Mr. Fox

I think I forgot to mention... Given the unsavory trajectory of GPU pricing, I grabbed another 5080 on sale from Microcenter last week for $1100 and snagged the last one available. I put the Prime 5080 in the SFF living room build because the Gigabyte Windforce OC I snagged has a higher core voltage and crossbar clock and I want it in one of my preferred builds. That's still more than a 5080 should cost, but about $400 less than the asinine price most are selling for and it's not going to get better anytime soon. I rationalized spending less on something that I don't need right now versus paying an undetermined amount more later when I do need it. I also think it might be easier to source a waterblock for the Windforce that isn't selling for an idiotic price. I could only find one option for the Prime, and the price was totally unacceptable. Paying current 5090 prices is a fool's errand and I will have no part of it. Utterly insane and absolutely not worth it, even by a long stretch of the imagination. The price-to-performance math and logic simply does not work for 5090 at current prices.

They used the space to the right of the DIMM slots for a vertical NVMe slot and heatsink, which I am totally fine with. I like that a lot, same as DIMM.2 and the NVMe slot on the B850MPOWER next to the memory. But, it is goofy that they put just enough distance between the slots to make the Supercool block not work. The Apex has wider spacing than most as well, and the IceMan block is too narrow for the Apex. So, the Elite Duo X has even more space than the Apex. You don't notice it until you try to screw the block onto the DIMM jackets. You have to bend the modules toward one another to get the screws in, so that is not cool. I initially installed it and got to looking closer and did not feel comfortable with the visible amount of distortion. I tried using thicker thermal pads on right DIMM to shift the cold plate toward the left memory slot to balance it out and relieve the tension, but that was not enough to get them straight enough for me to feel comfortable with the installation being "safe" for the memory slots. (That thermal pad trick works fine on the Apex to use an IceMan block because the space is not as great. It's only about 0.75-1.0mm wider than normal spacing on the Apex.) Things would be better if all of the OEMs held to a standard on this.

I have had people (some not even noobs) argue with me and say things like "no, that's not the problem because my RAM is only reaching 65-70°C" and they often don't believe me that anything above about 40-45°C is "too hot" and will cause errors.

When Gigabyte scores a win it is usually pretty solid and respectable. They often do not, and they are masters of cheapness and engineering shortcuts. They are an example of a company (there are many) that doesn't learn from its mistakes. The X870E AORUS Master was a phenomenal motherboard and I mostly loved it. The firmware had some minor but glaring functionality omissions that they didn't care about. The one that I hated most was no ability to disable onboard WiFi and BT modules. For people that use them, not a big deal. For people like me that do not, being able to disable them is super important. I don't want crap that I don't use enabled and I deserve having the ability to disable it. Like many companies, they only care about what normies care about so they can sell them products and if you're not a normie you get to have whatever the normies are willing to put up with. Guess what? The Elite Duo X has no BIOS option to disable WiFi/BT. But, I can disable the wired ethernet device if I use WiFi. Bastards.

I am returning the Gigabyte Z890 AORUS Elite Duo X. It arrived today after a 5-day slow ride from Amazon in Baltimore and I have spent about 8 or 9 hours fighting it. Super nice motherboard, but something is bugged with the hardware or the firmware. When I first installed it, could not get it to POST normally with two RAM sticks. It would POST, restart and then hang with the DRAM debug LED illuminated. So, I swapped in another memory kit. Same thing. Cleared CMOS several times and nothing. I then got it to boot with one RAM stick, but Windows would freeze while loading. I tried to reflash the BIOS using the EZ-Flash button after renaming the BIOS file GIGABYTE.bin but the button would not do anything. Totally unresponsive. I finally got into the BIOS and the file was seen as "invalid ROM" by the BIOS. I moved the memory stick to the other slot and tried again, then it worked and I flashed the BIOS. After that it booted with both RAM sticks. Both memory kits booted fine. I turned it off, unplugged it, then plugged it in again. This time the EZ-Flash button worked and it seemed all good. Easily hit 8800 stable. I thought "OK, that was weird, but everything is fine now." NOT! I began working on tuning the CPU, but any change made to the D2D clock ratio other than leaving it set to "Auto" it would only boot to BIOS Safe Mode with the message that the BIOS settings were unstable. Another issue I encountered, even though it is a 2-DIMM board, the memory slots are spaced several millimeters further apart than the Apex and the Supercool direct touch RAM block would not work with it. I considered getting an ASROCK Taichi OCF, but don't really like the brand or how it looks. (I have hated all three ASROCK mobos I have owned in the past.) Ordered another Z890 Apex for $25 less than the OCF. It was $100 more than the Duo X, but I don't need any more drama. It will be worth the extra to keep my sanity. No more likely to drip on the GPU than the CPU block. I've never had a memory water block that leaked before. This story made the thought of getting the Taichi OCF an even more unattractive option. That, plus the fact that I have never actually cared for any ASROCK motherboard previously, including a Z370 Taichi and X870E Taichi.

