electrosoft

He's not wrong on a few points. Same Node. Same tech basically. More cuda cores More voltage More memory It reminds me of Nvidia's 500 series a bit when we considered that hot and power hungry stretching the node. This is also why I said before I feel like a bit of Intel at play here and Raptorlake a touch. ---- I keep going back and forth. Still in that "Go big (5090) or go home (Used 7900xtx/9070XT/5070) mindset this time around. Do I want the absolute best performance? Am I ok with a lesser card? Tune in January 30th for the next exciting episode of, "As the tech turns." I like the uncertainty of what I am going to do in less than two weeks. 🙂 I'm eagerly awaiting the various reviews of the 5070, 5090 and 9070xt.

You mean next generation? 9070XT would be at best a side grade to your 7900XTX but will actually be less powerful if reports are correct. I'm tempted to just snag a used 7900XTX and call it a wrap depending on the 9070XT reviews.

Can you trade it in before launch day so you have a credit waiting? lol, that posting over on OC offering $780 for a Strix 4090.....

Nah, the 5090 is going to come in at 30-35% which is more than enough for me to pull the trigger if I disregard proper fiscal responsibility. If it turns out to be faster, woot! But all reports are leaning towards temper your expectations. That uplift is coming mainly from the cuda core uplift (which is about ~33%) and Nvidia opening up the bus and increasing memory frequency enough to properly feed them / that memory interface. The more I read up on the FE, the more I'm now leaning equally towards all three now with the FE and Suprim tied assuming the Suprim has the superior PCB design. Astral will be good, but I know that price is going to be outlandish. I will pull the trigger on whatever model presents itself and makes it into the basket and checks out. 🤣 4080 Super -> 5080 is an easier read since the bus is the same (256 bit), and you are getting ~5% uplift in CUDA cores but faster memory. It really comes down to the break even point between the cuda cores, memory bus and if the faster GDDR7 is fully being utilized to feed it but we know it is to a degree as the reported uplift is going to be right around 10-11%. All I know is at 4k, the gap between the 5080 and 5090 is going to be monstrous. I am expecting the 4090 to be faster than the 5080 by ~15-20% but the 5080 to still be a slight upgrade over the 4080 Super and using DLSS4 is that's your cup of tea. With AMD being non competitive and Nvidia entertaining a Titan again along with AI (!), I am not expecting a 5090ti variant. Plus the 5090 as-is is already pushing the 600w limit of the connector and sanity even taking into consideration PCIe power delivery. This node is being "Intel"'d a little bit methinks for the 5000 series. I have no idea what Nvidia is going to bring for the 6000 series but this is AMD's chance to do something....

4080 Super to even 4090 is a good boost, so extending that another 33% would make it a monster boost. Which laptop are you using for testing? VDD/VDDQ being limited to 1.1v will definitely keep you capped. Oddly (maybe this is just me), but I tend to focus more on secondary timings for AM5 than primary but both are important. I start with Trefi (due to heat and sensitivity) and work my way through secondary first. why? Dunno. I take things in swaths usually three settings at a time when able unless things work synergistically with each other like a few timings do. You can start with the traditional approach and it still works too for AM5. Before anything, I always keep my timings as loose as possible, pump up SA/SOC and see where the IMCs can go on both Intel and AMD. Find what is stable the most, then shave off voltage where able. Somewhere I end up striking a compromise which is usually a little less on the IMC/memory and tighter timings as a trade off. I am pushing for 2200/6600 but realistically, I know I'm going to end up at 2133/6400 1:1 on the 9800X3D. I was able to get the 14900KS running at 8600, but I settled for 8200 and much better timings with the TG 8200 sticks. As for WoW.... I've started some preliminary testing on the 4070 Super with these Crucial POS sticks as a baseline before I jettison them for the 48GB kit included and eventually the TG kit but Flight runs are basically capped to 99%+ because the 4070 Super just doesn't have the juice to keep up with the 14900KS or 9800X3D at all. I'm going to try some raids next but if I want to run some meaningful tests at 4k Ultra 10 RT on to get some meaningful separation, I'm going to need a 4090 again (no?) or a 5090 (yes?) 🙂 I will hesitantly give the 9800X3D some props because those "hitches" (dips) I would sporadically hit on FP runs on the 7800X3D/7950X3D were gone but I won't really know till I hit it with raids/PvP where they were nails on a chalk board. Make sure to give Orta a whirl out on AK this week to compare 4k Ultra 10 RT on to collect some data.

