Mr. Fox

On 10/30/2022 at 2:28 PM, Etern4l said:

Second of all, do we have any independent reliable (sic!) data on motherboard reliability? I guess not.

My independent experience is reliable enough for me. 100% of my expensive enthusiast ASUS motherboards have experienced catastrophic failures under warranty, including a fire and one that killed the best binned 10900KF I have ever seen when it failed. In every case it took those losers more than a month to replace it. The CPU "wasn't their problem" so that was an even more expensive motherboard when that loss is counted. Coincidentally, I have replaced every ASUS motherboard that failed with an EVGA motherboard that never failed.

The closest thing I could identify as an EVGA motherboard failure is the Q-code LED burning out on the Z590 Dark, which was a common issue. EVGA replaced it under warranty swiftly, with no hassles, questions or insinuations that I did something that caused it (like ASUS). I dialed their phone number, spoke to a person (a Californian with English as his native language) and explained the situation, and had an RMA number and pre-paid shipping label the same day. I sold it because it was worthless for Windows 7 (ACPI incompatibilities). Good luck getting anything that remotely resembles acceptable customer service from another brand. 

I will say that my inexpensive ASUS gamerboy motherboards (Prime and Strix) have been reliable. Only their enthusiast-grade products have been unreliable, which seems totally counter-intuitive. Other than functional limitations for severe overclocking, which they are not intended for, I have had a great experience with those less expensive mid-range products.

My Z690 Dark was $399. I didn't buy it when it was new to market. Early adopters always pay more than things are worth. That applies to products at each price point. EVGA has great sales. My 3060 Ti FTW3 was $200 less from them than I could buy it anywhere else. 

I do hope the rumors that they are going out of business are false because they are the only brand I have confidence in. I was sad they stopped building GPUs for selfish reasons. I have purchased their GPUs almost exclusively, and now I will have to settle for something inferior with another brand. I do not believe anything Jensen has to say on the subject is accurate because he lies about everything. I am glad they stopped building GPUs for the reasons EVGA stated they have, and I would believe them before I believed anything Jensen would say. He is going to say whatever he thinks make him and NVIDIA look better, and that's his job. He probably wouldn't keep his job if he were completely honest. 

5 minutes ago, Clamibot said:

 

Oh joy! Intel has gone full retard as well! Who's next?

 

It's like every company whose products I like are one by one going full retard in an effort to make me not want to buy anything from them anymore.

Easy enough to understand. One retard begats another. When the vast majority of the people buying your products are as stupid as a box of rocks, you can get away with a lot of unacceptable behavior and you don't have to be the sharpest tool in the shed to know that they're not about to go an extra mile for anyone. The modern approach is to do just barely enough to be acceptable, then back the dial up one notch short of success. But, call it a success because the sheeple will believe you.

26 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

You pay a significant premium for this, so depending on the usage patterns realized reliability of MSI/Asus, the better customer care may or may not be worth it (for me EVGA was out right away with just one PCIe slot on the Kingpin). For a hardcore OCer likely to fry things, paying the premium might make sense (but such customers are generally terrible business for EVGA).

 

At this point, the overall EVGA situation needs to be taken into account as well, unfortunately. Looks a bit like they are closing shop or scaling down significantly. No Z790 mobo for instance, their flagship PSU SuperNova T2 is marked as EOL by some retailers, no new model is advertised etc.

No, not really compared to other equivalent product. EVGA is actually not only better, but more affordable than the top end MSI and ASUS motherboards, that are grossly overpriced and very unreliable. You can't compare apples to oranges.  I'm just not OK with paying $700+ for a motherboard that takes 4 to 6 weeks (or longer) to get replaced under warranty when it fails. Companies that handle things that way suck more than words can say.

1 hour ago, tps3443 said:

I kinda started feeling that way over the EVGA motherboards lately. little issues here and there. Nothing too crazy.

The only EVGA product that I never liked was the Z590 Dark. It was also the only EVGA product I ever owned that had issues. On the basis that your most recent experience was with Z590 I would have to agree. Z590 was kind of an abortion for Intel in general.

