I am using generic modules with water cooling and don't want/need RGB

Payment: PayPal, Zelle

Item location: San Tan Valley, AZ

Shipping: Lower 48 US - First Class Package for free, or $5 USD if you want the package to be insured

International shipping: Actual cost plus any taxes, duties, VAT, etc. I am unable to estimate these costs.

Handling time: Next Business Day (I am on a business trip until this weekend)

Feedback: eBay Profile; OC.net MarketPlace

Specification: TeamGroup T-Force Delta RGB 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR5 6200 (PC5 49600)

These are built with SK Hynix M-die IC and are stable with tight timings up to 6800 MT/s with less than 1.500V.

https://www.newegg.com/team-32gb-288-pin-ddr5-sdram/p/N82E16820331744

2 hours ago, jaybee83 said:

 

see, with me being out of the desktop game for so long, this kinda stuff is invaluable info. on laptop u basically had two bios versions to deal with: stock and PremaMOD. and once u flash the latter, u wouldnt ever wanna go back anyways 😄 

That makes sense. Had you been a normal everyday misguided "newer is always better" laptop muppet chasing the latest BIOS "update" garbage you would have taken the same hit as every other beguiled victim in the sheeple herd.

9 hours ago, tps3443 said:

7% was large on something like a 7980XE too. We had several bios revisions for the X299 Dark motherboard. I tested every single one. I knew them all like the back of my hand. But older microcodes performed much faster usually about 7% faster in Cinebench and 3DMark physics test. But to utilize Resizable bar for newly released Ampere GPU’s, we were forced to use newer bios that all motherboard manufacturers started releasing. It was lame because you get better GPU performance at the cost of less CPU performance. I know some Asus X299 guys were making custom bios using the old microcode to work around this. 
 

But, it’s this type of stuff you find happening with all computer platforms. Newer bios may gimp your performance. 

There were also some BIOS mods on HWBOT with the CPU microcode removed completely. Everything worked fine for me on those BIOS mods without it. I also disable Intel ME in the EVGA BIOS. EVGA is the only BIOS I have identified with an option to disable Inel ME. I haven't found anything detrimental with the Intel ME disabled in the BIOS. Everything I can see functions normally when the Intel ME doesn't exist. We have been conditioned to believe both of those things are necessary or required and neither of them are.

You can also delete the CPU microcode for Intel and AMD that is part of Windows and get updated through Windows Updates. It is likewise not needed.

The intelligent approach to firmware updates is to ignore them unless it fixes something important that is broken without it. It is rare for that to be the case. I never identified enough of a benefit to Adjustable Bar support to qualify as important. In some circumstances it serves no useful purpose. The downside to emerging technology, like DDR5 architecture, is that improvements in firmware can be relevant to that element while being simultaneously detrimental because of the payload of performance-killing garbage bundled in the same firmware revision.

59 minutes ago, jaybee83 said:

7% performance difference just due to simple bios version difference? thats insane! 

This happens when people that are OCD about "security" are allowed to determine the fate of those that have no reason to care, and those that are willing to live with vulnerability in favor of better performance.

1 hour ago, tps3443 said:

Well, I hope my bios is updated to support new CPU’s. I feel like when I eventually power on this Unify-X Z690 with my 13900KF, it’s probably not gonna post at all. Maybe @Mr. Fox updated it. 😎
 

I doubt I’ll ever be benching any 12th Gen. So no worries there. I do hate being forced to run newer bios though. Especially from what I’ve seen on some platforms as high as like 7% faster performance just by using an older bios. 

I don't think there was a BIOS for 13th Gen when I sold it to you, but you can do the recovery flash procedure with the Unify-X with no CPU or RAM installed, same as EVGA and ASUS. You rename the file MSI.ROM and put it on a FAT or FAT32 formatted USB stick, then use the button on the rear I/O panel next to the designated BIOS flashing USB port.

I suspect it would still boot and run without an issue with the 12th Gen BIOS, but it might not have full support or total functionality until you flash it.

29 minutes ago, Papusan said:

Look at this disgusting mess. Asus say you can't downgrade. But the stupids at Microsoft who got the bioses from Asus will offer an downgrade. This is todays tech.... Whats the difference between stupid and retarded? Can they be both? 