OK... The decapitation was painless and the thermal improvement was even greater than my other 270K Plus (which was about 15°C). Using the same BIOS settings, more than 20°C cooler in Cinebench R23 versus stock solder and IHS. The IPC uplift with 270K Plus over 14th Gen Intel and AMD's finest is pretty insane. (Captured in the CPU-Z benchmark.)

I learned a lot about Ryzen by chasing overclocked benchmark scores. It is goofy in some ways compared to Intel. The same in other ways. Principles are the same. Clock is king and clocks need more voltage. Ryzen starts losing performance when it is voltage starved. It clock stretches but performs worse, maybe starts dropping IPC. TM5 (as well as Karhu and perhaps other tests) is also going to error out if your Curve Optimizer undervolt is too aggressive. Don't automatically blame it on the memory or a weak IMC. I'd recommend setting Curve Optimizer offsets to 0 when checking for memory stability, if all tests pass and you set your previous Curve Optimizer offsets and start having errors, you know immediately what needs to be addressed and it's not the memory overclock. You can use the SMU debug tool to test PBO CO offsets with Core Cycler in Windows, then apply the settings in the BIOS once you find the max stable negative offset. Best to do it per core. There can be a gigantic difference between cores. Perhaps contrary to popular belief, a core that can handle a deeper negative offset is not necessarily a good one. When I look at per core SP ratings and V/F curves, the better cores are already needing less voltage and the crappier cores need a deeper negative offset to match the voltage needs of the better cores.

The pleasure is mutual, brother. I am super excited for you and I can hardly wait for you to get the stuff in your hands. Having everything under water is going to be a real game-changer. I think my next purchase may need to be a block for the 5080 Prime if I can find one that isn't absurdly overpriced. I do not like anything being air cooled if I can avoid it and GPUs put off a ton of heat into a chassis.

Sold my 9950X and Mycro Pro to @damric on overclock.net. Now I have the B850MPOWER on standby for Zen 6 if that turns out nice. It's rocking the 4585PX for the meanwhile, along with the crappy V-Color dual rank turd RAM. I am so glad I snagged this 8400 memory kit and Supercool block on overclock.net back in March for $450 just to have on hand in my spare parts. It will pair well with the 270K Plus in the Z890 AORUS Elite Duo X. If you can even find it for sale it's a fortune. Super stupid - selling for $1500 on NewEgg now, LOL.

I ordered this as my second Z890 board. Price for a 2-DIMM is hard to beat. This is a LONG review and he actually does live memory overclocking and does a teardown on the board.

Sold to our beloved friend @Reciever

Sold to Brother @Reciever. A pleasure as always, friend. Thank you.

It never ceases to amaze me how much better temperatures are bare die.

I believe Brother @Papusan does Yeah, I sent the tools back already. Hopefully @Jor3lBR won't mind letting me borrow them again. If I sell the Apex components I will need to buy another Mycro Pro block as well. If that happens I may buy a GIGABYTE Z890 AORUS Elite Duo X to replace it and see how that fares. Looks like a good 2-DIMM option without having to pay an Apex tax to avoid having a 4-DIMM mess. It looks like Z890M (mATX) options with 2-DIMMs and a debug LED are essentially non-existent, which is very unfortunate. A memory cooling kit will definitely help. Even the legacy type with generic heatsinks and a waterblock bolted on top is a huge improvement and not that far behind a direct touch RAM block.