42 minutes ago, tps3443 said:

Before even giving it a chance, I was seriously considering the Z690 Dark, or Z790 Dark. But I swear this MSI Unity X board is too good. 

I loved the MSI Unify-X. But, I sold it to you and kept the EVGA board. I guess that tells you which one I think is better of the two. The trouble with ASUS and MSI (most of the others, too) is their products are only good when they work. When they stop working, you regret having given them your money. They'll treat you like a pile of dung. No worries with EVGA. A great product backed by a not-great company gives me pause. Unify-X is a great product. I do not think of MSI as being a great company.

I have owned one A$$Rock mobo and one Gigabutt mobo, and that was enough to cure me of wanting anything to do with either of the brands. Maybe that is too harsh and throwing the baby out with the bath water, but I work hard for my money and purchasing high-end products always represents a personal sacrifice. I don't appreciate it when I discover that I spent my money on a piece of trash, and I am generally reluctant to forgive it and allow for second chances. Sometimes I do, but it is because there is something compelling about the item that makes giving a second chance something that might benefit me, not because I am an overall nice guy and want to give them another chance to earn my trust. I am a super nice guy that extends forgiveness too easily when it comes to relationship with individuals, but I harbor resentment a long time when the other party is a business. Probably because I know they don't actually give a damn about me. That being the case, they don't deserve the second chance. They're not worthy of me or my money.

18 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

Anyways, I still think they’re special. Only because they are Hynix A-Die and awesome so far. 

I agree with that part. It's not the brand, it is the silicon that makes them special. And, the fact that A-die is overpriced and uncommon also makes them special. At some point in the near future it may become very ordinary like Samsung B-die was. B-die was and still is special to the extent it was better than all other DDR4 options, but not special in terms of being rare or unique among enthusiasts.

I will grab some A-die Hynix later on, after the cost:benefit ratio makes more sense. I definitely want it, but right now I would view it as being a frivolous purchase compared to M-die I already have that overclocks almost as well, but not quite. If I didn't already own M-die then it would make sense to pay extra for A-die.

2 hours ago, tps3443 said:

 

You are absolutely right! I turned my fan off and they started erroring of out within 45 seconds with no fan. I saw the temps hit 44C then maybe 45C and errors started popping up left and right. I BSODed before I could even close the HCI Memtest. They were already under load for 1hr+ prior to removing the fan.

 

I reduced voltage to 1.400V and temps are even lower now. And stable in HCI Memtest have not tried again without a fan. But, I’m gonna just leave the fan for sure 😂
 

DDR5 needs a fan like our CPU’s need thermal paste LOL. 
 

I may consider water cooling my ram. And then remove the fan to prevent all that dust build up. DDR5 is awesome though! I love it. Very fast. Very stable “With a fan” 🤣

Anyways, I still think they’re special. Only because they are Hynix A-Die and awesome so far. 

 

I have the same issues with DDR4, but they are less obvious running at roughly half the clock speed. It takes more stress to overheat the DDR4, but it still happens.  A lot of people don't believe me when I tell them their memory is overheating at 45-50°C and that is why their system is unstable, not because the memory is defective. At such a low temperature it seems hard to believe, but it is totally accurate.

TeamGroup Delta memory was really good, but because I decided to go with aftermarket heat sinks and water cooling having anything with RGB makes no sense. The RGB LEDs also do not help matters. They generate heat of their own that contributes to the thermal management problem, and if I am going to cover up the LEDs with thick aluminum plates there is no  point in having it. Given that I don't need or use XMP profiles, going with generic naked green PCB was the most intelligent move, and it costs less.

If you decide to remove the heatsinks on the memory you have, let me know and I will explain the super-easy way how to get them off without causing any damage. If you try to peel them off chances are very good you will destroy the memory. I know two people who tore memory chips off their PCB because the adhesives they use to attach them are stronger than the components they are attached to.

If you find you do not need a fan it will be an exception to the norm.