Looking like as predicted about a ~33% uplift from 4090 to 5090 and ~15% from 4080 to 5080 which would be about ~11-12% for the 4080 Super to the 5080. Rest of the comparisons are normal variants (non supers) vs 5000 series and if that is the case, the uplift, especially the 4070 Super to 5070 is going to be abysmal. If I had not sold my 4090 at this point, I might have held onto it. This will definitely NOT be a generational shock and awe like the 4090 over the 3090 but still 33% is nothing to scoff at..... https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-official-geforce-rtx-50-vs-rtx-40-benchmarks-15-to-33-performance-uplift-without-dlss-multi-frame-generation

Unless SP ranges have changed (which they may have), that's a really decent SP score for a 9950x. That's exactly what enthusiasts are doing ala Intel. They are binning for IMCs first and SP ratings second. That was my objective before even cracking the boxes on both 9800X3D and had the Amazon 9800X3D on order as a backup to test but I see 9800X3D supply is now catching up with demand. As for better fclk on single ccd, whew, tell that too my 7800X3D and 9800X3D! 🙂 My 7950X3D was the best of the three for fclk...but on average you may be right. My 7800X3D before could only do 2067 and could only do 6200 1:1 and my 7950X3D topped out at 2100 and topped out at 6200 1:1 also. My 7600x could do 2200and hit 6400. 6600 wouldn't post. First 9800X3D topped out at 2000 and couldn't do greater than 5200 stable. It was clearly a POS tested on 2x motherboards. It was an SP113 and it was pure garbage. This SP112 9800X3D so far has done 2133/6400 stable on pure auto settings and 2200 stable. Fatal Error on 2233 but 2200 is golden status and 2233 is unicorn status and would require an even more unicorn 6800 1:1 so I have 2133/6400 and I'm gunning for 2200/6600. This crucial memory is garbage for any type of decent OC. There is no headroom anywhere without it borking on TM5. In Crucial's defense, it performs EXACTLY as advertised stock no problem but it is a sub $100 USD kit sent for free eval so it becomes my new baseline testing kit that sits in the drawer. For it's price and placement I wasn't expecting anything meaningful for OC and I was not disappointed. I'm going to give the G.Skill 2x24GB 6400 kit that was part of this combo deal a whirl next but eventually my TG 8200 xtreem sticks will make their way over for some extended testing but I need my main rig now while I dial in the 9800X3D.

woot! Return window till Feb 1st. I can ride this 4070 Super to the wire! (wire = 28th). I'm still banking on my original list but I am always open to being persuaded. 🤣 "congrats...you saw yourself get owned and teabagged at 600fps....aren't you special!" --- Hopefully your mom is on the path to a speedy recover @johnksss

I would LOVE a 12 P-core only CPU for my Z790i lightning.... I watched this a few days ago and while it might be a problem it isn't the reason for the dip/chunk unfortunately. I was hoping he had some insight, but it is just afterburner power monitoring that is causing a problem whereas the problem I experienced on the 7800X3D/7950X3D was all on its own without any software running. 😞 ----- As for testing these Crucials, I know a proper trefi is a no go on them with these insanely cheap heatsinks. as soon as they hit ~60c+, they error out even at 32767. Pity as 65535 knocked off a nice ~5ns-6ns. 😞 I wish these companies made heatsinks like Teamgroup. Those things are monsters!