They are similar and the outcome can be the same. I believe the former suggests the demonstration of a lack of good judgment and the latter refers to the absence of capacity to exercise good judgment or discern the difference, so yes... it could be both, but I think more often than not their bad decisions are deliberate and they know what they are doing is messed up. They don't care.

1 hour ago, Papusan said:

Asus prefer the Dell way. If you prefer older bios versions for benching older Cpu's then you are screwed if you update your firmware for 13th gen processors. When did Asus learn all the dirty tricks in the book from Dell? This comes on on top of forced bios updates with windows. Yep, Asus let Microsoft help them push out new buggy beata bios versions. Asus = Del. Can't be any worse than that. And EVGA is soon no options. What have we left?

 

Filth. Digital dung. The excuse given "to ensure better compatibility" is a blatant lie. What they meant to say was "to ensure we maintain the power to own you and your PC" because their wickedness and treachery is unlimited and far-reaching.. Totally a Dellish Nazi power play.

1 hour ago, aldarxt said:

Ye Old Benchmark Thread, Post it Here, So I am having a problem only on my m17xr4 3DMark compare results online I get this https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/80053025

results are hidden!!! I have used every version I could find, last 1 installed Futuremark 3DMark for Windows v2.22.7359 from techpowerup.com. This only happens on the m17xr4 and not any other PC. I like keeping bookmarks in my browser of my scores but on the m17xr4 I need to take screenshots. I even tried different browsers as default but get same results. I have never seen anyone with this problem.

It is in the benchmark settings/options page and is a local machine setting. Turn off the option to automatically hide results. If you sign in at 3DMark.com your submissions should be stored under the My Results page. You can see all or filter by benchmark.

If you go to a benchmark result online you will see buttons to hide/unhide and delete if you submitted it associated with your account rather than anonymously.

3 hours ago, jaybee83 said:

true. Asrock was out of the question right from the get go for me, alone judging by their childish behaviour in blacklisting reviewers like HUB / GN, as well as cheating and cheaping out on the lower end boards...

I scratched them off my list a long time ago. My first and last Chai Tea mobo cured me. I've blacklisted them in my mind. It's always possible that they can do something to earn their way off of that list, but right now I am not aware of a way. They deserve to be blacklisted if for no reason other than their warranty terms are unusually hostile toward customers.

1 hour ago, jaybee83 said:

boy am i glad that i opted for the beefiest AiO out there... and pimp it up with push/pull 6x Noctua IPPC 3000rpm fans 😛

in any case, Jay still hasnt tried or mentioned the option to switch off that automatic scaling to 95C. i dont think hes even aware of it...

He mentioned how worthless the ASROCK firmware is on the system available to him. Maybe the option is missing.

30 minutes ago, jaybee83 said:

nice write up! and i definitely learned from your posts regarding active cooling on ddr5, planning to add an extra fan just for the memory modules 🙂

Thank you. Makes me happy to know that information that I share gets put to good use with the people I care about.

Here is this... 

https://extremehw.net/all-reviews/sabrent-rocket-ddr5-16gb-u-dimm-review/

2 hours ago, tps3443 said:

UPDATE:
 

13900KF Pre-Ordered!! 
 

So freaking excited! What a deal for $629 that was. Honestly, I wanted the standard K to be totally honest. But, I’ll take a KF. 
 

 

This is my first Intel CPU Pre-order. 

1 hour ago, electrosoft said:

So we have @tps3443 going 13900kf....

@jaybee83 going 7950x and either 4090 or 7900...

 

And I'm sure @Talon will be getting a 13900k and a 4090....

 

I'll completely be enjoying living vicariously through y'all for Q4/Q1 🙂

 

 

58 minutes ago, Talon said:

13900K has been ordered from the Egg. I may also grab one from Microcenter on launch day to bin against. 
 

4090 is likely. 

I preordered from NewEgg as well... 13900K not KF. And, I got an email saying the product is delayed but my pre-order will remain in effect unless I choose to cancel it.

4090 is extremely unlikely. 4090 Ti is also extremely unlikely. An AMD GPU even far less likely. I don't really see much point in a GPU upgrade right now. Too much money for meaningless points on HWBOT. For now it remains to be seen. It will depend on my ability to exercise common sense and self-control. It may turn out that I demonstrate foolishness and stupidity once again.