There is nothing special about the modules or their beauty covers. As I said, I have had three Delta kits and they all suffer from the same thing that their competitors do: a crappy heating blanket they call a heat sink. They run hotter with the "heatsink" than they do with nothing. The extra space between the sticks didn't change the temperatures for me. Temperatures were exactly the same in either mobo. With a fan blowing on them they run cool (32-35°C running memory stress tests). If I turned the fan off they couldn't finish a TM5 test without errors. @johnksssand I were talking one day and he wasn't sure the fan was making a difference for his G.SKILL modules. He turned the fan off while we wre talking and his memory overheated and Windows crashed.

Just now, tps3443 said:

 

Hey, this T-Force A-Die runs crazy cool!

 

I just have it at XMP 7200 C34, tFAW 16, and 262K+ tREFI. So far I’ve gone 1HR as of typing this. I even have the voltage increased from 1.400 to 1.435V. And it runs 37-39C. Just a fan blowing on it. 
 

(16) iterations of HCI Memtest. 

This is the same OC profile that does around 260 watts max through R23 (30 Minute)

 

new england farm workers

 

 

Yeah that's typical with the fan blowing on them. That does wonders. It helps that you're on an open bench as well because the fans are pushing cooler air over them. If I take the side panels off of my case they run even cooler than they do with it closed up in a hot air accumulator.

Take the fan away and cover them with the towel so that there's no cool air around them and watch what happens LOL. I've had three of those kits and they are exactly the same as the other brands. The heatsinks that the manufacturers put on them are absolute joke. They are actually nothing more than beautification covers that trap heat. "Pigs in the blanket" is what I call it. Removing the beauty covers helps as well.

1 hour ago, tps3443 said:

 

Yeah shipping is high from them. Kinda like performance PC’s too if you spend less than $99 dollars that is. Those (2) adapter fittings I ordered for my water chiller are like $6.99 each, whenever I ordered two of them for $13.99, the shipping was $17.55 LOL. 

When it comes to purchasing, especially with low cost items that have little profit margin, it is almost impossible for the rest of the world to compete with Amazon because almost everything they sell includes free delivery. Shipping prices have never been more out of control than they are now, probably due to the cost of fuel. I'm sure it makes it harder for small businesses to stay afloat, along with all of the other brandonomics that have royally screwed things up.

4 hours ago, tps3443 said:

Y’all check out this thermal paste!!

 

Thermal conductivity 17 W/mk

 

I ordered some, I’ll let you know how it is once delivered. I can tell it’s crazy hard to spread like TFX probably even worse. 
 

Trying to tune out this 13900K to as little power and heat as possible while only gaining in performance. I was playing Doom Eternal capped at 165 fps earlier and my max cpu power was 60 watts 😎

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Alphacool-Apex-Thermal-Grease-13036/dp/B0B51C4KHL/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1HOMWSPKTO5CO&keywords=Alphacool+Apex&qid=1667096364&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIwLjAwIiwicXNhIjoiMC4wMCIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ%3D%3D&s=electronics&sprefix=alphacool+apex%2Celectronics%2C316&sr=1-1

Better price here. If you like it and want to order more, this might be a better option if shipping cost doesn't eat up the savings. https://modmymods.com/alphacool-apex-17w-mk-thermal-grease-4g.html

I total forgot how much I like Nita...

For those of you that like small systems and don't loathe air cooling, the rig it this guy's signature is very cool. It looks like a speaker or amplifier box with a mini-ITX inside of it. Pretty creative idea that looks neat even though I don't think I would like owning it. The specs are pretty unimpressive, but it looks great as a novelty build.

5 minutes ago, johnksss said:

You got me there. I was more looking at the delid tool they made for it along with the direct die frame.

Yeah, both of them are nice products. Especially the delid tool. Very well engineered.

I hope he makes a die frame for 12th and 13th Gen Intel. I would love to ditch the IHS. I really miss running bare die.

21 minutes ago, johnksss said:

 

I wonder if a 7600X is a defective CPU with a dead CCX that can't be sold as the part it was originally intended to be. Rather than throwing it away, they sell it as a cheaper, less powerful processor.