No worries, brother. Putting the needs and concerns of your family first and the ability to provide for them takes precedent over anything else and you are making a good/right choice in doing that. I would be disappointed if you allowed any kind of hobby or fetish to draw your attention away from that duty. I only offered it in case you were interested and able. Since you are a friend I wanted you to have first crack at the stuff based on our recent communications about the CPU and memory overclocking experience you have had with it. If your main use of the PC for pleasure is gaming there is no point in returning what you have or buying a 270K Plus CPU and Z890 mobo. AM5 is going to live quite a few more generations and what you have right now is way more than adequate for a world-class gaming experience. Superior overclocking capabilities using the highest end parts (like those you already have) is not of any remarkable value in the context of gaming. It would only be worthwhile for eking a little bit more life from an antiquated setup or marginally adequate hardware that stuggles with gaming workloads.

These parts are currently in my daily driver build. I may regret selling, but I could use the cash to fund another project. I am not "parting out" at this point, (so don't bother asking,) but willing to sell it all as a bundle. I really like this build and I am not desperate to sell, but asking a fair price on these super expensive components. Here is what is included: X870E Apex motherboard (includes box and all original accessories) 9950X3D2 CPU - Delidded (will include IHS and retail box) Buyer's Choice of: Thermal Grizzly IHS, Thermal Grizzly Mycro Pro DD block, or IceMan DD block G.SKILL Trident Z5 Neo 6000 C26 (2x16GB) Memory F5-8400J4052G24G 1.450V Supercool Computer Direct Touch Memory Cooler (will include stock RAM heatsinks) If you do not want a 9950X3D2 CPU for some reason, I have a decent 9950X that is delidded and also runs 8200 stable with tight timings and I will discount the price to reflect the cheaper CPU. (We can discuss that via PM.) Price: Asking $1800 including shipping and insurance to a US buyer in the lower 48. SOLD Item Location: San Tan Valley, AZ Shipping: As noted above. International Shipping: I will consider selling internationally but buyer will pay all costs associated with shipping outside the lower 48 states unless a shipping forwarding service is used (with a US address). Handling Time: I will take the system apart upon receipt of payment, so the following business day it will ship. Payment Options: PayPal Friends & Family or regular PayPal plus 5% to cover the fees (regular PayPal will let you use PayPal Credit or Pay-in-4 options) Condition: Used - excellent, near new Warranty: none from seller, mobo still has time left on ASUS warranty Feedback: eBay Profile; OC.net MarketPlace

Listed at oc.net: X870E Apex - 9950X3D2 - G.SKILL 6000 C26 - Plus Extras Bundle Listed here:

I sent him a PM asking for his PayPal. If he has not quietly sold it already I will buy it. Probably not a smart move, but most things we are passionate about produce behaviors that are not very intelligent. Too bad I already sent the delidder tool and heater back. This will drive me to sell the parts I had offered to @tps3443 to pay for it and fund the replacement motherboard, etc. I honestly have not had time to put either the delidded 270K or delidded 9950X3D2 through their paces to say definitive gains in performance were achieved, but the massive thermal improvements alone made it worth the effort in both cases. I've had too many competing interests consuming my time. I'm going to expect decent performance gains on the 270K. I'd not expect as much from AMD simply because things are so limited by design by AMD. But I would delid them both again in a heartbeat just for the thermal gains even if nothing changed on either one in terms of performance. Bare die is the only way to fly. I need you to build a custom loop and stop settling for an AIO, brother. Since he spent more than I am offering to sell him the parts for he could come out ahead moneywise and with a better and stronger system if he were to return what he bought and use the money to pay for it. But, maybe the return window already closed. No matter the situation, I respect the decision to say no for the reasons that he did. Priorities are always God, family, work, play... in that order... and the first two are hard to separate. If the last two get out of order everything falls apart.

You are being wise, and that's what all of us should be. Fantastic score and yes, crazy good silicon I think the 9950X3D2 works best for me on a BIOS released several months before the CPU was released. On one hand it kind of sucks that A$$zeus has burned most of their calories on maximizing performance using the G.SKILL Trident Z5 Neo 6000 CL26 part numbers but, on the other hand, if you own either of those kits it is awesome and you're happy that they have. This is using the A$$zeus 8000 BIOS profile. Fully tested... very fast and very stable. These are not my best scores, but they are close and I haven't spent any time tuning the memory or the CPU. Just click and run in my crazy hot Arizona home office with a 78°F ambient temperature.

