Mr. Fox

So, basically building one system three ways and running test results for each (product review items - case, two air cooler, AIO - using one of my son's gaming PC guts) then followed by totally rebuild my system over from scratch in the O11 Dynamic XL EVO, my butt is dragging, LOL. I am totally beat. Just finished cleaning up the mess from the work, dusting, vacuuming and Swiffer-mopping the floor. Below is the build. I am still waiting for three more fans to go in the roof of the case, but otherwise totally done. The O11 Dynamic XL EVO is crazy nice. It's not as massive externally as the EVGA case that I loved, but internally it is more massive and probably the easiest case to build in ever. My son's system that I rebuilt (below) using the product review items turned out awesome. I will hold back any comments until the reviews are completed and the product embargo lifts, so I won't even say what brand this stuff is for now. My son is thrilled with it. While he had an AM5/7700X/DDR5 setup, it was air cooled and inside of an antique NZXT Phantom case. This works and looks so much better. Now I need to get him to stop buying Gigabyte garbage (mobo and GPU). His wife is an AMD fangirl and the mobo and CPU were a birthday gift for him in June. He was gaming on an AM3 setup with a Athlon CPU and DDR3 that were new when the case was new. The case was cooking his Ryzen CPU. This case will actually just about fit inside of the O11 XL, but it has plenty of room for his ATX mobo and AIO. The appendage on the backplate of his GPU is a huge heat sink. When I got finished with his build and started testing, I noticed the Gigabutt 3060 was burning up (105°C hotspot and 95°C core). I used 18 w/mK thermal pads and Honeywell phase change paste and it was still crazy hot (85°C core and 95°C hotspot). The backplate is plastic. So, I added thermal pads and mounted the big heat sink on back to give the heat another place to go. Plastic isn't a good thermal conductor, but it managed to take the temps down further in spite of the plastic backplate. Still hotter than it would be if it had been a product made by another company that actually knows a little bit about what they're doing, but a 15°C reduction from where it started. A weird observation about the AM5 CPU. Of course it runs stupid hot and we all knew that. AMD even said it is supposed to run 95°C, which seems crazy and extremely undesirable. As I switched among the coolers tested, they all had the same peak temperature, but the better cooling solutions allowed higher turbo speeds. It seems like AMD deliberately made 95°C the target temperature.

It's really sad to see "technology experts" reporting things from the perspective of mainstream consumers rather than the perspective of enthusiasts. While there is some truth to this article from the perspective of someone that simply presses a button to turn on their computer, it seems to ignore legitimate progress in areas that matter to enthusiasts. If I cared a great deal about stock performance I would rarely ever purchase anything, as I would have little reason to. Intel Core CPU Clock-for-Clock Benchmark Test Lack of Progress By Steven Walton October 26, 2023

Besides a barf bucket, don't forget to have a packet of these in your glovebox.

You took the words right out of my mouth. NVIDIA has been getting away with nonsense for so long it comes as no surprise for us to see similar questionable behaviors surfaced from AMD and Intel. There is a fine line between being in business to make a profit (applies to all businesses) and thriving and raking in massive profits because you function based on misrepresentation, manipulation, sleight of hand or otherwise shaft everyone that buys your products. It becomes sinister when they do it because they know they can get away with it only because the alternatives are more undesirable and the cure is worse than the disease.

Yeah, it's totally garbage no matter what platform you are running. Windows 10 is rubbish and Windows 11 is feces. But, that's what you get from stupid people that have their priorities all jacked up.

Same. But, it is hard to know how to interpret that SP rating in terms of how it ranks against other 14900K in the wild. Looks like +200 MHz bump compared to my better 13900KS. 5.8GHz on V/F curve on my better CPU is the same voltage as 6.0GHz on that sample. Speaking of SP ratings, BIOS 1402 started doing extra-stupid stuff on me, so I dropped back to v0904. My SP rating fell to under 100 with the E-core rating in the low 60s and the only way I could fix it was by flashing a different BIOS version. That 0904 firmware is the only BIOS that is truly good for me overall. I start hating the Apex on 1203, 1401 and 1402 because it is less stable and has idiotic random misbehavior.

Yeah, somebody replied on his YouTube video that seems to be a friend that understands English. Said they would report to him. I try to follow the Golden Rule and it usually works. I will give it a little more time. I actually already opened a case with PayPal, but told them my preference would be to receive the missing parts if the seller will send them. I guess we will see. If I do not get an affirmative response and a firm commitment with a tracking number I will contact PayPal on Monday and ask for a chargeback. Then I will spend half as much on the Bykski RAM cooling parts like I wish I had in the first place. They're not as fancy and effective as these, but they do a more than adequate job of cooling the memory for half the price.

