Mr. Fox

11 minutes ago, Papusan said:

Not sure what you have of parts. But let the Cpu get less priority (not important here). Use what you have and think more on the GPU part. Even a air coller help. Try fix you Port Roilale score. Cpu isn't important there.

That is the problem right now. I have no spare parts available that I could use for testing at the moment. I sold off lots of the spare parts collecting dust and used cash from those sales to help pay for new stuff I use daily.

Spare CPUs, motherboards, air coolers, RAM, waterblocks, etc. were sold or given away. I even built an entire desktop from spare parts and sold that. The only thing I had to acquire was a mid-tower case, and I got one for free from a relative that had no use for it.

Here is the system I built and sold using spare parts with the free case. I made $650 off of parts sitting in boxes in my closet that were not being used for anything.

2 minutes ago, ryan said:

thats what I thought the temps are the reason for my higher scores.....temps are down scores are up.....should I repaste? does that even make a difference

That is always true, especially for GPU. Even without overclocking, lower temps generally result in higher GPU core clocks.

If you are enjoying record-breaking results with your laptop, might be best to not "fix it" right now. It might not perform as well if you disturb things. I would say leave it alone if it is working well and hold off on changing anything until your results start trending in the opposite direction.

7 minutes ago, johnksss said:

I mean you are removing the CPU from the loop. Using just a heat sink or aio so the gpu can run free.

And if testing just the CPU then just slap on a basic GPU with no water block. Best to keep one of those laying around for trouble shooting. Once the problem is solved then you can put it back to looking all nice and cute. lol

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. In fact, that was part of my thought using the EK manifold since the CPU and GPU can flow independently (in parallel rather than series) and have totally unique flow rates. To test that I need to remove an internal plug from a chamber and relocate one QDC fitting to another port on the manifold, so that should be easy to do as soon as I take time to do it. Otherwise, I will have to spend money to buy parts I do not have just for testing. I may do that anyway. I can probably grab stuff from a yard sale or Craigslist cheap enough.

10 minutes ago, Papusan said:

Split the loop is smart for trouble shooting.

Yes, I agree. I need to primarily focus on the GPU core temps on chilled water, but I don't think I have the parts I need to isolate the CPU from the loop. It would not make any sense to test the GPU without chilled water because that is not an issue that needs to be resolved. It's not an overall issue either. It's only that I can't get it cold enough for higher GPU core clock when benching. It's perfectly fine for everything else other than that. And, there is a huge difference between the temperature of the chilled water in the loop and the GPU core. I think that is where it seems logical to start the witch hunt. Probably focusing first on the contact point and TIM sitting between the GPU block and the GPU core. There is roughly a 20-25°C delta there.

16 minutes ago, johnksss said:

You don't have a normal heat sink laying around? I keep a AIO and a heat sink just incase for stuff like this. Or something you can remove the screws from or has open holes so it just sits on the mounting bracket and you just tighten it down.

I don't have anything I can use on the GPU that I can think of. I could use the pump/block from the KPE AIO if you are finished using it, but I do not have a spare GPU water block and do not know how I could cool the GPU without the Hydro Copper block on it at the moment.

Or, did you mean leave only the GPU in the current loop and remove the CPU from the loop? I may have misunderstood what you meant. I had a CPU AIO as a spare part, but I used it in a PC build for one of my sons so I don't have that available. And, I no longer have a CPU air cooler. I got rid of the one I had when I sold off some stuff that was just taking up space in my crowded little office.

13 minutes ago, Talon said:

 

AMD has some serious ground to make up with Zen 4. 

And... not only performance deficits to contend with, but also a general lack of stability and reliability that needs to be fixed. The WHEA errors and USB drop-out issue are not things I am likely to forgive and forget for a very long time. A system that produces nice benchmarks scores loses a lot of its sparkle when it is unreliable and frustrating to deal with for normal everyday use. The 5950X and Crosshair experience was my "21st Century Edsel" in the digital realm. 

1 minute ago, johnksss said:

You could also try just cooling the gpu by itself and see what happens.....

Then comeback around and remount the block on it.

That's a good idea, but I don't think I have the parts I would need to test that.

17 minutes ago, johnksss said:

I totally understand. Not a problem there.

But going by your higher over all temps. CPU and GPU...From my experience means the water is not flowing fast enough through the system. Causes range from filters being clogged. CPU and or GPU blocks are blocked internally slowing down the flow of water.

 

I thought about the manifold idea as well and was going to grab a y adapter version of a manifold to test the theory, but did not get around to doing it yet.