Doing some fclk testing and usually I drop down to ~5200, but decided to stick to 6000. 2200 pass TM5, but 2233 = Debug Fatal Error atm. This is still on iGPU. I won't get a chance to slap in the 4070 Super for a few days. Return ETA for the 4070 Super end of January. Think I'm going to start dialing in those Crucial sticks at 2133/6400 sweet spot which is where I will most likely end up for the final gaming mode for now so I can get some WoW testing in before I have to return the 4080 Super and wait to snag a 5090 or 5070/9070XT. I also think it is safe to cancel that other 9800X3D order on Amazon that will ship next later next week. The odds of scoring a better 9800X3D are slim to none methinks.

Same on settings at 4k 5080 will definitely be better than the 4080 Super if even only by 10-15% and it will have access to DLSS4 and other things Nvidia reserves for their current line up. Problem was potentially the 7900GRE. When testing a 7900XTX multiple times, running 4k Ultra 10 w/ RT on basically turned the 7900XTX into a 3080 performance wise. I had to keep RT off to get any decent performance uplift and that was with a 7900XTX. I can imagine the 7900GRE was probably performing much worse. Here was my original assessment of the 7900xtx for WoW when I reviewed the XFX 7900XTX a few years ago: ------- I had bandied about the idea of maybe getting a 7950HX3D laptop, but the X3D chunk on the desktop drove me away. I'll be curious to see if the 9950HX3D is any better but I am sure I'll get my own data sets in a few days when I start testing the 4070 Super on the 9800X3D here. Last trip I took, I used the NH55 w/ settings dialed down to 7 and it was silky smooth so that was good enough for me in the moment. I still wouldn't say no to a proper 18" behemoth though.

Nvidia will never rest again after the 6000 series fright. This cycle is shaping up exactly like before when AMD gave up during Turning and introduced a mid tier product based on their new RDNA technology in the 5700xt and it was GOOD for what it was but it was just a precursor for what was to come which was the 6000 line up and outside of RT basically, it was neck and neck with Nvidia all the way up to 4k even. This is *exactly* what you want. The same way AMD pushed Intel to keep being better instead of extending releases and stretching tired, old nodes. Nvidia knows AMD is constantly pushing themselves and todays darling can turn on a dime. 9000 series is going to be a good mid tier card, but this is setting the stage for their next gen and no way Nvidia is going to let AMD trump them or even get that close ever again. Even the 7000 series and market forces course corrected Nvidia this generation with the 9000 series incoming. Why else would Nvidia give MORE performance and LOWER prices on their mid tier cards? Biggest fear for buyers is Nvidia dropping a 5090ti but with rumors of a proper titan class card in the wind this time legitimately, AI-mania and AMD toast past the 5070ti, there is almost zero chance of that happening.

100% true @Papusan 😞 Still wish a company like Silicon Lottery would step up and do it with GPUs and sell them at tiers based on silicon and/or memory quality.

Agreed, even the 4070 Super is absolutely playable and acceptable within expectations. I know if I pick up a 5090, I can crank everything back up to Ultra 10 RT on and be good to go and even moreso with the 5090 and basically be ~100+ fps MIN everywhere including raids and some PvP but will sit at frame cap 144fps just about everywhere else with the 5090 twiddling its thumbs a lot of times because my 4090 spent a lot of time outdoors frame capped at 144fps yawning. I found the outdoor raids in TWW hit harder than the outdoor raids in 20th anniv content due to location and older assets overall. What settings do you use for D2D gaming in WoW? Can I ask what you found unappealing about the 7800X3D and 7945HX3D specifically in regards to not only games but elsewhere? I always value your insight. 5080 and especially 090 class cards do hold their value during the first 3-6 months inflated, relatively close mid cycle and then back to MSRP value (or slightly higher) end cycle. This is what I have experienced during Ampere and Ada. On your desktop, if you get a 5090, you will experience an uptick in performance just by the nature of the GPU itself and it will definitely be very tangible versus your 4080S considering the gap even between a 4080S and a 4090.