44 minutes ago, jaybee83 said:

 

aaand done, actually went with ASUS on this one. i prefer 4 dimm slots since capacity is also a factor for work related stuff. ill still try to squeeze more Mhz out of the sticks, naturally 😛 

reason why i chose Asus over Gigabyte and MSI were sturdier VRMs, USB4 included, 10G LAN and overall more balanced package. the others always had something lacking and if possible i wanna keep this board until AM5 is EOL, so i dont mind paying more now. excited!

 

oh one more thing that convinced me to go Asus: they have this nifty feature implemented where u can automatically switch between stock boost algorithm for max single thread and manual all core OC for max multi thread performance. best of both worlds 🙂 

 

delid tool looks definitely interesting, will keep tabs on that. bare die frame not sure yet, so far im going with the AF II 420 AiO, so bare die would only be sensible if i switch to custom loop down the road.

ASUS definitely offer feature-packed options, but they have had a horrible track record of failures including a fire and killing a 100+ SP CPU during one of the failures. It is always with great fear and intrepidation I purchase anything from them. When everything goes welll they are outstanding. When you need their help, they suck. If it were not for their poor reliability and lousy warranty service they would be the best. But, most of their competitors offer equally lousy warranty service, so I can't single them out on that character flaw. What is most interesting about my experience is their flagship products are the only ones I have had reliability issues with. The Prime and Strix mobos have been very dependable, but less capable.

18 minutes ago, jaybee83 said:

7950X ordered 

 

now for the mobo....hmmmmm

It's got to be exciting. Motherboard is a tough one. With EVGA no longer in the game for AMD none of the acceptable options have respectable warranty support. Not to mention you'd probably be waiting for a year for the first parts to drop. EVGA is always painfully late product releases.

Probably should stick with ASUS as much as I truly hate to say that. Hopefully they'll have a good two slot DDR5 option like the Apex. 

Are you going to get a delid tool and bare die frame from der8auer?

That is how it should be. There is no place for being a gentleman in business. You do what is best for yourself, your company/employees and your customers, in that order. You do what is worst for your competition and do it deliberately.

Awesome. Congrats. Where did you get the A-die? Splave at HWBOT or somewhere else? I have been looking on eBay and not finding anything, and I am not willing to pay more than about $250 USD for a pair of 16GB sticks. 

What do the AIDA64 read/write/copy/latency numbers look like at 7200?

I have found M-die to typically cap out around 7000 as well with higher voltage, 6800 with less than 1.500V. 

24 minutes ago, jaybee83 said:

from their perspective its the other way around tho: that 95C is a set target to let the chip boost as much as possible to get the max performance out of a given cooling method. cpus becoming more and more like gpus with fluent boosting behaviour and set target temp. were still able to switch off that target and do manual tuning tho, so best of both worlds. always good to have options!

That is still going to be a performance-limiting factor, just as it is for GPUs. Not being hot enough to kill the chip doesn't mean it is ideal. They can say that it is OK all they want to, and change the firmware to let it run that hot without throttling, but it will shorten the life of the silicon and will limit overclocking headroom as a matter of natural consequence. Taking the right steps to make it run cooler has no downside to it no matter how they want to spin the narrative. To present it as somehow being "optimized" to be functionally ideal while running 95°C is like something out of an NVIDIA playbook that is facetious even if their supporters choose to believe it. 

Getting a CPU, GPU or memory to run cooler never has any downside to it, and the cooler you can get it the longer it will last and the better it will overclock. There is no headroom available at 95°C. It is too close to the thermal junction maximum. One of the videos posted earlier actually demonstrates the problem. You can barely push the envelope and it goes into thermal shutdown mode. If you lower the temps by 20°C by correcting the engineering defect with a delid you are in much better shape in terms of overclocking potential than you were leaving it stock. In Roman's example the CPU automatically boosted higher all by itself and pulled fewer watts by dropping the temperatures to ~70-75°C with a delid.

Edit: We see a similar example of this with DDR5. The manufacturer says is it "good" with 80°C temperatures. They ignore the fact that the memory starts throwing errors and the system becomes unstable at 45-50°C and you have to either lower the clock speed or lower the temperature to regain stability lost by higher temperatures.

