win32asmguy
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Everything posted by win32asmguy
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What is the best way to determine how leaky a chip is? It would be nice if I could find a 12900k that is better than the new HX BGA chips. Although with the vapor chamber and higher power limits that may be a tall order. Still need to post that WTB for a good chip. If I offered $1000 I could probably find someone willing to part with one. It would be even better if Eurocom would publish a bios update with the MUX and undervolting available. Although at the moment they don't even have the Raptor X15 listed on their site so maybe stock of all configurations has dried up.
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Looks like there will also be GE77Hx and GE67Hx, similar to the GE76 and GE66, but with 12800HX. Pricing appears to be lower than the GT77. Not much information about them so far but they may be released either June 6th at the MSIology event alongside the GT77 or June 1st according to some Amazon pre-order date.
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Sure, at this point most manufacturers value thinness over performance and/or noise. Even worse marketing departments are instructed to push this as a feature so we have a whole new generation of consumers who believe nothing else. A true enthusiast DTR would only ship with a throwaway LGA processor for the purpose of verifying the motherboard is functional. Anything truely high end isn't something that can be mass produced and the individual user would have to find/settle on how good a bin CPU they use. It would also have overbuilt, separate cooling systems for CPU and GPU so you can push as far as someone might with an air cooled desktop. The bios would also allow desktop level configuration so tuning is possible without any additional OS software, certainly not manufacturer provided software. You would also not be forced into specific tiers of CPU+GPU. Want an i9 and only need an RTX 3060? that combo won't be available and you either have to accept the inferior CPU or overpay for an idling GPU. Anything less is actually just an overpriced computer "appliance", not really a DTR.
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Unfortunately a 12900kf is a no go as the laptop screen needs the iGFX. I got a Newegg 12900k in, this one is slightly faster than the others. CBR23 multi 21891 without an undervolt. This one is the first I have tested that is an older batch, V141 as opposed to all of the others which are X202+. With this one wattage peaks at 129.1, so a bit higher than the others. I guess that means it has a higher VF curve if the EC has a 90A limit. I am unsure about measuring the pressure. It does seem to be less than what I have seen with the NH-D15S on my desktop. The max temp range has generally been no more than 5C on the P-cores in situations when its not thermal throttling (max fans, P+e cores enabled, on a laptop stand, ambient temp 65F). I have used nanogrease extreme before but it was pretty viscous. When you apply it do you just do a bead on the IHS, or try to spread with the spatula?
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Maybe the low pull 12900k are also going to 12900hx BGA packaged chips, too? Shame Intel doesn't have an LGA SKU targeting that type of bin for HTPC type purposes. I could exchange the 12900k for a 12900ks at Micro Center. They have them for $180 more. Also what is considered the best non-LM paste for IHS to heatsink applications? I am running low on Thermalright TFX so looking at ordering more of something. I have heard Kryonaut degrades above 80C so not considering that even though Micro Center carries it.
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Lots of good stuff here. I am curious about choosing Kryonaut. I have heard before it breaks down over 80C so long term it doesn't hold up well in laptops. Is that the case here? I have used Thermalright TFX so far with mine. Also have Cooler Master Mastergel Maker as it was the only decent option Micro Center had in stock when I was there. Going through a lot of paste trying out all these CPUs. Got another 12900k on order from Newegg tomorrow. I hope it is a better, or even worse performer. Each of the 12900k and locked 12900 have been with 1% performance of each other. I would suspect I had gotten a better or worse one by now. I hope the bios does not have some weird lock on how it reads the factory VF Curve on the CPU. For RAM I am using a HyperX DDR4-3200 CL20 dual rank 32GB Micron E-die kit. Not the fastest but its better than most generic RAM and quite stable in the system which is useful as I am focusing on the CPU right now.
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I take it you are trying to flash via FPTW? Or using a SPI programmer directly? FPTW would need Config lock disabled, and it sometimes takes multiple applications + reboots to get the setting to stick. Signing certificates are probably for secure boot.