Let's see how this pans out:

Something like the Asrock Aqua 7900xtx but for the 5090 would be sweet to see. Gigabyte made a Waterforce model for the 6900xt and 3090 that was a true CL block. If a blocked card was to make it to market, it never happens at launch usually but down the road. Inno3D will have a pre-blocked 5090: https://www.inno3d.com/product/inno3d-geforce-rtx-5090-ichill-frostbite#product-images Hmmmm, because that 4m30s post time on the x870e Hero was atrocious (but at least they booted) even getting them to run then to turn around with the Crucial Pro ("Pro" giggle) 6400 sticks booted up in less than 20 seconds even at XMP. I just laughed and went "Ok, message received" and switched to the Crucials for now but I plan on yanking the TG 8200 Xtreem sticks I have on the z790i lightning and giving them a whirl in the Hero. In all honesty, using the 4070 Super to tide me over has been an eye opening wake up call even at 4k (albeit settings 7 RT off and raid GPU settings enabled). What I mean by this is in areas where player data is low, the GPU will sit at 100%. Even the 4090 sat at 100% in many of those areas but obviously the 4070 Super sits at 100% much more often, but as soon as you're in town in Dorngal or doing any type of raids and especially PvP, even my 4070 super will drop below 100% and it again becomes a CPU dependent issue. Of course with the 4090 the utilization drop was even more severe but seeing the 4070 Super drop down to 90% or even high 80% utilization lets me know there are areas in the game that the WoW engine just slaughters even a tuned 14900KS at 59/46/50 and those clocks stay locked everywhere. On the other hand, you will achieve an uplift overall just from the GPU power upgrade so let's say those areas where I am running setting 7 no RT at 4k and seeing gpu utilization drop to the low 90s or upper 80s and getting like 83fps? With a 4090 I would still be at 100+fps in those same areas along with even lower GPU utilization. So an upgrade will net you both worse utilization AND higher fps just from the brute power upgrade of the GPU itself. So I suspect slapping a 5090 in there will widen that chasm even more. You'll get better performance because the 5090 is the new monster but it will even moreso leave your CPU in the dust in highly CPU dependent areas. So enter the 9800X3D.... Once I finish somewhat tuning these Crucial sticks at 2133/6400 (the next tier sweet spot) on this 9800X3D, I plan on yanking my 4070 Super and running it comparing GPU utilization in Dorngal, Raids and general usage vs the 14900KS and seeing if I can close the gap on that utilization drop. I also want to check for the dreaded dip which was definitely present on my 7950X3D and 7800X3D on the x670e Carbon from time to time. I'm so used to fairly smooth raids now with the 14900KS it will stick out like a sore thumb. Thanks! This one is infinitely better. It crapped out 40 min into TM5 at 2167 but that is at pure stock settings and running on iGPU. I know with my 7600x on iGPU it topped out at 2133 but once I went dedicated and disabled iGPU it could do up to 2200 with a little vsoc luvin' so we will see but as it stands now, absolutely content with 2133/6400 1:1. 2200/6600 1:1 realistically would require buying a golden binned chip somewhere. I was reading up before hand the last few months on so many 9800X3D owners not being able to break 2100 and/or 6200 1:1 so I was fully ready for that along with some tuning required and failing so 2133/6400 out the box really on iGPU was a very pleasant surprise. Definitely going to need a forklift to keep that Suprim level! And I'm here for it. 🙂