I think this deadbeat is going to leave me high and dry. I was hoping he would come through like he said he would, but three weeks have passed and I have not received the missing parts. I hate to do it, but I am probably going to have to change my position and get a refund. I have no tolerance for losers that do not keep their word. @tps3443try these settings. 8200 with tighter timings is almost the same speeds at 8600 but latency is much lower.

I absolutely love mine. It is an excellent product. In case anyone missed it... Also, this is hot off the presses...

It is definitely worth looking into. It would not be the first time we have seen driver witchcraft from the Green Goblin. And, it seems like the new world order way of doing things. "What, you're not letting us steal your data? Well, take a hit on your gaming performance as a token of our appreciation for the unjust and self-centered denial of our right to collect your data, you icky person, you!" I will look into it when I have time to fiddle with some games. Since I love Quake 2 RTX I will start there since that is where you noticed it. I finally got around to delidding the SP112 13900KS I bought from the guy in Germany. Now I have to put my first 13900KS in the other system running the 13900K. Today I gave in and ordered Lian Li O11 Dynamic XL EVO. It has enough changes to it that I felt it was worth buying. It is larger and I felt the original XL was too small. The way the mobo tray is adjustable, up and down, and removable, along with the plates I can use to mount passthrough fittings for my external cooling setup was enough to get me to bite. You can actually take out the mobo and rear I/O panel as a complete unit and use it as an open bench, or install it inverted like the Dark Base Pro 901 (which I also love). I like all of the fancy and unique mechanical features that GamersNexus has ribbed them about. (Even Steve likes them, LOL.) I am going to put the Apex in that. I ordered black since that is my favorite. I thought about how nice the Apex would look in a white case, and put one in and out of my cart probably three times trying to make up my mind. The Apex is the first, and possibly the last, white PC component I will ever own and I think I would end up regretting a short-sighted decision based on how one motherboard might look inside of a case I plan to use for many years. I have no plans to deliberately purchase a white PC component and given a choice I will always choose black. The Galax HOF 4090 is the only part I would want in spite of its white color, but I would be putting a Bykski block on it anyhow.

That is my play PC. I also have my work computer that is wicked enough in its own rights. And, my Dell Precision turdbook. So, I was not without a PC, but I was so engrossed in what I was doing I didn't have time to use the other systems. Below is my work computer (Banshee in signature) in the opposite corner of this tiny room. Excuse the mess. I still haven't 100% finished cleaning up from the project.

Congrats @electrosoftthat is a sweet deal on the memory kit Brother @Raidermanblessed you with. So, I spent the ENTIRE weekend (literally) rebuilding my loop and integrating the 5 gallon tank and chiller. Got the tank re-insulated. I totally dismantled the MO-RA 360 and cleaned the fans (4 years of grime build-up... was a chore) meticulously with Clorox wipes and Q-tips, added two new 10-port fan hubs on each side. I was going to delid the 13900KS I got from Germany, but I am too spent, LOL. As of now, about 20 hours in total and 30 feet of clear tubing later. Even with the chilled water circulating through the radiator, my idle temps are between 9° and 15°C now as long as the fans are turned off. It took a LONG time to get 5 gallons of water chilled versus 15 to 20 minutes with the volume of the loop without the 5 gallon tank. I added a 200mm fan to the back of the chiller as a booster to its internal condenser fan and it made a notable difference in the amount of hot air getting pushed out of it. I could barely feel anything coming out with the internal fan and now hot air just pours out of this sucker. Now I need to snip the wires to those crazy ugly blue LEDs. When I redid the cooling lines this time I gave myself an extra 5 feet of length so I can roll the chiller out from under the desk (it is on a dolly) when I want to vacuum or sweep the floor.

Unfortunately, doing the right thing seems to be a completely foreign concept, especially in Chinese business culture. They don't care because they are not required to care. They are not held accountable and need to be punished, but they are not. If they were good companies run by good people, none of that would be necessary. They would do what is right because it is the right thing to do. But, they are fundamentally dishonest and untrustworthy. Yes. All of the above. It depends on what the glitch or bug is that causes the malfunction. Anecdotally, it seems like troubleshooting things is more difficult with newer releases of Windows 10 and Windows 11 because the information and bug details are suppressed by the OS. And, it could be the OS, the driver, or something else causing it. Overclocking instability in games, especially unstable memory overclocks, often seem to manifest for me by the game just crashing at launch or randomly closing with no visible error, or closing with an error that contains no useful information.

