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9950X3D2 is insanely fast! Multithreaded is more or less the same as my w3175x probably a little bit faster. But, I play a few games that are not the most optimized like: Oblivion remastered, Ark Ascended, just to name a few.. And what a difference there is! It really has perked things up. I’m seeing double on my 1% lows in these CPU limited titles. Unfortunately I’m having another issue... I cannot get EXPO to boot at all. It worked one time on the very first boot. And do not know what happen. 😭 I cleared the bios after fiddling around with things. And now EXPO fails to post. None of the EXPO’s will work. Tried Expo I, II, Tweaked, etc. I have to run DDR5 4800 to get the system to load windows or work at all.. I have cleared the bios, unplugged everything. EXPO just refuses work. For now DDR5 4800 is working, so I’m running that. I’ll try to update the bios and see if that helps. EDIT: Found the issue. CPU mounting pressure. My waterblock nuts were popping off the threads under tension. I’m going to have to address this block mounting. For now it’s working though. This is a picture of the system. It has a big thick chubba HWlab GTR 480mm cooling the CPU and single D5. 😀 The CPU is really beyond fast in gaming. Words cannot really describe how fast it is lol 😂 I could notice it in Oblivion without a frame counter. 1% lows in Oblivion have doubled. I wasn’t expecting that. AVG fps is about +40% higher in CPU limited games. It is seriously an outstanding gaming CPU. 💀

Welcome to the club @Mr. Fox and I had a very similar problem actually with the Asus Z890 Strix and Intel B580 when testing my Acer B580 variant on it. Initially, I thought the card might be defective at one point. I kept having the GPU randomly go into recovery mode as listed under device manager. Let's call it Code 43 adjacent. I tested it on a pre-built HP Omen HP sent me to eval and it suddenly worked fine no problems so I ended up doing a few clean installs, same issue would just randomly pop up and tracked it down to Asus driver revisions. I ended up going with Intel and Gigabyte variants and the problem resolved itself. The Asus versions were so wonky that every time I went to install the Intel GPU drivers it kept trying to update the firmware which was already updated each and every time. Once I sorted out the drivers, the GPU driver install worked as it should.

I’ve seen some doing 5.9ghz on direct die. Seems to unleash the chips a bit.

Dang you got that rig up fast lol. I think with your cooling, you'll be able to push that chip pretty hard.

Now I am a dual-Apex predator... purple now. Dang,it feels good to have some blue back. I've got to figure out some of the tuning. A lot to re-learn, just like switch to AMD had a lot to learn. Very different than Raptor Lake and pre-Raptor. I'm pretty sure right now I am butchering things.

You are in our thoughts and prayers, brother. Are you getting enough sleep? I very rarely ever get the amount of sleep my body and brain need me to, but when I do it always lowers my blood pressure. I'm wondering if yours is lower in the morning because you were sleeping and not stressed out as much as you are when you are awake.

These are single rank sticks. I specifically bought these because they were Hynix A die 5.43.01. Hopefully they are alright OC wise.

Okay, I’m going to try that bios! And @electrosoft I may try another 9950X3D2. If I’m feeling up to it. Memory tuning is very fun. But I learned that it does not help much in real world gaming performance, I suppose IPC is the real king for high fps and pushing fast GPU’s. My Xeon w3175x is a memory performing beast. When I would run only 6x16GB (96GB total) I can do 1T stable, and this does like 172GB bandwidth and 45ns-46ns latency. And it just cannot hold up to anything modern with the words X3D even with a single stick of DDR5 4800 lol. It’s a powerful rig, and still did well in many titles especially those more uncommon “Well Optimized titles”. 😂😂😂 These X3D chips are ridiculous in gaming. I did not realize how many CPU limited games I do play. Almost everything is CPU limited with a 5090 Astral, even with 4K. Rust, Oblivion, Ark, blasting some crazy frame rates with 9950X3D2. @Mr. Fox Are you thinking my Dark Hero should also run 8000c34 just like your Apex can?