17 minutes ago, jaybee83 said:

considering it made existing AM4 cooler (mostly) compatible with AM5 it was a good move. and for most consumers not really something they would lose a thought about. us freaks will at least now still have the option to further unleash the beast 🙂 

This is an area where they would do well to follow Intel's lead and stop worrying about silly people whining like bratty little girls about compatibility with old parts and just do whatever is best to make the new stuff work as well as possible. If it is not reasonably compatible because it can't be, it is better to focus on achieving the best outcome and let the chips fall where they may on the idea of re-using old parts. Making the IHS too thick to fill the gap to achieve the same z-height at the expense of the CPU running ridiculously hot is kind of silly. Saying 95°C is the new normal as an excuse is equally silly... and a disingenuous distraction from the fact that it is hotter than it should be, and that impairs performance.

45 minutes ago, Reciever said:

Going to be a lot of direct-die kits being sold for AM5 I imagine

That's good. There needs to be. It's good to see Roman is actually working on a delid tool for it. That IHS thickness wasn't very smart, but direct die is the best way to have good temps under any cirumstance.

3 hours ago, tps3443 said:

I try to keep a few hobbies alive. But cars are too expensive for me. Motorcycles are a little more reasonable, which is why I go that route. My mind set is, I can have super car like lambo or Ferrari performance for something that’s about $10,000+ brand new. But then of course upgrading it is also super expensive, because they too are restricted and gimped from the factory just like computer parts. We’ve got to reflash the ECU’s due to manufacturers literally neutering these poor engines stock fueling to maintain some new and very strict tree hugger Euro emissions which drastically hurts peak HP/TQ. Super Heavy steel exhaust systems with Catalytic converters and O2 sensors on machines that don’t actually have to pass emissions in my own state and numerous other states is also pretty stupid. Why do I want a catalytic converter and O2 sensor when it doesn’t even have to pass emissions? So far I’ve removed all of the factory exhaust on my current motorcycle it shaved 25 pounds and gained a lot of HP. The titanium headers and exhaust is also beautiful as it changes colors over time and gives a nice gold, blue, purple. It’s beautiful! If I could have a house built with titanium and carbon fiber I’d do it! LOL. One can dream! 

 

If you like guns, maybe consider getting in to 22LR pistols and suppressors. It’s a very cheap gateway in to SO MUCH fun. You can shoot in the back yard at 2AM if you like LOL. They have some suppressors now that read lower dB noise levels than dry firing the same gun with no ammo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I was raised in a household where firearm ownership was an essential way of life and as normal as breathing air. We always had a least a dozen different rifles in our gun display case, and we used them all, all the time. My younger brother is still into it in a big way. He owns several dozen rifles and pistols, some antiques he has restore and others modern. He custom manufactures firearms from raw materials in his home garage machine shop, and has his Class 3 dealer license. Up until my mid-20's I had all sorts of rifles and a few handguns. One of my favorites was a Ruger 10-22 with a folding stock, pistol grip, barrel shroud. I had both 30- and 50-round magazines for it and converted it to full auto. It was fun and cheap to enjoy. I typically ran 500 to 1000 round through it every weekend. We owned about 50 acres where I lived and we didn't have to find a place to shoot for fun or hunting. Military-style weapons were always our favorite and my brother is very much into sniper rifles and massive handguns, like 500 nitro. I will probably end up going with something from KelTec, but whatever I do it will be via private party sales so I don't end up on a government control freak gun confiscation list. When we started raising a family and living in the city, I lost interest (lack of use) and didn't have the time for it. I am not a hunter (or fisherman) and don't enjoy that aspect of it, and my brother is both of those things.

I can't own motorcycles like that because I do not have the self-control, or the desire to find self-control, to behave in a socially acceptable manner when I get on one of them. I find it difficult to enjoy them if I can run them wide open on the highway and hotrod them between traffic lights. The power and noise are addicting and it is a different world now than it was back then. Instead of getting a ticket, you might go to jail or get shot by a rookie cop that is scared you are strung out on drugs rather than just having fun. (I often ran my bikes and cars with open headers and even that has potential to get you in big trouble today.) As a teenager and young adult, I was constantly in trouble for bad (but very fun) behavior with my streetrods and motorcycles. Age doesn't cure that kind of sickness, and when you have it you don't want to be cured.

Part of the allure of high performance PC ownership for me has always been the fact that I can be as wild and crazy as I want to be and not incur fines, become uninsurable or go to jail for being wild and crazy.