I agree with you 100%. I also do not believe any of the brands offer "great" warranty support. Nobody seems to be interested in providing the level of service that EVGA did. None of them seem to care enough or are honest enough to be bothered by customer experience. That doesn't seem to be on the list of priorities for any of them. To clarify my agreement, please note that I was careful with my wording when I said...

Is that a bug in ASROCK Timing Configurator showing your DDR5 in single channel mode instead of quad channel? I think Zotac is OK, especially if you are getting the flagship GPU. The AIRO is actually top notch in terms of build quality. But, I do agree with you and MSI and Galax are the only GPU brands that I believe can be taken seriously at this point. MSI could easily become the new EVGA/Kingpin masters of the universe if they put their minds to it. They would need to shed their nonsensical focus on gaming garbage for that product line to be successful. The Unify-X was a great example of the degree of excellence they are capable of when they focus on what matters most to overclockers.

It was that way with DDR4 as well, but not magnified to the same extent as DDR5. That may be partly due to architecture chages, and partly due to the simple fact the DDR5 is running MUCH, MUCH IGHER clock speeds than DDR4 could ever do. With DDR5 all it takes is changing one timing value by the least amount possible to go from stable to unstable, or even unbootable. Running DDR5 6000 is like child's play for mainstream baby-girl gamerkidz now, and that would have been an extremely rare and freakish anomaly to run DDR4 at that clock speed.

Yes, that is exactly how it makes me feel now. It doesn't matter anymore. You're going to end up owning a piece of trash, or best case scenario, you'll end up having a miserable and/or slow experience if you need warranty service. ASUS's extreme overclocking focused motherboards are very good (almost always have been) in terms of performance, but unreliable in terms of QC and failure rates, and their warranty service truly sucks. They are not a customer-centric company and their manner of doing business is fundamentally dishonest. (JayzTwoCents and GamersNexus have called them out recently for their suckiness, but it gets ignored by most of the TechTube shills.) EVGA often defied the wishes of NVIDIA with their FTW3 and Kingpin (formerly Classified) GPU designs and firmware unlocks. AMD also tried going Nazi control freak on them, so their first AMD motherboard was their last. One of their tech support people confided in me that AMD was worse than NVIDIA to work with, especially in terms of firmware and overclocking support. Evidently, they do not want the owners of their products to have freedom and autonomy to make their own decisions and EVGA presented a threat to their command and control ecosystem. I haven't heard if they struck a deal or that anything is officient yet, but some recent social media posts by Vince (Kingpin) suggest he may become part of MSI's overclocking efforts.

Indeed. I will never be as happy with my overclocking hobby as I used to be. Truly a devastating loss for the entire industry. They never represented a threat to other brands because they served mostly a niche market of overclocking enthusiasts, and they charged accordingly. But, the things they did went a long way toward keeping other players in the industry honest.

Since they no longer employ a firmware team, there is nobody on staff available to correct whatever is wrong with the Zotac vBIOS not playing nice with the EVGA firmware. Probably a very simple solution, but nobody available to fix it. This has happened with other motherboard brands and it required firmware tweaks. The issue is a black screen in the BIOS and something Zotac does differently in their vBIOS. In most cases it was caught early and fixed before it affected numerous owners of Zotac 4090 GPUs. The issue surfaced with 40-series Ada GPUs, which was coincidentally when EVGA decided they were tired of the political games and NVIDIA dictatorship. They only made 2 motherboards. Dark and Classified. Both received the same level of service and support. Top notch. The Classified motherboard were gears toward mainstream enthusiasts, no solely devoted to overclocking. 4-DIMM limitation, which are a common and universally undesirable Achilles Heel to all that care about memory overclocking. Both were expensive, but each for a differnt type of customer. Correct. And, as noted above, no expectation for further firmware support for Raptor Lake refresh or changes in the DDR5 evolution. I believe their exit from the GPU market is what ultimately destroyed their motherboard business and also leading to the dumbing down of the PSU business. GPUs were their initial claim to fame. Not everyone was willing to pay the price for an EVGA motherboard.