Yes, I am using PBO. It does clock down in R23 to around 5.4Ghz on 1 CCD, and 5.3Ghz on the other CCD. When I was referring to these running hot, I remember many people reporting these Ryzen chips just run like 95C or something lol. Or I remember reading something about they intentionally run and target warm temps like that? I want to go tinkering in this bios. But this motherboard is a PAIN. I may wait until I get this swapped out first. But yeah, the platform is excellent. Several games that I play have never ran well on anything. Ark Ascended, or Oblivion Remastered. And these games are constantly skipping and dropping GPU usage. And seeing this 9950X3D2 run those smoothly at crazy high frame rates is shocking to me.

Mine is SP118. I’m not really sure if it’s good or not good. That’s about 30c idle in bios. I have it running R23 doing 44.2K at only 225 watts. And 67c max. I thought these bad boys were supposed to run hot or something. 😎 I’m liking this AMD platform though. Quirks aside. It’s obliterating FAST. Being honest about it, I wasn’t really all that excited immediately after buying the 9950X3D2+Dark Hero and I had the boxes sitting under my couch in my office. But dang! After running the system, I am over joyed by this system.

Finally landed in Phoenix so I should be home in about an hour. LONG day. I arrived at Dulles at 12 noon EST.

This AMD 9950X3D2 is madness! Excellent platform. I’m having some board troubles with this open box Dark hero, but I’m happy with the platform overall.

I mean throwing in a $269 2TB Gen 4 NVME is better than some random 240mm AIO they usually try. NVME and DRAM are the modern day gold lol.

I have to drive past Microcenter on my 1 hour trek home from the airport at the end of each business trip. I have had to exercise a lot of self-restraint to not go by on the way home and pick one up, along with a Z890 motherboard. The only thing that has held me back is the motherboards that I think I would find suitable are stupid expensive. I'm headed home tomorrow night and I already was checking the Microcenter website last night before going to sleep to see if there was something that I couldn't live without in terms of motherboard options.

@Mr. Fox++++ Still no need for the new buggy OS called Windows 11. Microsoft Extends Free Windows 10 Security Updates for Consumers Until October 2027 Published 36 minutes ago by Hilbert Hagedoorn 3 Microsoft has announced an unexpected extension of Windows 10 support for consumers, confirming that free security updates will continue through October 12, 2027. The additional year is provided through the company's Extended Security Updates (ESU) program and is intended to give users more time to transition to Windows 11 or purchase compatible hardware

Guys! This deal is insane! It really makes it hard to cope with a $899.99 9950X3D2 right now. 🤨 The 270K Plus is $264.99 on Amazon. That is an insane value. This price for essentially a mix of 14900KS gaming performance and 285K multithreaded performance is unheard of.

Coming together. Trying to swap over nothing at all from my main build except for the 5090. In case I don’t really care for the platform. Im hoping it exceeds my expectations though, and if it does it’ll be going in to the big case .

Right now I'm kind of fumbling around trying to figure out what works best. Some voltage values seem lower than expected others seem much higher than I would have thought. I don't know what to do with the NPU stuff at this point. But I'm sure I'll figure it out. The hardest part of setting it up and finding drivers that actually worked. There were a lot of things that were code 43 in the Device Manager using the drivers provided by Asus and I ended up getting a lot of what I needed from Intel and the Microsoft Catalog as .cab files based on hardware ID. That was one of the more cumbersome Windows set up experiences that I've had for a while.

Right now it is on the test bench with a Lian Li 360 AIO. I'll probably order TG delid tool and heater and a direct die block for it in the next week or so.

Yeah this thing is funny, it likes those higher 1:1 speeds better than higher 1:2 speeds. Based on what I am reading, I am seeing that some of these IMC’s may like faster 1:1 speeds, while simultaneously NOT liking faster 1:2 speeds. 6600@1:1 is not actually stable. But I can try and see if I can get it stable, probably can’t. But maybe with voltage tuning, tuning timings etc. I was really pushing the FCLK, and I hear that also impacts your 1:1 max edge speeds stability as well. But I have been just gaming with running regular speeds. As far as easy stability goes like set and forget. 2167 fclk and 6000c26 @1.450v VDD, or 1.400 VDD with 32k tREFI works, with a 65,535 tREFI. This setup runs very easy without tuning voltages or anything. I may swap the CPU for another. But being honest. I don’t mind too much. I’m pretty much okay with how it performs even stock. If I return anything, I may try a 270K Plus as well! 😄

I will have to do more testing once I decide where the Z890 Apex is going to land and if decide that I am going to disturb the AMD builds. Depending on how the Intel testing goes, I anticipate the X870E taking the 4585PX from the B850MPOWER and going into the O11 Mini with the 5080, the Z890 Apex going into the O11 XL with the 5090 and the B850MPOWER taking the 9950X and going onto the test bench with my spare AIO and air-cooled memory. If the move back to Intel doesn't impress me the Z890 Apex will remain on the test bench, but that seems unlikely. I anticipate the change will be welcomed since I have plateaued on my current hardware and my interest is beginning to wane. If I like it, I will end up having to purchase a delid tool and heater and a Mycro block from TG because it is extremely unlikely that I will find contentment with anything less than bare die.