I always have bad luck day one, but I've always been able to get what I want within a few months so I don't lose my mind or fret over it. In tech, as in life, I take a, "It will be what it is meant to be," and that makes life so much less stressful and fun. For Asus, 4090 was 1600 launch and Strix was 2000 so $400 difference....on paper. MSI 4090 Suprim was $1699 launch and liquid was $1729 launch so we will see how much parity stays in place or prices trend upward. Either way, prepare to sacrifice an organ. Can't really go by Newegg because they price gouge on the regular depending on demand. But in their defense they also give the best combo discounts on items when they need to move a glut of other products in tandem with high demand items. Best Buy is the proper gauge of proper MSRP pricing (along with the AIB websites). Launch day, I could always go camp out Microcenter since I have three of them while also keeping BB and NE open on my phone but I'm just not that hardcore... 🤣 Order of attack: ----------------------- FE Suprim air Astral Suprim Liquid ---------------------- If the Suprim PCB is superior swap Astral and Liquid. If Astral is superior, swap Astral and Air.

So far, this 9800X3D from NE looks to be a keeper. Passed 90min TM5 at XMP on these Crucial 6400 sticks at 2133/6400 no problem. So much better than that last 9800X3D which couldn't do anything over 2000 fclk, couldn't post with the A-die at all, and error'd out on TM5 all the way down to 5400 and was only stable at 5200. Of course the stock XMP timings on these crucial sticks are a dumpster fire.... For AIBs, you always have to remember that Nvidia's cost per GPU has a nice markup for profit when selling to AIBs then AIBs want a profit on top of that. Their profit margin per GPU is definitely going to be lower than Nvidia's. They just can't compete realistically in the $2k sphere and make a decent profit unlike Nvidia. I really like the engineering and approach of the 5090 FE. Compact size and you're right. By moving the PCIe connector off the main PCB and making it a daughterboard/external connector, if it cracks/breaks, the fix is much cheaper not only in warranty but out. It is an engineering beauty. What we need to see now is how the thermals are in this compact beauty. This feels like a response to AMD and their reference design that was always so compact and smaller than the rest of the AIBs and was the first choice for SFF builds which are gaining serious traction in the marketplace over the last few years. This also gives you some insight into my headspace. Both the smallest (FE) and one of the largest (Astral) to what might be even larger (Suprim air) are on the table for consideration. 🤣 Or we might be looking back on this time and giggling as I'm rocking a 9070xt or 5070(ti)....heh. Yeah looks like the Strix has been downgraded to 070 and below...the king is dead! Oh with your budget I'm sure you can snag any model to your liking. So Suprim or Astral are your go to models too? The Suprim looks to be an absolute chonker in the videos!

Yep, they release them in waves especially on BB so you might as well settle in for at least 3-5 hrs. I really had no problems with my x670e Carbon except the 60 second post. It did everything I asked of it and supported those A-die 2x32GB better than all three Asus boards I tried. I did have to RMA my original open box though when it completely died on me. Are you going to switch boards to a different make or ride out the Carbon? I just look at the 4090 market with a base price of $1600 and shift everything up by $400. If a card was $2000 (like a Strix), a similar card will be $2400 minimum. Suprim Liquid was $1730, so I'm expecting at least $2130 and wouldn't be surprised to see it at $2199.99. The wild card is the new top dog Astral cards from Asus. I expect them to be $2599.99. Toss in sales tax and that is ~2775.00. Even a $1999.99 card like the FE is going to be ~2132.49 after tax. For these outlandish prices, if I go 5090, I won't settle for a model I do not want and just pick up because that's all that is available. It will be an FE, Suprim or if I'm feeling incredibly stupid an Asus Astral.

Kudos to Asus for moving away from trying to auto install ArmoryCrate and now offering to install Asus DriverHub which is really just a service link to a webpage that makes installing and updating drivers very straight forward and easy without all the added bloat of ArmoryCrate if you go that route. Usually I just manually install the drivers to avoid AC, but I gave this a whirl (since this is just a test/tuning install that will eventually be nuked) and found their new approach actually acceptable. Now all they need to do is allow rudimentary RGB controls in the BIOS.....