What is puzzling about it is everything is freshly cleaned (filters, blocks, etc.) and now the temps are higher, particularly on the GPU. I can't really say for sure on the CPU because that is new and I have very little to compare with before/after. And, the loop flow rate is higher because of everything being fresly cleaned and because I reduced the QDC fittings restrictions when I redid the loop structure. It is about 70 L/H higher than it was before, yet it did not help anything that I can tell. But, the temps went the other direction coincidental to cleaning the Hydro Copper block. That happened before I restructured the loop and I think that is where I need to start the investigation. My guess is something with the mounting of the block to the GPU might not be ideal. That is only a guess right now though. There should not be a huge delta between the water temperatures and core temperatures if my logic is correct. If that is an accurate statement, it seems to point to mounting of the GPU block.

Edit: It is also possible that using the Fujipoly pad on the entire back plate is affecting core temps negatively by "normalizing" the heat over the whole GPU. Sure, the memory might be 20°C cooler now, but it might be due to the memory forcing some of its heat onto the GPU core because now it has a pathway or conduit to do that which did not exist before.

45 minutes ago, johnksss said:

And the flow rate slows down when getting colder not go faster... Not sure how yours is working in reverse?

 

Or

 

I could be totally wrong and totally disregard. 😂

Maybe I said something in a way that was unclear, but I have not noticed any difference in flow rate based on temperature. It does not seem to vary by a lot. By that I mean it is not different today than yesterday, only that watching the meter over the course of a minute it will change up and down every few seconds and somewhere in the middle is the average and there isn't a big difference between the high/low/average. It is maybe just a little bit lower using anti-freeze than just straight distilled water, but not enough that I could quantify it with a number. I think that is due to the water being lower viscosity.

One thing I am going to experiment with (haven't had time) is how using the EK manifold might improve flow rate through the GPU so it is not dependent on the volume of water that can move through the CPU. They could function independently and not have one affect the other. It won't change the flow rate of the loop necessarily, but if it is harder to move water through the CPU block, the GPU won't be starved because it can flow through both of them independently and simultaneously. I hope that makes sense. I don't have the manifold set up that way at the moment, but I plan to test the theory and compare both ways.

27 minutes ago, johnksss said:

 

Short answer....your loop.

Didn't you get like 55K gpu score with your 5950X?

Yes, but that was before I took it apart and cleaned the trash out of the Hydro Copper. GPU core is almost always above 40°C under load now. I have even seen it get into the high 50s, but usually in the low to mid 40s under load, in the low to mid 10s at idle. It used to drop into the single digits and stayed in the teens under load.

The loop shows water temperature between 14-20°C and a flow rate between 190-220 L/H. The temperature and flow rate measurements are taken at the return line side of the loop, after having already passed through the CPU and GPU. Looking at it right now, without the chiller being used since last night, it is hovering around 30-31°C and 200-205 L/H flow rate.

21 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

I did get my best ever Time Spy and Fire Strike runs in last night, but Port Royal stays in the 15.5K range due to the limited core clock max.

Brother @johnksss it looks like the temperature readings from 3DMark are a LOT lower on your GPU than mine are. It doesn't take more than 5-10°C to cause a pretty big drop in GPU core clocks, as we both know. I really hate that about modern GPUs. I wish they would hold their core max clock until 80°C like they did when things were still done right. Temperature target is essentially meaningless now because of how max core clocks are stair-stepped in stupid bins relating to temperature.

https://hwbot.org/submission/4972225_mr._fox_3dmark___time_spy_geforce_rtx_3090_23047_marks/

https://hwbot.org/submission/4972233_mr._fox_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_rtx_3090_43920_marks/

10 hours ago, johnksss said:

Yes, until you need it....I did that and forgot I had benchmarks saved. lol

I've given up on Port Royal for the time being. Things seem back to normal now. I can't get the clocks to hold, but they are at least holding steady again. Most of the time, 2175 is the highest clock I can get under load. It doesn't matter how high it starts, within a few seconds it is at 2175 and staying there through the end. I did get my best ever Time Spy and Fire Strike runs in last night, but Port Royal stays in the 15.5K range due to the limited core clock max.

I am pretty sure the reduction in clock speed is temperature related. You seem to be able to keep your GPU 20-25°C colder than I can get mine and that is more than enough temperature difference to be an impediment to GPU benchmark scores. The water in my loop is staying cold enough (if the digital meter is accurate) but the core is getting between 40-50°C. I may try different thermal pads and liquid metal to see if that helps. I used KPX at the last GPU repaste. The issues I had with leaking after cleaning the block and having the o-ring slipping out of place required that I take it apart three times before I could get the o-ring to seal again, so I could also have a pad out of place that is interfering with contact. But, I have noticed my CPU temps are also higher using KPX than they are using Phobya, Cryo or MX4. I like how easy KPX is to use, but so far it doesn't seem to be as effective at transferring the heat. Everything I have used it on (both desktops and laptop) have higher temperatures using KPX. It may be ideal for sub-zero cooling because it doesn't harden and crack.

9 hours ago, electrosoft said:

I need a couple of Windows 10 Pro licenses.  Where is the most inexpensive place to pick up a few?