If you're able to do 6600 anything 1:1 that is the golden level for IMC compatibility. Most chips can't do 6600 with proper stress testing. For example, I can post 6600 but can't pass anything meaningful but 6400 is no problem. If you're able to somehow dial in 2200/6600 that is literally the golden standard of G2. You *might* have a not so great 8000+ kit on your hands but a really good 1:1 6400 dual rank set in your possession @Mr. Fox If you're able to do 2133/6400 on dual rank that is something major for my low end use case/testing and I would love to see some gaming and bandwidth/latency benchmarks for testing. I've had several dual rank 6000 kits that were trash for 8000 and couldn't hit 2133/6400 for any meaningful stress testing. Do they pass 2133/6400 dual rank Karhu and Aida64?

If you can run 6600 C28 in 1:1 mode that is already more than what most people can accomplish with the CPU, mobo and RAM kit they have. Many can't even run 6400 1:1 with the crummy silicon they were blessed with. Your CPU would have a very good IMC to do that, so I am not sure why you are having issues with 8000, 8200 or 8400 unless you are not using enough VDD/VDDQ/VDDIO. If you are able to run 6600 C28 1:1 then I doubt there is anything wrong with your motherboard. I'm glad you did not buy it. I think it would be fine for an average Joe type of gamerboy that just sets XMP/EXPO and moves on without bothering to actually tune anything for maximum performance. The plastic covers that look like a heatsink are a joke though. Gupsterg (oc.net member) discovered a V-COLOR kit he had purchased had plastic covers as well. It kind of pisses me off that they would even sell garbage like that. What a ripoff. I think the marketing info and specs not disclosing the dual rank design and plastic covers qualifies as a scam and I think they are very conveniently not disclosing what they know would make it a hard to sell product. I debated whether or not to just go ahead and install it anyway in my son-in-law's build with the other upgrade parts. The performance would have been fine for him, but I think the high temps could have been an issue with the plastic covers. I decided he was better off with the generic green 2x8GB Hynix A-die with nice aftermarket heatsinks for stability and reliability. Things get kind of toasty in his SFF build with an air-cooled GPU and air-cooled space-heater mounted on top of his CPU, both working together to create a toastly little hot box. He doesn't need 32GB of RAM. 16GB will handle anything he would throw at it just fine.

I almost bought that Vcolor kit! I thought it was suspiciously priced low. I suppose that’s why? Because it’s dual rank 16gigs? Have not tried the bios yet. But, I will soon. Being lazy. I am testing a 6600c28 though!

8000 2:1 with CL34 and other tight timings is slightly better than 6400 C30 and other tight timings. Bandwidth is higher and latency a bit lower. They are close enough to probably make no meaningful difference in experience, but based on my testing the idea that slower is better on AMD is a myth and running 6400 1:1 is pointless if your system is capable of running 8000 or higher with tight timings. Testing done by Blackbird PC Tech also confirms what I found: 8000 is slightly better (smoother and more consistent FPS) than 6400 for gaming, even with an X3D CPU, but not by a lot.

Did you try BIOS 9961 yet to see if that helps? Here are my older and tighter timings. I just reapplied them and ran a couple of benchmarks. They need to be loosened a bit to keep stability on AGESA 1.3.0.1 or newer. tRCDRD, tRP and tRC are too tight with newer AGESA, at least for my CPU. But, the read/write/copy and latency are better with the older BIOS even with the same timings and using "Normal" Bank Refresh. With "Mixed" Bank Refresh, performance degrades measurably. (Mixed is only a workaround for a security concern and I refuse to use it due to the performance hit.) If you are able to run 6600 C32 1:1 that is better than what most people can accomplish with their CPU, mobo and memory kits.