@tps3443 let me know he is not able to obtain these items, so if anyone here is interested in grabbing it for $1600 let me know. If not I may list in the marketplace at oc.net for probably $1800. 9950X3D (delidded) IceMan Bare Die Block (or Thermal Grizzly Performance IHS - buyer choice) X870E Apex G.SKILL Trident Neo 6000 C26 32GB (2x16) 1.450V F5-8400J4052G24G Supercool Computer Direct Touch Memory Cooler kit

If I had not already purchased the 9950X3D2 I might have considered it, but 3x retail is too much even if it is an amazing silicon sample. It will be obsolete too soon to make it a smart buy. Kind of nutty when you think about it. No response from him yet. Crickets. I'm surprised that I didn't hear from him. I offered all of what I mentioned for $1600. You could not even buy the mobo and memory for that, not to mention all of the extras it would be like getting for free. Maybe he did not see my text message. Yeah, there is not much difference in anything except memory benchmarks to be brutally honest about it. A little bit, for sure. Not a lot. And, a little bit doesn't mean very much when it comes to gaming, and it won't mean the difference between winning or losing. A little bit really matters when you've barely got enough to make things work.

I made @tps3443 a crazy low offer on the 9950X3D2, X870E Apex, IceMan Direct Die block, G.SKILL 6000 CL26 RAM and Supercool Direct Touch RAM cooler. That CPU is a WHOLE lot better than the one he has. So is the motherboard and RAM for that matter. If he doesn't want it, if anyone here is interested I will let it go for the same utterly insane low price as a complete package. Ready to use, turnkey. Speaking of 6000 CL26, this is the best that the garbage V-Color dual rank trash kit is capable of doing. I spent about 5 hours yesterday with it installed in the SFF build and it just doesn't have much to offer. As the low clock speeds it is capable of it performs actually quite well, it just can't hit any clock speeds that are worth a darn. It is not even bootable at 6400 in 1:1... debug code 00 on every attempt. Great example why one should never judge a book by its cover. With EXPO specs like this kit has one would think it is a fantastic memory kit, but it really sucks unless you run it close to stock. As sucky as it is, it will be good enough for the SFF build since it is not going to get put through the benching meat grinder. It will have a mundane existence that is limited to the mediocrity of web browsing and 3D gaming.

I am making a little more progress. This dual v-cache CPU doesn't like being rag-dolled like my other CPUs. It is more sensitive. That's not a good thing, but it is good I am starting to better understand what it can tolerate, and when I treat it kinder and gentler it performs better.

@Reciever I don't know if we're experiencing another DDoS attack or what, but the forum has performed miserably all day. Very laggy and sometimes unresponsive and inaccessible.

Brand new clear tubing looks fantastic. The problem is it doesn't stay looking brand new. EPDM is definitely the way to go. I think brand new clear tubing looks nicer but EPDM looks good and looks exactly the same whether it is new or old and I think it is considerably more durable. Plasticizers and degradation are a non-issue. I can tell you right now the silicon sample on the core side of things is better than my 4585PX and 9950X. The cores need less voltage for a manual overclock at any given core ratio. The memory controller is weaker than both of them. It requires looser timings to run 8000. Cinebench scores are lower and some things actually feel like they are slower at equivalent clock speeds. There is a small latency penalty with 3D v-cached CPUs and I think these flaws are all inherent to 3D v-cached Ryzen CPUs. I haven't done any gaming with it yet but I think I'm going to find that I gained nothing and probably lost a little ground in terms of overclocking capabilities. As far 9950X3D2 samples are concerned, I think this one is probably better than average. I may find my opinion will change after I spend more time with it and find out what it likes and what it doesn't. I may not be doing what it likes yet. I absolutely do not like the 200 MHz lower PBO boost clock but if I can get the thing to do a substantially better manual overclock I might forgive that because I don't really like PBO anyway. I have already decided that the Core Ultra 270K Plus is better than anything AMD has for sale. It performs better than anything AMD sells right now and costs substantially less than AMD's closest equivalent product. I had to loosen tCL, tRCDWR/RD, tRP, tRAS and tRC to get it stable at 8000. It might do better with GDM enabled, but I don't really want to do that if I can help it.