2 hours ago, electrosoft said:

AMDs greatest contribution is forcing Intel and Nvidia to innovate and not hold back products and punish the market with trickled releases at cyclic inflated costs...

Yes, I totally agree with that. Anyone that doesn't recognize that as a contribution isn't paying attention. It is valuable to all, whether they purchase AMD products or not.

22 hours ago, jaybee83 said:

soooooo tell me: if you ever give up on PC hardware n benching as a hobby, what would be the next best thing? somehow i cant imagine @Mr. Fox doing pottery or gardening instead (especially in the arizona desert lulz). how about joining a motorcycle gang or maybe switch to desert buggies including tinkering with the gear yourself 😁 definitely something along the lines of a grease head hahaha

It is hard for me to imagine. It used to be cars and motorcycles before computers, but I honestly do not see that happening. For one, it is far too expensive and frivolous for me to entertain the idea. I was with them the way I am now with computers and I do not have the financial resources needed to do that on a level I would find scintillating.

Secondarily, I have mostly lost interest. In part, due to the way tree-huggers ruin everything with a modern hoax which has become their religion. They've poisoned the minds of our kids and their imaginary crisis has been embraced by millions of people that forego facts in favor of a cause to fill a godless void in their hearts.

A former passion that I would be more likely to devote a renewed passion for is guns. Here again, goofballs destroy everything desirable with their false religion. The viability of that endeavor remains in the hands of traitors holding public office and their church of misguided sheeple. If the woke  twenty-first century Ameri-Nazi agenda continues to erode our Constitutional way of life, that option will be off limits too.

53 minutes ago, electrosoft said:

I have such a sour taste in my mouth over those USB issues and AMD neutering Ageisa with subsequent releases for overclocking where I ended up just abandoning their neutered PBO and clock offsets and just went traditional for consistent clocks across the board so we will see.

Yes, same. They almost regained my confidence, but the foul-tasting Ryzen 9 ownership experience hasn't left my mouth yet in spite of proper oral hygiene, and it re-revealed the folly of my naturally optimistic and forgiving nature. I guess it is fortunate for all of us that forgiveness is never earned or deserved or we'd all be irreversibly hellbound.

The most dangerous part of it is how the Team Red fanboyz go out of their way to say nice things and pretend the engineering flaws and design defects are imaginary. PBO overclocking is a joke, but you'd think it was something special the way the Kool-Aid drinkers embraced it. It caused me to lose more respect for the fanboyz than it did AMD to be honest. Nothing they say can be accepted as true or accurate because they're impaired by their intoxication on the red Kool-Aid.

"Stupid is as stupid does."

- Forrest Gump

23 hours ago, electrosoft said:

Jufes continuing to dump all over DDR5 pushing A-die to 7600 vs tuned B-die 4100 for gaming....

 

"If you're a DDR5 fanboy or you bought the wrong product, I'm sorry."

"If you took advice from an extreme overclocker that don't play games or mainstream tech tubers that don't know how to tune machines, I'm sorry again."

 

Savage lol....

 

 

 

After I read your post I expected to find him on one of his childish, irrational, bipolar emo-Nazi potty-mouth meltdowns that have made it so difficult to respect him as a subject matter expert; but, this was a really good video and he communicated in a mostly-respectable way that made him seem like an authority with only an occassional unprofessional teenager-grade vulgar expression. The video is spot on. DDR5 is just another gimmick/scam designed to make money and stop consumers from reusing their old parts across so many generations that the hardware manufacturers can't get richer. DDR5 is to memory benchmarks an equivalent to what the relationship of RAM caching was to storage benchmarks... a blazing fast clock speed that is real, but doesn't get utilized for anything important other than memory benchmarks. There are going to some isolated examples where it does matter for something, somewhere, but gaming certainly is not one of them.

7 hours ago, johnksss said:

 

Hopefully this won't be another sucky enthusiast wannabe example of a cookie-cutter sheeple metachurch product that performs well stock, but sucks at overclocking. And, hopefully it won't have the same reliability/stability issues and USB malfunction problems like Ryzen 9. What excites me even more is the anticipation of what kind of answer Intel is going to have for it. It's wonderful having the force of competition in play here again. AMD's progress is a win for everyone, including people that won't ever buy their brand.

LMAO at opening remarks here...