So I’m pushing 1:1 speeds to check IMC limit and fabric limits. I can run 2,167 fclk which seems to work well, and DDR5 6600c32 1:1. Right now I’m trying to dial down to C26 or maybe c28. The lil ram fan helps too lol!

Thanks to the kindness of a wonderful friend, I have a 270K Plus now. Thanks, brother. Z890 Apex is a day late. Should be here tomorrow.

I’m shocked they started doing dual rank 16GB DDR5 sticks lol. That’s so cheap of them! Lol. 😂 So these sticks should be good for 8000 at least is what I was thinking, I’m going to try a different bios. If that does not help me, then I may exchange the motherboard and CPU at the same time, the 9950X3D2 has pretty high SP’s on both CCD’s. Whatever I get after that, I’m just going to roll with it. 😎

I usually end up bouncing two off each other and sometimes more. It also helps flesh out your MB, but that Dark Hero should be able to do 8000 easy. I think it's rated up to 9600? That doesn't mean you couldn't receive a problematic board like many of us suffered with the Z890 Apex boards that were crapping out past 8400 for some reason. Like @Mr. Fox said, check what rank your sticks are. I tend to go with 2x24GB kits as they are primarily single rank and not problematic. X3D is pretty righteous especially when a game loves the cache but at 4k things get real close real fast. Yeah, I posted an analysis yesterday on his video: 270k is easily the best bang/buck Intel has brought to market in quite some time and that video backs up a few things I've been spewing especially cache saturation at higher resolutions so I posit with cache in play you can no longer arbitrarily use 1080p as a watermark for future performance metrics at higher resolutions with more powerful GPUs down the pipeline (IE 6090, 10070xt) Right now, if I was in the market for a banger gaming setup on a budget I would go 270k along with all the heavily discounted Z890 MBs on the market and a decent set of 8000 sticks and call it a wrap. DDR5 is a constant regardless if you go with AMD or Intel. I know him and Jufus were friends (maybe still are), but he goes after his testing methodology pretty hard along with others.

The Ryzen fanbois gamers are probably not going to like this. Starting from the meat of the video.

Sounds like a potential imc dud albeit you can't rule out the MB either.... I would snag another to compare it against for chip to chip check and to check the MB. Ditto on my first 9800X3D that couldn't do anything past 2000 fclk and 5600 on memory stable. I returned that and my next one is my current one. 2200 fclk and 6400 along with 8200. I haven't really pushed it past that though in light of the newer 9200 sticks. Might need to revisit that.

I don’t think 2200fclk works. But I haven’t tried really messing with it much either. I do see 2,167 fclk works at least. I feel like I really suck at messing with this thing lol. I saw DDR5 7600c34 posted up and works. But couldn’t get anymore. Need to loosen timing or add more VDD/VDDQ.

I cannot get any Gear 2 memory speeds beyond 6000 to run at all, just fails to post. What am I doing wrong? I have set these settings: Asynchronous mode fclk 2000 DDR5 6200/6400/6600/6800/7200/8000 etc. (I tried all these speeds slowly working down) bclk 1: 100.00Mhz bclk 2: Auto uclk Div1 mode=MEMCLK/2 loosest timings imaginable. I cannot get a post. CPU SOC Voltage: 1.200-1.260v tried these ranges. CPU VDDIO/IMC voltage 1.300-1.400v tried these ranges. @Mr. Fox EDIT: I got it!!! I just posted DDR5 7,000. Will slowly work up with some loose timings, then try to tighten. 2nd EDIT: I am having a hard time posting past 7,000 3rd EDIT: I GOT 7400c34 To post and train. 4th EDIT: I got 7600 posted. Still slowly working up in frequency.