Yes and no. Yes only the Dark, never the Classified. Excluding HEDT platforms that go beyond quad channel memory, no to any 4-DIMM motherboard, regardless of brand, to be more precise. Yes to the FTW3 and Kingpin GPUs. But, all of it gone now. Yes to the best build quality, overclocking capabilities and best firmware. Head and shoulders above anything else. Kingpin, Luumi and CENS all contributed to making the Dark motherboard the best of the best, and untouchable. The Kingpin GPUs required no explanation. Yes to the avoidance of frumpy gamer garbage and extremely bloated UWP software filth being required for full functionality. Nothing for the kiddos, everything is secondary to overclocking. Yes to the best warranty and customer service available anywhere. They have been without a legitimate rival and no other brand has come close to matching them. Cross-shipped RMAs, no-questions-asked and hassle-free service. BIOS mods as simple as an email request, along with inclusion in the next public firmware release if you could show them why it was beneficial. I wish I could crossflash the EVGA BIOS to the Apex. Obviously can't do that, but I would if I could. Stupid features that don't matter are tucked away so they are not a distraction that nobody cares about that buys them. Anything that should be maxed out for maximum performance or disabled is maxed out and disabled by default, then hidden because there is no reason to care about it. They give you the option to downgrade or completely disable Intel ME (which is utterly worthless garbage and should not even exist). Downgrading or disabling Intel ME is not allowed by other brands. They have a built-in CPU stress test, tons of built-in high MHz memory overclocking profiles that work flawlessly for me and proven by the overclocking names mentioned above. Multiple versions (way more than ASUS) that are designed for 24/7 daily driver extreme memory OC stablity, LN2 options, etc. They have offered better CSM functionality for legacy OS support. And, a feature that I have used for years and severely miss not having besides the control over Intel ME cancer is the option to always show the boot priority menu at boot. Because I boot so many versions of Windows and Linux this feature is precious to me. No to the fact EVGA no longer manufactures and sells motherboards and GPUs. They're done where it mattered most now. For that reason, and with a heavy heart, I cannot recommend it to anyone. I honestly feel this is the harbinger of a very bleak future for overclocking enthusiasts. I think we are entering the last days of an era of freedom to do what you want to do with your PC because of the Nazi control freak mentality among the OEMs that remain. The god of overclocking motherboards and GPUs is dead now. So, sadly, no. 💔

As an owner of the Z790 Apex (non-Encore) I am curious if you are going to find a reason that it was worth spending another ~$700 and, if so, what the reason(s) might be. Please add more photos when you have a few minutes to spare. It is unfortunate that not every enthusiast mobo manufacturer provides a firmware environment as overclocking and user-friendly as the EVGA motherboards. Lots more options in the ASUS firmware that provide no usable value or purpose in terms of overclocking, but missing a few useful features that are found in the EVGA firmware.

I hope you can figure it out without too much rigmarole. I am not getting any air into my system. That is a lot of D5 pumps. I am not sure that there is a benefit to having that many, but the idea of it is awesome even if it doesn't provide a benefit. Get some of the insulation I used for the tank. It's pretty awesome stuff. I got the kind that is black on one side and silver on the other and put it on black-side out. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BQZ5R8TC I think I am going to wrap a layer of it around the tank inside of the chiller as well.

Amen! 💯

That is unfortunately true for many, and as soon as that becomes true for me I will stop caring about having a powerful, expensive computer. This is the reason I like them and if/when that is gone there is no longer any reason for me to care. The focus will shift to spending as close to zero as possible. And, I am not a technology enthusiast in general terms. My interest is limited to overclocking and high-end PCs only. In fact, there are many things that fall into the technology bucket that I either dislike or abhor. Smartphones, tablets and handheld devices, in particular, I despise.

As long as I can get my overclocking fetish satisfied, then I will tolerate it. If not, then I will choose something else as a hobby. I am not OK with the normalization of performance and "everyone gets the same trophy for participating" approach. Things are getting so dumbed down that it's fast becoming not very enjoyable. Nothing for an overclocking enthusiast to be enthusiastic about. I do want MOAR performance, but it needs to be substantially more than the 99% get that don't know how to overclock. If I can't do that because the product doesn't support it, or because it sucks at that, then I don't want the product. Owning it becomes pointless. I know Intel has that on their roadmap and I am not pleased by it. I'd much rather have a massive CPU with a huge slab of silicon in a monolithic die. It's easier to cool, performs better and less likely to have issues and performance impediments than something cobbled together simply to increase core count. I'd much prefer that they just keep making the CPU larger to accommodate the added cores. That being said, I think Intel is capable of executing on the idea more effectively and producing a better outcome, so I will see how it turns out before I toss the baby out with the bath water.