"...they clock very, very, very high which is kind of exciting like the funny thing about clock speed is it doesn't directly translate into performance but who doesn't love looking at big numbers even if they don't necessarily mean anything like on Bulldozer CPUs..."

- Buildzoid

...or, like DDR5 memory, LOL.

21 hours ago, tps3443 said:

Nvidia needs to bring DLSS 3.0 to Ampere graphics cards. Make these GPU’s both have a fair shake against each other. I mean, they are selling them both! They have tons of Ampere GPU’s on their hands to sell along side love lace, why not give the people a reason to buy them! 

Short answer to why... because they're the Green Goblin and doing the right thing is not how they roll. It never has been... ever. But, as long as they have the most desirable products, they are licensed to be dishonest, shady and unfair with the people whose money keeps their wheels turning. They're going to price themselves out of a job though, unless stupidity continues to prevail when it comes to how people spend waste their money. There is always the remote possibility that common sense will prevail and people will say no with their wallet to the retarded pricing.

21 hours ago, Clamibot said:

Seems like it. Since I have a 2080 Super, I decided to try it out in Shadow Of The Tomb Raider. I'd say it does help boost framerates a bit, but at the cost of a little image blurriness. I'd rather the raytracing and tensor cores be removed and replaced with more CUDA cores. In addition, I'd like DLSS to not be proprietary tech.

 

I think the raytracing hype has faded a lot too. People are realizing that it only yields a small improvement in graphical fidelity while also costing a ton of extra performance over traditional rasterization techniques. At this point, the techniques we've developed around rasterized graphics have become so efficient that we can get near the same graphical fidelity as a fully raytraced scene at a fraction of the performance cost.

 

It's just better to fake effects rather than fully compute them if the object in question isn't interactive or dynamic. Visually, it's the same result to the user. When seeing showcases on new shiny tech like this in regards to games, the developer part of my brain is extremely disappointed with how much performance is wasted when comparable visuals could be achieved at a fraction of the performance cost. Just my mindset as a developer though. I always like extracting every bit of performance I can out of the applications I develop.

Yeah, I've never really understood the mentality behind any of it. When I am enjoying a game and it captures my interest it has little to do with photorealism or lifelike AI. It's because the game is fun and captivating and I am more in tune with the action than I  am being a weirdo about things that don't make the game more or less fun to play.

I might care more watching a movie or looking at photos if the image quality is poor resolution with washed out colors. I'd be more likely to notice in a scenario that has zero user interaction. I don't give a rat's butt about live gameplay streaming or watching other people play games, but if I were a spectator the lack of engagement and boredom might give me enough opportunity to notice minor anomalies in image quality. But, I think it wouldn't matter because there is a certain level of expectation that streamed video quality is naturally going to leave something to be desired.

21 hours ago, tps3443 said:

I’m looking at the 3090Ti in the 2nd chart showing 61fps avg in Cyberpunk 2077. This is 1440P, Psycho RT, DLSS2. That performance is not right. 

 

Below is a video I made. This should

help anyone with a 3090 that’s full overclocked. Yes, the 4090 is still a beast. But if I turn off DLSS it’s still in the 43-52 fps range. I’m gonna say my GPU full OC vs a stock 4090 is 35% rasterization improvement. “Which is very good”

 

It is the DLSS performance from the 4090 that is so incredible. Although, I don’t typically use DLSS much since I have the raw GPU power to go without. Cyberpunk 2077 was the only game that really needed DLSS. 
 

Anyways, this is my video. Take a look at the average frame rate. It’s really impressive. 

 

https://youtu.be/Tod5tN7myM8

Well, bear in my we have 3090 KPE video cards. The people that own peasant versions of a 3090 are going to be dealing with all sorts of deliberately fabricated stupidity that cripples performance.  Our GPUs are not castrated the way the rest of them are.

Without EVGA driving competition with regard to overclocking and raising voltage and power limits, I am expecting the castration to worsen. They were almost single-handedly responsible for enthusiasts having as little reason left to be enthusiastic as we had. I won't have a surprised look on my face if I can't find a reason going forward. Factor in the irrational environmentalist agenda that is ruining our lives in other areas, we will probably see an expansion of the emasculation to include removal of all of the man parts, and we will all be left with cookie-cutter pansy-boy gamer trash.