I know it's not "in fasion" for AM5, but I would test a max static OC just for reference/capability and then carve out a PBO OC against it for comparison. I've done this with every AM4/AM5 CPU I've owned. I did it on my 5800x platform I ran and all subsequent 7800X3D/7950X3D/9800X3D platforms. And as @Mr. Fox referenced, this will definitely blast your temps and give you an "Intel like" experience OC'ing. SP118 is a solid average or slightly above average chip but check the IMC and see if it can do 2133/6400 at least and hopefully 2200/6400 on the G2 level then push for 8000+ and see what it can do. I've done that before. Bought something then sat on it for a week or so getting over buyers remorse and finally cracking it open. I JUST did that with my replacement iPad M5 13 2TB Wifi+Cell Nano Texture I picked up open box saving ~$1k. I left it on the table all week while I limped along on my slowly dying Ipad 12.9 M1 128GB peasant edition. 🤣 I told ya the switch from that capable but old Intel HEDT to X3D with that 5090 was going to change your life. 🤣 Well, maybe not that extreme, but you could tune up another 14900, 270k or X3D and any of them would best your soon to be old rig. The real sweet sauce is when you run across select titles that absolutely love that X3D cache and really sing.

You should be getting more than 44K in CBR23 at those clock speeds. Like 46.5 or 47K. This is with dynamic oc switching (MSI version of it) with my 4585PX. Here is with the Apex with DOS enabled.

I am glad you are enjoying it. If you are using PBO it won't get too hot because the voltage stays low and it clocks down to around 5.1 GHz all core in Cinebench and other all-core stress tests. If you use Dynamic OC Switcher or set a manual OC and manual voltage (necessary for fixed core clocks) it will run much hotter. If you set 55x on your preferred CCD and 54x on the lesser CCD with enough voltage to hold those clocks in Cinebench, your temps will go way up and you will have about a 48K or 49K score in Cinebench R23. PBO works great for gaming and light workloads. SP118 is about average (probably the most common SP rating) and a totally decent silicon sample that is worth keeping if it will run 2200 FCLK stable. As I mentioned before, the SP rating changes based on the CPU temperature at the time the BIOS is flashed. If you were running chilled water and flashed the BIOS and it hold SP118 that is good. If you got the CPU toasty (like a Cinebench 10 minute stress test) and immediately flashed the BIOS it might show 119 or even 120. The per core voltage shown on the same screen as the individual core SP ratings is the more reliable measurement on AMD because of the fluctuating SP ratings that vary based on temperature at the time of flashing.

Yeah that was kind of miserable day. I was in DC and Richmond all week. I had direct flights from Phoenix into Dulles and back. I had to return the rental car at noon to avoid adding an extra day. I already had to wait until 5:00 PM (expected) for my flight home, but the added 3-hour delay due to a mechanical issue made it that much worse. Had they not been direct non-stop 5 hour flights I might have ended up spending the night at the airport and being put on a standby due to missed connections. So, it could have turned out a lot worse than it did. Yes it'll be something new and fun to play with while we wait and see what happens with Nova and Zen 6. I expect the overall performance to be remarkably similar to my AMD builds. From all I have seen as an observer they trades blows and come out close to the same in most benchmarks, one randomly beating the other depending on the benchmark or game being run.

How did you end up with an 8hr layover? 8hr layover for a ~5hr flight = fun. What problems and what SP rating did you end up getting? I do like the look of the RGB panel on that Dark Hero though.... Something new and fun to play with. That was my logic to fill the time till Nova.... Yep, just checked and they're still $249.99.....

Um... uh. Ok. The NVMe was free. I guess that makes it ok.

If you have a local Microcenter, they're $249.99 atm...$237.49 with a Microcenter credit card. It's a crazy good processor. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Wireview Pro 2 in white looks slick..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Looping the Rooms as well as an English cover of it:

Oh I recognize that hand writing! 🤣 Fun times incoming @Mr. Fox Congratz! ^^^This For those who want to run G2 mode on AM5, they are really good sticks in what is 99% of AM5 chips out there that top out at 6400 but past that? Good luck. I'd be curious to see if dual rank at 6000-6400 nets you any better performance than single rank 6000-6400 with the same timings like old school used to do for us.... what's the model # if the sticks you have @Mr. Fox? I wouldn't exchange just yet (unless your return window is 15 days). I would get another CPU or MB first (or both) to really dial down on what is holding you back. If I had just stuck with that Apex and assumed it was not the problem, I would be all over the map. Luckily, I had two motherboards to test against it (Z890 AYW, Z890 Strix-A) and three sets of memory which let me know the Apex was the problem.

Looks like fun to me! I almost went with one of these. Multithreaded performance is really good on these.