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I picked up another 12900k from Micro Center today. Sadly it does not perform any better than the previous one from Best Buy. I guess I could try one from Newegg next.
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Sweet, will be glad to hear results. If anything practicing a delid on the 12600 is probably better than a good bin 12900k, it would be horrible to destroy a good one if an accident happened with the delid. Oh, BTW, Clevo posted some updated drivers, here: https://www.clevo.com.tw/clevo_down.asp?lang=en Just select the NH55JNN model from the dropdown.
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The Eurocom bios is modified compared to the stock Clevo bios. Still not as much options as Prema, but more than Clevo offers by default. @jaybee83 If you happen to decide to pick up a K series CPU, and dump the setup options for this older bios, and disable the overclocking lock, I would be curious if undervolting P-cache doesn't trigger a crash on your system. The BGA HX chips aren't particularly special, if they were excellent bin's then it could score ~24000 CBR23 at 125W as well, correct?
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BIOS 1.07.05RPCS1 / EC 1.07.04, dated 4/16/2022. I think the newer bios has higher CPU temp throttling limits as it can sustain over 90C without dropping PL1. I haven't been able to get the GPU to boost above 115W, even in performance mode with PL1/PL2 capped to 45W and trying a few different drivers. Does yours go up to 140W? For BGA models I would be more interested in the Dell Precision 7770 with 12900HX and 3080Ti, even with it needing the CAMM memory modules.
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Which bios version did pcs ship? Was there good ihs contact after changing the pads? Also curious if yours does have the mux option in the bios.
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Yeah just 3.70. Did you find an issue with it? I only really used it to set the keyboard backlighting then uninstalled. I did notice that the profile switcher always thought the system was in entertainment mode. No fingerprint sensor. I took mine with me on a flight with two connections yesterday. Way easier to travel with than the X170 and get through security. You can't really even tell it has an LGA CPU.
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Yeah, I will try a 12900k from Micro Center next week and go from there. Still undecided on the Z690 board as I need to figure out what I would want to do with it after the testing.
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Yep. My other thought was just to send my locked 12900 over to rockitcool for a copper relid for $70, then just post a perpetual WTB binned 12900k on some forums in hopes that someone might want to move to a KS or in preparation for RPL.
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Thanks for all the testing and insight. Sounds like it will probably take going through many chips to find a good one. It's too bad the 12900ks does not help the chances, I would happily pay $200 more for one if it could be a good performer at 125W. I am also worried that a higher percentage of good 12900k chips are destined to be sold as 12900ks now so Intel can profit more from them...
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I could also pick up a motherboard from Micro Center to try and better test these CPU's. I have all of the other parts for such a test bench although the NH-D15S may still be a limiter. Tomorrow BGA Alder Lake HX CPU's should be announced as well, so we may have a couple tech influencer reviews showing how performance compares. I keep meaning to run Geekbench to see how it compared to a leaked Legion 7i with 12900hx. Although with the prices for 12900hk I would not be surprised to see most of these potential models to be over $3500 even with 3070ti.
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The fans are quieter than the X170KM. They do not "stair step" as they are ramping up and down. The CPU seems to always be running even with package temp under 40C at idle. I think the fans may be of higher quality too so pushing more CFM at lower noise. Undervolting helps even more but not really something viable for day to day use unless those e-cores are disabled. Also so far I do not think any of the Linux undervolting utilities have added Alder Lake support. On ongoing issue I have not mentioned so far is that in Windows 10 the internal speakers are not so great. There is a supplemental package related to Sound Blaster Cinema 6 which won't install on Win10. Any success with the H660 motherboard? I thought maybe about picking up a different 12900K from Micro Center next week to see if its any better than the one from Best Buy.