5 hours ago, Papusan said:

Why not just reduce the price for the Cpu and MB and let the people determine themself what memory kit they want to buy?

 

You Will Get A Free 32 GB DDR5-5600 Kit & $50 US Off AM5 Motherboards If Your Purchase An AMD Ryzen 7000 CPU At Microcenter
https://wccftech.com/get-a-free-32-gb-ddr5-5600-kit-50-usd-off-am5-motherboards-purchase-amd-ryzen-7000-cpu-microcenter/

It is obvious from the direction that technology is heading (downward) that a lot of people are ignorant, lazy, or both, and prefer to let someone else make all of their decisions for them. This is reflected in their hardware, software and operating system choices. Many people do not overclock anything. I have met a fair number of folks that would proudly tell you they are a tech enthusiast that don't know what overclocking is. Some of them still think of it as a sinful behavior that is always harmful or breaks things. 

Many probably don't care if the memory is fast or average as long as the computer boots and runs without errors, and they value the fact that it is "free" more than whether or not it is the fastest kit.

2 hours ago, Papusan said:

Btw. What you think about the airflow direction on the fans below the fried 4090? Why use the bottom fans as  exhaust fans? So he could smell the smoke faster?

Maybe the person that built the system wanted to pull air away from the GPU rather than pushing cooler fresh air to it. Some people act like they really hate their expensive computer parts. but I think it is often a matter of ignorance or poor judgment.

18 minutes ago, Rage Set said:

 

 

That sucks bro, I'm sorry. I don't normally get the extended warranty on these cards because I don't own many of them for that long and it wouldn't transfer to a new owner anyway (unless I know them well and send it for repair on my behalf). Hopefully you can get it fixed. 

I appreciate the condolences, but there's nothing for you to be sorry about. You blessed me with a great GPU at a wonderful price and there hasn't been a moment of dissatisfaction with it. The only reason it's not still working  flawlessly is my fault. I accidentally knocked my tower over while cleaning my office. When I turned it back on it had this problem. I'm thinking (hoping) that the shock of it getting slammed with a heavy waterblock bolted to it simply fractured a tiny ball of solder, and hoping it will make easier to repair than something that failed due to fatigue or electrical malfunction.

There's a really sad element to that if you're an enthusiast when you stop and think about it. As consumer contentment grows with largely untunable cookie cutter crap that is a one size fits all solution gains traction with the zombie horde, the options to choose something special continue to slowly evaporate. Loss of user control and an increase in creator autonomy go unpunished. It is interesting that sheeple are so lazy that they are willing to pay extra for something they have less ability to control or enhance.

26 minutes ago, jaybee83 said:

thanks again for the software pointers bro Fox, unfortunately MSI Dragon Ball doesnt play BALL (pun intended) with my 7950X 😄 

Dragon Ball works on my Asus mobos (present and past) not EVGA (present or past) but only Intel platforms. Dragon Power is a proprietary MSI-only product.

5 hours ago, tps3443 said:

With how advanced these new 13900K’s are. Using the newest Intel XTU is really the way to go with overclocking. It’s quite advanced! And user friendly. Plus, you are able to get peak potential from the cpu by leaving nothing on the table. 
 

I don’t use their auto tuning or anything. But manually overclocking with XTU is really awesome. It gives such great control over everything including the timings in real time. 
 

And I’m not having to jump in and out of the bios lol. 

Man, you're missing out using XTU brother. It's handy, yes, very, but it is a virus that consumes system resources and impairs performance. It adds extra services to your Windows installation.

You should be using Dragon Power and Dragon Ball for CPU and memory tuning. If the version I have works for 13th Gen you'll be set. Dragonball works on my ASUS Strix for memory tuning in Windows. Both programs work really well for me, especially Dragon Ball. Neither of them consumes resources like XTU does. When you apply settings and close them, there is nothing left running and neither one of them are modern UWP filth. They are "portable" apps that work on Windows 7.

MSI Dragon Ball1.0.0.08.zipMSI Dragon Power1.0.0.6-intel.zip

OK, so I think this is going to be my daily driver overclock profile. Temps are OK without the chiller. That Sabrent kit was definitely better than the other generic kit. Runs 7200 with tight timings very stable.