What BIOS are you on? If you are on the latest it could also be causing you issues. A number of people (me included) saw reduced stability and performance. This is the best BIOS for me, and it is available for the Dark Hero as well. If you are on a newer BIOS you will need to flash using the renamed file and do the BIOS recovery with the button on the back of the I/O or the motherboard firmware will tell you it is too old. ROG CROSSHAIR X870E DARK HERO TEST BIOS 9961 based on 0701 Do not use older versions of cmo files, they may cause problems with agesa 1300a bios 1. Update AGESA version to 1.3.0.0a 2. Apply new odt rules for 16x2 6000cl26 1.4v and 1.45v kit Download

Okay! I will try that. Let me check the memory as well.

If you are using the latest BIOS you might want to test something older. I think the version numberings are the same on the Apex and Hero. 9961 is one of the best for memory and CPU overclocking. Some of the latest with newest AGESA are crappy and hinder CPU performance. (Edit: Not sure if older BIOS is compatible with 9950X3D2.) 6000 and 6400 being the "sweet spot" for AMD is a hold-over myth from the days that Ryzen motherboards couldn't handle 8000. (They made up that excuse rather than admit that memory overclocking sucked.) For the best gaming experience you should be targeting 8000 with tight timings and latency below 60ns. It doesn't matter a ton with X3D but the higher bandwidth does help with the "AM-Dip" that Jufus the Dufus talks about. Turn off GDM and set Bank Refresh mode to "Normal" (not mixed). Feel free to give these Dynamic OC Switcher and 8200 memory tuned settings a try and see if they will work for your CPU. Compare my V/F curve values (not necessarily the SP rating) to your CPU to see if the voltage needs are close to the same. ZenTimings shows all of the values that matter. Leave the ODTs on Auto. ASUS does a good job of setting correct resistance based on the detected memory modules. Should not need to mess with ODTs unless they are modules ASUS hasn't optimized for in their BIOS tweaks.

Ultimate shootout with bonus crapping on Jufus's testing methodology (and others): 4k gaming really shows any of the CPUs finely tuned are on average close to each other capping out even a 5090 and the 10 game average when tuned it is a wash overall except for those rare titles that love X3D enough to make a meaningful difference even at 4k. His results are basically in line with my testing even harking back to 7800X3D vs 13900KS and on but as always YMMV. I would say 1080p is a portend of future 4k potential removing the GPU as a potential bottleneck with more powerful GPUs coming down the pipeline but the problem is X3D cache saturation diminishes as resolution lowers so you can't just predict future gains using a more powerful GPU at higher resolutions (thus lowering or removing the GPU as a bottleneck) using 1080p straight forward... The overall king is now the 9950X3D2 taking into consideration everything. At 4k, I found it interesting the extra X3D on the other CCD actually helps level out some of the saturation deficiencies you can experience at such high resolutions vs the 9850X3D (further adding evidence to X3D saturation issues at higher resolutions). It's a pricey thang though..... ...either way bring on the bLLC! 270k is an absolute banger of a CPU and with the drastic cuts to MB pricing the real challenge is tracking down a set of decently priced 8000+ sticks either as sold or a 6000+ kit and OC'ing it. ------------------------------- Shockingly, those same two $5300 Gigabyte 5090 Infinity GPUs are still in stock at our local Microcenter.... As a matter of fact, they're still in stock at all 10 Microcenters within a 150 mile radius too.... 🤣

I’ll mess with it some more. When I enabled high priority it does hit 46K at least. Not sure if that helps, as I’m just using a stock retail Win11 OS. Anyways, I’m messing with ram tuning right now. I just let the chip run stock for the most part trying to memorize and learn AMD things. Good news is my ram booted right up at 6000 CL26-36-36-36-96@1.435V. My motherboard seems to be responding a little bit better as time has gone on. It might be okay after all. I see training and posting with high tREFI is much easier with more VDD/VDDQ voltage. So, like 6000c30 with 65K tREFI won’t post with 1.400v VDD/VDDQ. But it will post with 1.435v VDD/VDDQ. I know how DDR5 was with Intel, and it was heavily dependent on your IMC quality. Like one CPU may do 6000c30@1.35v and another CPU wants 6000c30@1.400v. That’s what I learned with Intel anyways, the CPU IMC quality determines how much voltage your DDR5 rams would need. This made it incredibly difficult to bin ram sticks in my opinion. Because an amazing IMC would make average DDR5 look like super sticks or something.

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