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157W is pretty high. With a good 12900HX, quality paste job, and undervolting it should have no problem exceeding even the 23000 CBR23 multicore score I can get with the new Clevo DTR and a 12900k limited to 125W. It will be fun to see some results when they are out.
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Yeah I think its a bios bug. To clarify further if I set Core offset it does show the value as applied (and persists across warm reboots) but when running a benchmark there is no change in observed voltage, load core ratios, or score. If I set even -1mV to P Cache, it crashes, reboots and now shows lower voltage under load, higher ratios and higher score. Oh, and just to rule out software I tried uninstalling XTU, and also tried applying the undervolt via the QuickCPU utility where it also crashed only applying P Cache offset.
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Glad to hear Prema is aware of this model. So I actually do not have the virtualization stuff enabled already in Windows 10 21H2. I have determined the crash is related to adjust CPU P Cache only - so adjusting CPU Core or CPU E Cache does not trigger the crash. Oddly enough, if you don't adjust P Cache to any offset value then any Core undervolting applied does not take effect either. Maybe a weird bug with Throttlestop + H670? I am curious what @electrosoft's good bin 12900k scores at 125W PL1/PL2, just as a baseline against what mine is doing.
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Just the tools linked in the guide. You can see the setup menu dump in the earlier post: Keep in mind that the offsets may be different if you have a different bios version on your machine from PCS, best to just dump it from your own machine to ensure things will work. The one from Eurocom was already very recent, built 4/16/2022 which was just a few days before mine shipped. It also has some interesting stuff in it, like options to configure four e-core clusters instead of just two, which may mean Raptor Lake support is be baked into the feature set with a microcode update. It would be funny if we could put one of those in to this machine on release day.
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It will persist through warm boots, but is lost if you cold boot (maybe standby/resume as well). So far I have not found a bios option that can store a known stable undervolt (as you might do using a real desktop H670 board). Here is the EFI commands that must be run to allow undervolting via Throttlestop: # based on Eurocom Raptor X15 BIOS 1.07.05RPCS1 / EC 1.07.04 dump setup_var CpuSetup 0x43 0x0 # disable Config Lock setup_var CpuSetup 0x10e 0x0 # disable Overclocking Lock setup_var CpuSetup 0x1d9 0x1 # enable Overclocking Feature Here is a good blog post explaining the whole process, but you can start at Step 5 to make a bootable USB to modify the variables. Note that if you ever get a black screen from modifying things you can always remove the main and backup battery, and hold the power button down for 30 seconds to reset to factory defaults. https://brendangreenley.com/undervolting-2020-dell-laptops-like-the-vostro-7500-and-more-tips-to-improve-thermals-battery-life-and-speed/#cpu-undervolt
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It does appear to be a bug of some sort. I eventually realized that even when it crashes after applying an undervolt, the value is still set after reboot and the system is stable. So 23,200 is possible in that scenario with CBR23 with a -90mV on core and P-cache with P-cores around 4ghz and 125W draw and max fans active with the system on a laptop stand, and the 3070Ti active at idle clocks just to drive my external display. CCC is not very useful. It can set keyboard backlight colors, switch performance profiles, or adjust the fan curve. I think the better, aftermarket heatsink could be a real possibility. If Clevo had added an extra mDP wired to the iGPU I would be much happier with forced hybrid graphics. I want all connected displays driven by the same GPU to simply the software configuration on Windows and Linux. I doubt Clevo will make a 17 inch variant of this model. It would likely be an X170 refresh with its own different limitations.
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Any offset causes causes an instant crash. I tried -5mV, also even +5mV causes a crash as well. It only crashes if e-cores are enabled. If I could have Clevo change anything on this chassis it would be to make a variant with no Nvidia, make the USB-C support Thunderbolt 4, and put an excellent 6-pipe to dual fan cooling solution so going to 200W could be done with a Z690 chipset and full overclocking support and a binned chip, and a larger battery. I know most people want a GPU, but I still wish there was a CPU-focused DTR like this.