I have purchased them a number of places, including eBay. I have purchased more from Kinguin.net than anywhere else. Sometimes a few bucks more than eBay, but always reliable (so far) for me.

https://www.kinguin.net/listing?active=0&hideUnavailable=0&phrase=windows&page=0&size=25&sort=bestseller.total,DESC

1 hour ago, johnksss said:

2 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

I must be missing something because the first picture you posted had clocks flatline in the 15,6K run posted earlier?

That is because I had boost locked. The core was set to 2250 but only held 2160. Without boost locked it varied between about 1950 and 2190 but constantly changing and always substantially lower clocks than expected 

1 hour ago, johnksss said:

Glad you got it sorted out in the end. Now keep going with the stock 520W bios and see what you can do with it. Pretty sure you can get to or beat your best score with it.

Me too. I hope so. Still need to verify it on chilled water at higher clocks first. But, it is definitely looking better.

6 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

I just don't get this. More voltage, less voltage, load clock sucks. Max core temp is under 40°C. Pretty much kills benching fun.

 

5 hours ago, johnksss said:

Oh, it will update that as well, just not with the right bios for it is all.

 

RTSS? Is that what you are using to boost fps or something?

 

 

This is on stock voltage as well.... So I would not just pass off the 520W vbios so easily....

5 hours ago, johnksss said:

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/74121956

4 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

I will turn it off when I am chasing numbers after I figure out how to get my GPU to perform as well or better than it used to and not drop clocks under load. It may be something at a hardware level because this behavior started when I disassembled and cleaned the Hydro Cooper. I didn't have the issue of not holding clocks under load before and it acts like it might be a thermal issue. It behaves like it would as the GPU gets hotter, not running on cold water, but none of the sensors suggest it is. This began before the change to Z690, so at least I don't have to wonder if it is something other than the GPU.

20 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

 

OK, here it is. It might have been those dip switches that I forgot about. Notice the GPU core clocks are a flat-line all the way across. I will know more when I fire up the chiller and see how it looks with an overclock, but that flat-line is how it used to look whether stock or up to my max stable 2250. It would stay exactly where I put it, or it would crash if it couldn't be pushed that far, but none of that retarded dynamic bouncy clocking bullcrap. I really don't like that spastic behavior at all, LOL... for CPU or GPU. 

 

It seems like that is what the problem was. So, all this time I haven't been benching because I thought something was messed up with my GPU and it turns out it was because I forgot about them silly dip switches. I guess that makes ME the DIP, LOL.

Here is a "hot" run (51°C with no chiller) using a heavy memory overclock and modest core overclock. Still static core clocks except for the 30MHz thermally induced drop in frequency. The sad part is, that is less than 700 3DMarks lower than my highest score achieved with the dip switches set to the "on" position.

2 hours ago, johnksss said:

Yes, that's is about exactly what mine looks like. Now set the watts to max and run a port royal bench and see where you land with that.

1 hour ago, Mr. Fox said:

I will do that later this evening. I am not at my computer right now. Just max the watts slider with PX1 and leave everything else on defaults?

OK, here it is. It might have been those dip switches that I forgot about. Notice the GPU core clocks are a flat-line all the way across. I will know more when I fire up the chiller and see how it looks with an overclock, but that flat-line is how it used to look whether stock or up to my max stable 2250. It would stay exactly where I put it, or it would crash if it couldn't be pushed that far, but none of that retarded dynamic bouncy clocking bullcrap. I really don't like that spastic behavior at all, LOL... for CPU or GPU.

34 minutes ago, johnksss said:

Yes, that's is about exactly what mine looks like. Now set the watts to max and run a port royal bench and see where you land with that.

I will do that later this evening. I am not at my computer right now. Just max the watts slider with PX1 and leave everything else on defaults?

13 minutes ago, johnksss said:

Hummmm, my switches are still set to default and I haven't went above 1.2V with classy tool either. I had just assumed that those were set to default already to rule them out.

 

Also check to make sure GPU is in fact running at X16 or X8 and not X4 or X1.

 

And maybe lift the GPU out of it's socket and place it back in place.

 

Edit:

And it could be memory as well....

I just totally spaced it off until now about the dip switches. I don't remember if I was on X570 Crosshair or Z590 Dark when I took the block apart for cleaning, but in either case that is when I changed them. At the time I thought, I should test this and see what changes. I got busy with other things and didn't do any benching for a while. Then when I came back to it all my scores were lower and the GPU core clocks were dropping like they never had before. 

I just pulled the GPU so I could see the dip switches and put them all back to the "off" position. So, two of the suggestions were handled in that one operation. GPU is running x16 4.0. Are your defaults in Classified and PX1 with the 520W vBIOS the same as this?