I finally got around to testing the 2080 Ti with MATS and it has a failing RAM module (B0). I thoroughly cleaned and inspected the card and it looks like new otherwise, but I haven't done any probing. I am tempted to try a reflow on that one chip with my hot air station to see if it fixes it, but I probably should send it off for repair. It is still too good of a GPU to just kick it to the curb. Probably has many more years of service left if I fix it. @Rage SetI registered the card at EVGA and it is out of warranty. It has served me well and taken no prisoners in battle, too early for retirement.

mats version 400.184.  Testing TU102 with 20 MB of memory starting with 0 MB.

Read    Error Count: 0
Write   Error Count: 717805
Unknown Error Count: 0

=== MEMORY ERRORS BY SUBPARTITION ===
SUBPART READ ERRORS WRITE ERRORS UNKNOWN ERRS
------- ----------- ------------ ------------
FBIOA0            0            0            0
FBIOA1            0            0            0
FBIOB0            0       717805            0
FBIOB1            0            0            0
FBIOC0            0            0            0
FBIOC1            0            0            0
FBIOD0            0            0            0
FBIOD1            0            0            0
FBIOE0            0            0            0
FBIOE1            0            0            0
FBIOF0            0            0            0
FBIOF1            0            0            0

Failing Bits: 
   B000 B001 B002 B003 B004 B005 B006 B007 B008 B009 B010 B011 B012 B013 B014 B015 

=== MEMORY ERRORS BY BIT ===
P : Partition (FBIO)
                                            READ 0 READ 1 READ ?
P BIT READ ERRORS WRITE ERRORS UNKNOWN ERRS EXP. 1 EXP. 0 EXP. ?
- --- ----------- ------------ ------------ ------ ------ ------
B 000           0       776620            0 595624 180996      0
B 001           0       688440            0 271326 417114      0
B 002           0       806002            0 655095 150907      0
B 003           0       776706            0 180896 595810      0
B 004           0       688386            0 417028 271358      0
B 005           0       747347            0 210980 536367      0
B 006           0       688395            0 417049 271346      0
B 007           0       776663            0 180955 595708      0
B 008           0       629617            0 298088 331529      0
B 009           0       747307            0 211014 536293      0
B 010           0       776535            0 595472 181063      0
B 011           0       747350            0 210957 536393      0
B 012           0       776594            0 595601 180993      0
B 013           0       747319            0 211022 536297      0
B 014           0       688416            0 417131 271285      0
B 015           0       659160            0 301303 357857      0

report.txt

16 minutes ago, tps3443 said:

Looks really great. Bump those E-Cores just a tap and you’ll be there! 
 

How do you like the 13900K? I did not own a 12900K but it does seem like a worthy improvement. 
 

After I bought those parts from you, I was tempted a few times to go after 12th Gen. But it was worth the wait for 13th.

I might be able to push them  some more, but the E-cores are the weakest link on this CPU. Yes, it was a nice upgrade from 12900K/KS. MOAR CORE is seldom something to complain about.

32 minutes ago, Etern4l said:

 

I recall playing around with static voltage initially with a lot of instability as a result for some reason. The contact frame actually improved things quite a bit, so maybe worth giving this another try. 

The offset mode yields stable results for pure undervolting + minor E-core OC purposes at least. The problem is I need the settings to be super stable, so testing cycles are kind of slow resulting in inertia and reluctance to tweak further 🙂

 

The best way to keep your CPU stable is to give it more voltage or undervolt less. That is assuming you can keep it cool, of course. Stock voltage is usually too much. Using adaptive voltage gives an impression of success, but the fact is that allows the CPU to do what it wants to. If I am too stingy with voltage, static voltage is not stable for me either. You usually can't set static voltage to a value seen using adaptive voltage or it will be unstable. The part that you can't see is what the voltage is doing between sensor polling cycles.

Speaking of more voltage... The issue with 7200 stability was the bin quality of the memory was inferior, so my better kit is fine at 7200. I've installed the better M-die kit.