Finally had time today to get the 9800X3D + x870e Crosshair Hero (or as @jaybee83 would call it "The Peasant Edition" 🤣) up and running in the test case. Unlike before, the A-die 2x32GB G.Skill sticks booted no problem even on the 303 BIOS (launch BIOS). Updated to 706 (below in the pic). One problem is it takes four and a half minutes to post and eventually start booting off the SSD. I actually timed it because it takes forever every time even at stock JEDEC. I swapped in a pair of Crucial 6400 sticks and the posted within 30 seconds. I even went in and set them to EXPO II as a quick test and again....30 seconds. Never had these types of issues with the G.skill sticks on my x670e Carbon like I have across now 3 Asus boards (B650, x670e, x870e) with 9800X3D but at least they post but I'm not going to fight with them. I'll just stick with the Crucial 6400 sticks for now while I get everything up and running for testing and tune them first along with the controller and go from there. SP112 but it makes no difference with the 9800X3D really. I have yet to see a 9800X3D that can't hit 5450+. SP113 I returned because of the bad memory controller hit it no problem while limping along at 5200 on the M-die 2x16GB memory for stability an unable to go over 2000 fclk. It comes down to the memory controller. That's all I care about. If it's decent, I'll keep it and cancel my Amazon order which is due in 10 days. If not, I'll roll the dice. As much as I like the Lian Li for testing, the AM4/5 mounting system is atrocious. Instead of a real mounting system like on Intel or even many other vendors that have you remove the AM4/5 stock clamps, they use a terrible side clamping mount for the stock brackets all AM4/5 motherboards ship with and tension screws to lock it into place.

I'm on the fence about this. If we look at it from a traditional raster perspective, then it is all software tomfoolery. But if we look at tensor cores and AI it is another way to generate frames vs the traditional method and they meet somewhere in the middle to give an overall boost to performance. The problem right now is the latency and image quality issues DLSS/FG presents that does admittedly keep improving each generation. *IF* Nvidia (and AMD and Intel) get to a point they can use upscaling and fg integrated with traditional raster and present an image quality and and latency on par with just traditional rendering techniques, that would sufficiently move the industry forward. For someone like you @Mr. Fox and anyone who benchmarks (present company included), that has to translate into standardized benchmarking and universal measurements where the hybrid approach becomes as ubiquitous as raster is today. Unfortunately that day is still far off. 😞 ---- But I do agree Nvidia, AMD and Intel need to present every scenario. I have no problems promoting DLSS and FG, but they also need to be truthful in pure raster performance. I remember the 4090 raster performance being bandied about because it was a significant uplift over the 3090. I guess because whispers keep pointing to a more "modest" uplift this cycle over the 4090 with the 5090 it isn't as front and center. As you trickle down the stack it looks like it is going to be even worse and maybe even a modest 10-15% for let's say the 5070 over the 4070 Super. It also makes sense why pricing stayed the same or even went down especially with the 9070xt reportedly on the heels of a 7900xtx but some pricing says it might come in at $600. That will definitely keep Nvidia honest in the mid market while AMD and Intel keep Nvidia honest in the entry market. Unfortunately they have absolutely no answer for the 5080 and especially the 5090 which even with a ~30% uplift just extends the Nvidia's lead even moreso.

I'll end up with one eventually for my MSI 1300AI_SuperDuper_Terminator_Matrix edition (we all know the naming is headed that way), but I'll run the tentacles for a bit at first.

I like that it looks much thicker than most of the other bigger laptops too so hopefully better cooling along with a 400w PSU! Asus gives you a *little* control over the UV in the BIOS on their gaming laptops. Nobody has approached MSI's level yet though outside of custom BIOSes. Hopefully Gigabyte or another steps up and even on a laptop chipset implements near desktop chipset controls like MSI.

I've lost count how many times my Wingoneer has saved my hide from laptops to GPUs and more....usually when I get, um "adventuresome"