Boost Lock On:

Boost Lock Off (and Classified Tool reset after that change, since Boost Lock changes that in Classified):

11 minutes ago, johnksss said:

I would say, throw in a temp drive with fresh windows and only the nvidia driver, pe1 and port royal. and then see what it gets as a stock score.

 

I have been doing plenty of reinstalls as of late due to unforeseen stuff happening in the background. Might have to do another reinstall as we speak. lol

 

 

I may try that, but I have 2 versions of W10,  W11 and W7 and the behavior is the same on all of them. It is not only Port Royal, but all benchmarks right now. It is only coincidental that I am focusing on Port Royal, which is kind of ironic because it is the one I care the least about. All of the OSes are clean installs (in an effort to fix this, in fact).

I just remembered another change I made when I cleaned the block. I had totally forgotten about it. Actually two changes. I can try undoing both. One is the full back plate thermal pad. The other (which I will try first) is I set all of the dip switches to the optional position. That may be conflicting with using Classified and causing something unexpected. Are your dip switches set to factory defaults? I totally forgot about changing the dip switches. That could be it right there.

20 minutes ago, johnksss said:

Could be os related...

 

Side note. Mine have never ever held the over clock. 

If that is the case, maybe an "error" in assembly the first time I installed the Hydro Copper produced a favorable malfunction this was unfortunately corrected when I reassembled it after cleaning. Maybe I will get lucky and make the same "mistake" again, like over tightening a specific screw or shorting something out that causes it to malfunction in a highly desirable manner that neither EVGA nor NVIDIA intended. I hope so anyway. Sometimes malfunction is a good thing, LOL. Depends on whose definition applies.

I certainly don't like it how it is now. I haven't been very successful at GPU benchmarks since I cleaned it. Maybe just a remnant of my streak of bad luck. At least it still works. So I can be thankful I didn't have an accident that killed it like I did the 11900K or the golden 10900K I bought from Talon.

59 minutes ago, johnksss said:

That is just going to slow it down even further I'm afraid.

I will turn it off when I am chasing numbers after I figure out how to get my GPU to perform as well or better than it used to and not drop clocks under load. It may be something at a hardware level because this behavior started when I disassembled and cleaned the Hydro Cooper. I didn't have the issue of not holding clocks under load before and it acts like it might be a thermal issue. It behaves like it would as the GPU gets hotter, not running on cold water, but none of the sensors suggest it is. This began before the change to Z690, so at least I don't have to wonder if it is something other than the GPU.

23 minutes ago, johnksss said:

RTSS? Is that what you are using to boost fps or something?

Rivatuner Statistics Server OSD so I can see what the core clocks, power and voltage are doing during a benchmark run.

53 minutes ago, johnksss said:

What do you get if you bench using the 520W vbios?

About 1,000 points less now. Starting at 2265 on core, it runs about 1975 max and bounces around like a pinball with more than 520W vBIOS limit showing in RTSS OSD. Let me try lowering the voltage and see if it gets better or worse.

Edit 1:
Lowered voltage and that put me back were I was with the XOC vBIOS. About 15.5K in Port Royal. If I want to see 2100 on core, I have to set the offset for 2265 because the actual is about 150MHz less than what is requested or set. It seems like it NEVER does what you tell it to. You always get less so need to demand more than you expect. (Gee, that sounds like almost every area of life now, LOL. If you want something barely good enough you have to demand more and have ludicrous expectations.)

Edit 2: 
So it looks like the new way is to figure out have much false information you have to use with PX1 just to get the GPU to pull a half-assed run without going too far beyond what works and what wont. Nice. (not really) I guess it's time to start over on learning what I can get away with. I just wish I knew what changed with the XOC vBIOS no longer holding boost clocks under load. I liked that a WHOLE LOT better than this gamer-boy vBIOS crap.

8 minutes ago, johnksss said:

No problem. Just don't try it for the 1K though.😂

I am not sure that even shows as an option. That, or I just stopped looking at the Re-Bar tab because I didn't care. I ignore almost everything that is made for gaming unless I think it offers something that might bump my benchmark scores. I don't game enough to really care anymore. If there is any thought that it might hurt my benchmark scores (crap like G-Stink) then it's not only no, but hell no, LOL.

Just now, johnksss said:

Updating the 520W and 480W is easy. Just load it up and let Precision updated it for you.

I just remembered that and did it. Thanks. That's pretty handy.

7 minutes ago, johnksss said:

What do you get if you bench using the 520W vbios?

I don't know. Never tried it. I've basically ignored anything other than the XOC firmware since the day Vince sent it because my benchmarks are all pulling way beyond 520W.

I have tried tons of different drives and it doesn't seem to be driver related.

Is there a 520W with rebar support? I will give it a shot and see if it is the same, better or worse.

I just don't get this. More voltage, less voltage, load clock sucks. Max core temp is under 40°C. Pretty much kills benching fun.